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Remember guys, this is the general discussion thread. Keep whine/QQ posts in the appropriate QQ memorial thread! Thanks! |
On March 20 2012 15:02 Tooplark wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 14:49 PeZuY wrote:
I wish Shaco was nerfed a bit more, such a silly character. Or then it's just that I can't counter it ever. What do you do against Shaco? A couple things you can do: Figure out if he's starting red or blue. Try and get your team to invade his jungle. Even if you just pop his boxes and get out, you'll slow him down a lot. Watch out for level 2 ganks, especially if you're close to the buff camp he started at. Ward aggressively in his jungle. If you're jungling yourself, and you feel secure doing so, go counterjungle him. Time his buffs and take them yourself. Basically, even if Shaco gets 2-3 kills by the time laning is over, he's still dead weight in teamfights if your team doesn't totally hurp things around.
Thank you, will try those next time!
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
On March 20 2012 14:49 PeZuY wrote:
I wish Shaco was nerfed a bit more, such a silly character. Or then it's just that I can't counter it ever. What do you do against Shaco?
Avoid blind pick like the plague. Always ban. Solves every problem.
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It turns out Noc may be a lot stronger than I thought he was.
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I'm still really sad about Irelia nerfs, but the game I just had...
Sat in the middle of a team fight with her, killed the AD carry and then 2v1'd Udyr and Kat. God she is so strong. =\
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I'm gonna be rolling AP blitz all over again, hell yes that shit is fun
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On March 20 2012 15:02 Tooplark wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 14:49 PeZuY wrote:
I wish Shaco was nerfed a bit more, such a silly character. Or then it's just that I can't counter it ever. What do you do against Shaco? A couple things you can do: Figure out if he's starting red or blue. Try and get your team to invade his jungle. Even if you just pop his boxes and get out, you'll slow him down a lot. Watch out for level 2 ganks, especially if you're close to the buff camp he started at. Ward aggressively in his jungle. If you're jungling yourself, and you feel secure doing so, go counterjungle him. Time his buffs and take them yourself. Basically, even if Shaco gets 2-3 kills by the time laning is over, he's still dead weight in teamfights if your team doesn't totally hurp things around.
Yeah, totally this. Figure out what buff he starts will help you alot. And always assume that he will gank at level 2 esp if he start red. Ward accordingly. If Shaco can't get some kills early he sucks in mid-late game. But you need a team effort to shut down Shaco, if its only you and your team derp, there is nothing you can do.
On March 20 2012 15:29 Cloud9157 wrote:
I'm still really sad about Irelia nerfs, but the game I just had...
Sat in the middle of a team fight with her, killed the AD carry and then 2v1'd Udyr and Kat. God she is so strong. =\
They only nerf her lane phase. In team fight its her passive that really shine. No one can CC her, and well thats it 
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On March 20 2012 14:45 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 14:41 UniversalSnip wrote:On March 20 2012 14:17 Craton wrote:On March 20 2012 13:52 Ryuu314 wrote:
if they nerf shen's ult range he'll be 100% unplayed. You mean like how TF, Panth, and Noct are 100% unplayed? Please. It's not really the same. Shen ult is really reactive, tf panth and noct ult you can go gank a lane with. If instead of shielding it did something that helped a gank, like ccing enemies next to the target, a range nerf wouldn't hurt that badly. Shen can taunt someone near to the teammate as soon as he ports . . . Unless you mean cc as soon as shen's ult which will never happen because it has no counterplay.
There's not really any counterplay to noct ult either.
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Olaf looking better than ever with those item changes.
The Life Steal nerfs don't effect Olaf nearly as much as it does most other AD bruisers. And the MoM was basically tailor-made for Olaf, with that +1 damage per missing health syncing perfectly with Olaf's passive. Olaf gonna be FOTM.
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On March 20 2012 16:24 Leporello wrote:
Olaf looking better than ever with those item changes.
The Life Steal nerfs don't effect Olaf nearly as much as it does most other AD bruisers. And the MoM was basically tailor-made for Olaf, with that +1 damage per missing health syncing perfectly with Olaf's passive. Olaf gonna be FOTM.
Life steal nerf was essentially a buff to all the bruisers with innate sustain, on top lane.
