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Remember guys, this is the general discussion thread. Keep whine/QQ posts in the appropriate QQ memorial thread! Thanks! |
On April 15 2012 09:09 UniversalSnip wrote:
I love posts like
- Team X is awful at Y. They are so bad at Y.
- Team X has turrible group psychology. They need to Y if they want to be a top team.
- Wow Team X really needs Player Z to stop being a retard and change his style/ability to play if they want to be a top team.
And usually it's a top 4 team. We never see this kind of backseat criticizing of, say, v8, because nobody has any idea what v8 is up to because they're not in the finals of every tournament. On the other hand people feel free to say the most idiotic things about tsm or clg or m5 as if they actually know these people and their thought processes.
It's mainly people attempting to analyze a teams overall play in comparison to the best possible theoretical play, which is how we compare play competitively. Top teams often have a few glaring issues from time to time, and have to consistently work to improve upon themselves to remain top teams.
The same type of analyzing happens in SC even when watching a flash or jaedong game. Like heck look at players like hyuk or zergbong. Obviously they have glaring issues and it's why they aren't #1, but compared to any of us he'd destroy all of us 1v1 without trying. That doesn't mean we can't judge or analyze their play.
Edit: would 5:51 in doninion literally be the record? My friend and i played a quick game that lasted 5:56 because 1 enemy never connected and another disconnected, so we got all 5 points and just kept killing the 3 as 5 as try came from tower :/
I guess 5:50 is around the fastest possible time?
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On April 15 2012 12:15 BlackPaladin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2012 09:09 UniversalSnip wrote:
I love posts like
- Team X is awful at Y. They are so bad at Y.
- Team X has turrible group psychology. They need to Y if they want to be a top team.
- Wow Team X really needs Player Z to stop being a retard and change his style/ability to play if they want to be a top team.
And usually it's a top 4 team. We never see this kind of backseat criticizing of, say, v8, because nobody has any idea what v8 is up to because they're not in the finals of every tournament. On the other hand people feel free to say the most idiotic things about tsm or clg or m5 as if they actually know these people and their thought processes. It's mainly people attempting to analyze a teams overall play in comparison to the best possible theoretical play, which is how we compare play competitively. Top teams often have a few glaring issues from time to time, and have to consistently work to improve upon themselves to remain top teams. The same type of analyzing happens in SC even when watching a flash or jaedong game. Like heck look at players like hyuk or zergbong. Obviously they have glaring issues and it's why they aren't #1, but compared to any of us he'd destroy all of us 1v1 without trying. That doesn't mean we can't judge or analyze their play. Edit: would 5:51 in doninion literally be the record? My friend and i played a quick game that lasted 5:56 because 1 enemy never connected and another disconnected, so we got all 5 points and just kept killing the 3 as 5 as try came from tower :/ I guess 5:50 is around the fastest possible time?
Its not "people attempting to analyze" though. Its people talking complete shit about some of the best teams and best players in the world. There are people who have constructive and interesting debates, then there's the "LOL [insert top player here] IS SO FUCKING BAD". Which is just obnoxious.
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So I know that we've been discussing team mentality, and I just want to say:
TheOddOne needs to lighten up. Instead of talking about how his team are entirely retards, swearing and raging, typing in chat about how the game is lost and they are so bad, he should focus on positive and constructive advice. He's an excellent player, and with the time he spends raging, he could be typing in good advice for his team.
saintvicious needs to skype less.
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Anyone else feel like they play much better if they play more games in a row?
My usual LoLing is just a couple games at a time. I find that when I can play more in one day I am doing much better by the end of the day. Maybe just anecdotal/incidental, but it definitely feels that way.
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On April 15 2012 12:32 Treadmill wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2012 12:15 BlackPaladin wrote:On April 15 2012 09:09 UniversalSnip wrote:
I love posts like
- Team X is awful at Y. They are so bad at Y.
- Team X has turrible group psychology. They need to Y if they want to be a top team.
- Wow Team X really needs Player Z to stop being a retard and change his style/ability to play if they want to be a top team.
And usually it's a top 4 team. We never see this kind of backseat criticizing of, say, v8, because nobody has any idea what v8 is up to because they're not in the finals of every tournament. On the other hand people feel free to say the most idiotic things about tsm or clg or m5 as if they actually know these people and their thought processes. It's mainly people attempting to analyze a teams overall play in comparison to the best possible theoretical play, which is how we compare play competitively. Top teams often have a few glaring issues from time to time, and have to consistently work to improve upon themselves to remain top teams. The same type of analyzing happens in SC even when watching a flash or jaedong game. Like heck look at players like hyuk or zergbong. Obviously they have glaring issues and it's why they aren't #1, but compared to any of us he'd destroy all of us 1v1 without trying. That doesn't mean we can't judge or analyze their play. Edit: would 5:51 in doninion literally be the record? My friend and i played a quick game that lasted 5:56 because 1 enemy never connected and another disconnected, so we got all 5 points and just kept killing the 3 as 5 as try came from tower :/ I guess 5:50 is around the fastest possible time? Its not "people attempting to analyze" though. Its people talking complete shit about some of the best teams and best players in the world. There are people who have constructive and interesting debates, then there's the "LOL [insert top player here] IS SO FUCKING BAD". Which is just obnoxious.