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Jax
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Grandmaster's Might (New Active): Jax gains 25/35/45 (+30% of his bonus attack damage) armor and 25/35/45 (+20% of his ability power) magic resist for 8 seconds. 100 mana, 80 second cooldown.
Does "bonus attack damage" and "ability power" (is that total or bonus too?) include runes and masteries? If so, should he take offense over defense in runes and masteries now?
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well any bonus ap you have is total ap lol. and yes it includes runes and masteries. and i'd say no on runing completely offensively because you only get the bonus on an activation
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On March 20 2012 16:38 grs wrote:Show nested quote +Jax
[...]
Grandmaster's Might (New Active): Jax gains 25/35/45 (+30% of his bonus attack damage) armor and 25/35/45 (+20% of his ability power) magic resist for 8 seconds. 100 mana, 80 second cooldown. Does "bonus attack damage" and "ability power" (is that total or bonus too?) include runes and masteries? If so, should he take offense over defense in runes and masteries now?
Nope. Defensive runes still help in lane, Especially on armor yellows, and MR blues.
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On March 20 2012 16:07 UniversalSnip wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 14:45 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote:On March 20 2012 14:41 UniversalSnip wrote:On March 20 2012 14:17 Craton wrote:On March 20 2012 13:52 Ryuu314 wrote:
if they nerf shen's ult range he'll be 100% unplayed. You mean like how TF, Panth, and Noct are 100% unplayed? Please. It's not really the same. Shen ult is really reactive, tf panth and noct ult you can go gank a lane with. If instead of shielding it did something that helped a gank, like ccing enemies next to the target, a range nerf wouldn't hurt that badly. Shen can taunt someone near to the teammate as soon as he ports . . . Unless you mean cc as soon as shen's ult which will never happen because it has no counterplay. There's not really any counterplay to noct ult either.
agreed
shen's ult is completely reactionary. it's worthless to you if it barely stretches from top lane to mid lane, because by the time you walk halfway down the river to your teammate (in addition to further travel because your teammate is probably retreating toward base as well) he'll be dead before you can ult to him. some red from RIOT, at the time that panth/TFs ults were nerfed, mentioned that shen's ult would not be getting a range ult because of this reason.
besides, it's stupid to say that something is OP because it's global. people don't complain about wish's range, nor requiem's range, and no one has ever said "well hey maybe nocturne could provide reduced vision in only a small AOE around him" because that wouldn't really fix noc. pantheon and TF had their ult ranges reduced specifically because they were gankers. it was too easy to bluepill to base, get full health + mana, buy a new item, then ult into an unprepared lane 10s after you backed. shen, not being able to control when his teammates will get ganked, does not have this luxury, and will not receive the same nerf, end of story
i wanted to bring up another point that i think is somewhat of a misconception that people have about RIOT design too
Unless you mean cc as soon as shen's ult which will never happen because it has no counterplay.
i think this is something that people THINK that RIOT does, but RIOT doesn't really do this. i think they tend to showcase the things that DO have counterplay as good design, but then beat around the bush against things that DON'T have counterplay.
so let's start with a timeline
first batch of champs: pretty well-designed. obviously some hitches here and there (jax and TF in their prime), but nothing that hasn't been fixed.
second batch of champs, pre-season 1: poppy's ult. there is no counterplay to poppy's ult. there is nothing you can do to make her vulnerable to damage. bad design (to be fair, zileas has admitted this is bad design). heimerdinger's grenades damaging turrets (which has been patched out, +1). shaco, at various points in his existence.
vlad: vlad's Q, a no-cost, low-CD ability that gives him health back. no counterplay. it was sometime later (maybe around the release of caitlyn?) that they basically admitted that vlad was a mistake and there would be no way a champ like him would make it into the game any more (as another note, i'm pretty sure they said the same thing about shaco around the same time)
nocturne: noc's ult, no counterplay. no way to get rid of the darkness. darkness pop's banshee's veils. prevents cohesive teamwork, especially in solo queue. to this day, one of the strongest abilities in the game.