Okay and as an example doublelift's team being one of the top teams in the game and his great mechanics does not change the fact that his game sense is horrible and that he goes full derp nearly every game in comparison to most other pro LoL players. When you see stupid shit done a lot of people say it. Anyway these arguments bore me, i've heard them all before so i'm just gonna drop it.
@perered
Yeah a lot of players will even tell you it takes a few games to get into your "groove" and then you'll be playing at your peak. After a while though if you get tired or perhaps lose during your peak you might begin to play worse due to fatige or emotions.
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On April 15 2012 12:32 Treadmill wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2012 12:15 BlackPaladin wrote:On April 15 2012 09:09 UniversalSnip wrote:
I love posts like
- Team X is awful at Y. They are so bad at Y.
- Team X has turrible group psychology. They need to Y if they want to be a top team.
- Wow Team X really needs Player Z to stop being a retard and change his style/ability to play if they want to be a top team.
And usually it's a top 4 team. We never see this kind of backseat criticizing of, say, v8, because nobody has any idea what v8 is up to because they're not in the finals of every tournament. On the other hand people feel free to say the most idiotic things about tsm or clg or m5 as if they actually know these people and their thought processes. It's mainly people attempting to analyze a teams overall play in comparison to the best possible theoretical play, which is how we compare play competitively. Top teams often have a few glaring issues from time to time, and have to consistently work to improve upon themselves to remain top teams. The same type of analyzing happens in SC even when watching a flash or jaedong game. Like heck look at players like hyuk or zergbong. Obviously they have glaring issues and it's why they aren't #1, but compared to any of us he'd destroy all of us 1v1 without trying. That doesn't mean we can't judge or analyze their play. Edit: would 5:51 in doninion literally be the record? My friend and i played a quick game that lasted 5:56 because 1 enemy never connected and another disconnected, so we got all 5 points and just kept killing the 3 as 5 as try came from tower :/ I guess 5:50 is around the fastest possible time? Its not "people attempting to analyze" though. Its people talking complete shit about some of the best teams and best players in the world. There are people who have constructive and interesting debates, then there's the "LOL [insert top player here] IS SO FUCKING BAD". Which is just obnoxious.
What I really hate about people that try to analyze top play is that they judge each player's performance individually. It's a team game, and what you do on the map affects other lane.
An example: OH WOW LOL __(top lane player)__ SUCKS SO MUCH, DIES TO GANK BECAUSE HE PUSHES WITH NO WARD
But in truth, he knew he could afford to push because dragon was up. He died, but he blew two flashes and an ignite without using anything himself, and allowed his team to get dragon uncontested. Since he is pushing on the enemy, they aren't able to abuse his death timer to take his tower. All in all, his play was good, and his team is now in the lead.
A lot of commentators say stuff like that too, and it get really annoying really fast.
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I played two games as support yorick with a graves partner on skype. We did pretty well. I don't really feel like he pushes lanes too hard.
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On April 15 2012 12:44 Praetorial wrote:
So I know that we've been discussing team mentality, and I just want to say:
TheOddOne needs to lighten up. Instead of talking about how his team are entirely retards, swearing and raging, typing in chat about how the game is lost and they are so bad, he should focus on positive and constructive advice. He's an excellent player, and with the time he spends raging, he could be typing in good advice for his team.
saintvicious needs to skype less.
He only does that stuff in solo queue, how does that relate to team mentality?
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17-0 last 2 ranked games as Noct+Shyv, halfway there to platnium! A 2.2k elo smurf(Tekshi) acknowledged my skill, made me feel good XD
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On April 15 2012 13:40 Xevious wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2012 12:44 Praetorial wrote:
So I know that we've been discussing team mentality, and I just want to say:
TheOddOne needs to lighten up. Instead of talking about how his team are entirely retards, swearing and raging, typing in chat about how the game is lost and they are so bad, he should focus on positive and constructive advice. He's an excellent player, and with the time he spends raging, he could be typing in good advice for his team.
saintvicious needs to skype less. He only does that stuff in solo queue, how does that relate to team mentality?
To be honest, thats how most of the streamers with high numbers gets viewers. Look at Dyrus, HSGG, and Oddone, they all get 10K+ viewers on any given day because they rage on stream and viewers eat it up for some reason
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That Morgana on SV's stream is damn good.
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I think if you make random comments about plays on streams you could at least give context. Is it sarcasm? Is the Morganna really good? Did she just make a funny play?
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On April 15 2012 13:30 Qualm wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2012 12:32 Treadmill wrote:On April 15 2012 12:15 BlackPaladin wrote:On April 15 2012 09:09 UniversalSnip wrote:
I love posts like
- Team X is awful at Y. They are so bad at Y.
- Team X has turrible group psychology. They need to Y if they want to be a top team.
- Wow Team X really needs Player Z to stop being a retard and change his style/ability to play if they want to be a top team.