(rumble: i consider rumble's ult to be total bullshit. can be cast from like 5 screens away and does infinite dps, but most people think rumble is balanced, so w/e)
vayne: %-based true damage. no counterplay. you can argue that minus AS modifiers are a counterplay, but attack speed is only the rate at which her counterplay-less skill is applied. the idea of the skill itself is bogus and cannot be defended against
yorick: in general, lol. j/k, yorick is about as close to the no-counterplay-line that you can toe while still being able to say "no way man you can totally still win sometimes if yorick is your lane opponent and also a retard"
nautilus: ultimate locks on and cannot be dodged no matter what. i can't think of any other ultimate skills that are like this, that have such a range (obviously, some ults cannot be dodged no matter what [fiona, trundle, urgot, etc], but none of them have such a range + utility combo, imo). the only counterplay to this is to just never be anywhere near naut, tbh.
idk, basically what i'm getting at is that i think RIOT is well-intentioned in their design mostly, and they like to think they make all good design choices, but they definitely let some anti-fun skills slip into their champ designs and then just kinda go "hey look at THIS though, THIS IS AWESOME" and try to destract you from the poor design. so to say that they wouldn't introduce a teleport skill that had CC to it because it has no counterplay is, in my opinion, not very perceptive. there's precedent for worse!
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On March 20 2012 16:39 wussleeQ wrote:
well any bonus ap you have is total ap lol. and yes it includes runes and masteries. and i'd say no on runing completely offensively because you only get the bonus on an activation
Ok, got the difference; feels a bit stupid to ask the first part in hindsight.
On March 20 2012 16:42 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 16:38 grs wrote:Jax
[...]
Grandmaster's Might (New Active): Jax gains 25/35/45 (+30% of his bonus attack damage) armor and 25/35/45 (+20% of his ability power) magic resist for 8 seconds. 100 mana, 80 second cooldown. Does "bonus attack damage" and "ability power" (is that total or bonus too?) include runes and masteries? If so, should he take offense over defense in runes and masteries now? Nope. Defensive runes still help in lane, Especially on armor yellows, and MR blues.
So pretty much the same as before. Thanks.
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I agree with the sentiment that Shen's ult is not the same as TF/Panth. I also don't think they should nerf the range because it would basically destroy the character a lot harder than it hurts TF/Panth. Noc's ult is kind of irrelevant in this imo as it works different from TF, Pantheons, and Shen's.
I do however think that with Shen's ult if he's viable as a solo top or a jungler he will always be a common pick due to the fact of how incredibly strong his split pushing is.
Karth/Soraka ults are "global" in the sense that they effect all enemies/allies but they do not allow for super abusive split pushing that causes the enemy team to either deal with a split pusher but then lose a 4v5. I think the strength of TF or Pantheon's split pushing was a very large reason why their ults got nerfs. Not just because it allowed them to be powerful gankers. Shen's ult wasn't as strong as theirs of course but as of right now it's definitely more powerful than theirs as it allows you to either get free towers or force incredibly favorable fights when someone comes to deal with Shen's split push.
Nerfing Shen's ult will make him practically unplayable but keeping it as is will continue to make him an incredibly strong pick unless the rest of his kit is garbage. I don't think Riot really knows what to do with him outside of a complete re-work to his ult.
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hmm thinking about running smite/promote for jungler, for junglers with really strong ganks. Even if you don't get a kill, promote and push lanes down, while the laner has to recall (or died). Seems like it would effective in soloq (since no laners are gunna grab promote).
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@guitar now I think of it, you're right. But shen ult cc-ing is still something that just seems awkward anyways since he can taunt after ult so it just seems kinda redundant. Agree with your post though.
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nautilus: ultimate locks on and cannot be dodged no matter what. i can't think of any other ultimate skills that are like this, that have such a range (obviously, some ults cannot be dodged no matter what [fiona, trundle, urgot, etc], but none of them have such a range + utility combo, imo). the only counterplay to this is to just never be anywhere near naut, tbh.
Can't you QSS the targetting reticule?
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Blue buff isn't that big of a nerf to junglers but to APs that need a lot of mana
janna nerf seems like it would do a lot
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Could anyone tell me about major streamers/players who play Veigar? I'm level 11 atm and I've been doing really badly after level 8. I've watched a couple scarra videos, but who else?
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EPT