And usually it's a top 4 team. We never see this kind of backseat criticizing of, say, v8, because nobody has any idea what v8 is up to because they're not in the finals of every tournament. On the other hand people feel free to say the most idiotic things about tsm or clg or m5 as if they actually know these people and their thought processes. It's mainly people attempting to analyze a teams overall play in comparison to the best possible theoretical play, which is how we compare play competitively. Top teams often have a few glaring issues from time to time, and have to consistently work to improve upon themselves to remain top teams. The same type of analyzing happens in SC even when watching a flash or jaedong game. Like heck look at players like hyuk or zergbong. Obviously they have glaring issues and it's why they aren't #1, but compared to any of us he'd destroy all of us 1v1 without trying. That doesn't mean we can't judge or analyze their play. Edit: would 5:51 in doninion literally be the record? My friend and i played a quick game that lasted 5:56 because 1 enemy never connected and another disconnected, so we got all 5 points and just kept killing the 3 as 5 as try came from tower :/ I guess 5:50 is around the fastest possible time? Its not "people attempting to analyze" though. Its people talking complete shit about some of the best teams and best players in the world. There are people who have constructive and interesting debates, then there's the "LOL [insert top player here] IS SO FUCKING BAD". Which is just obnoxious. What I really hate about people that try to analyze top play is that they judge each player's performance individually. It's a team game, and what you do on the map affects other lane. An example: OH WOW LOL __(top lane player)__ SUCKS SO MUCH, DIES TO GANK BECAUSE HE PUSHES WITH NO WARD But in truth, he knew he could afford to push because dragon was up. He died, but he blew two flashes and an ignite without using anything himself, and allowed his team to get dragon uncontested. Since he is pushing on the enemy, they aren't able to abuse his death timer to take his tower. All in all, his play was good, and his team is now in the lead. A lot of commentators say stuff like that too, and it get really annoying really fast.
you make a partially good point but you're kind of overstating it
dying is never the optimal play. better play would be baiting the enemy into ganking you and blowing summoners, but escaping anyway. accomplishes the same goal but without letting the enemy feel justified about their actions
in fact i see this a lot even in competitive play. you'll hear someone say "wow the enemy blew 4 summoners on me we'll win the next teamfight" and that's a justification for making a mistake. especially early-game, you SHOULD be blowing summoners to ensure kills, so saying that the enemy used them to kill you is just a narcissistic way to say "i fucked up"
my team was playing against a far inferior team in a tournament the other day, we were going for a no-death victory. one of our players went for a towerdive for no reason and like 3 of them converged on him for the kill. instead of being mad at himself for making a mistake, he was nonchalant about it like "oh well warwick ulted me under tower... that's why i died". well. yeah. had you just played smarter it wouldn't have been an issue
so i feel like it's okay to criticize good players for making obvious mistakes, because even if they have a justification, it was still probably a mistake, na'mean?
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On April 15 2012 14:12 ManyCookies wrote:
That Morgana on SV's stream is damn good.
The morgana got a lot of kills and SV and Chauster recognized him as an old player. SV was jungling amumu and the two of them made the opponent's cassiopeia go 0-10. I was fucking scared. Like I'd have died just as much. Amumu would come in, morgana would come in, one of them would land a snare/stun, then the other one would follow up. Chain ccd to death by two champions. They beat an udyr and a cassiopeia in a sustained fight early game! After amumu died morgana solod their udyr and cassiopeia in a fight! HOW? The cass and udyr were both at 30% health and both being retarded, not wanting to be the one to die, when if both of them had gone in they probably would have killed morgana before morgana could kill them.
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On April 15 2012 15:48 gtrsrs wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2012 13:30 Qualm wrote:On April 15 2012 12:32 Treadmill wrote:On April 15 2012 12:15 BlackPaladin wrote:On April 15 2012 09:09 UniversalSnip wrote:
I love posts like
- Team X is awful at Y. They are so bad at Y.
- Team X has turrible group psychology. They need to Y if they want to be a top team.
- Wow Team X really needs Player Z to stop being a retard and change his style/ability to play if they want to be a top team.
And usually it's a top 4 team. We never see this kind of backseat criticizing of, say, v8, because nobody has any idea what v8 is up to because they're not in the finals of every tournament. On the other hand people feel free to say the most idiotic things about tsm or clg or m5 as if they actually know these people and their thought processes. It's mainly people attempting to analyze a teams overall play in comparison to the best possible theoretical play, which is how we compare play competitively. Top teams often have a few glaring issues from time to time, and have to consistently work to improve upon themselves to remain top teams. The same type of analyzing happens in SC even when watching a flash or jaedong game. Like heck look at players like hyuk or zergbong. Obviously they have glaring issues and it's why they aren't #1, but compared to any of us he'd destroy all of us 1v1 without trying. That doesn't mean we can't judge or analyze their play. Edit: would 5:51 in doninion literally be the record? My friend and i played a quick game that lasted 5:56 because 1 enemy never connected and another disconnected, so we got all 5 points and just kept killing the 3 as 5 as try came from tower :/ I guess 5:50 is around the fastest possible time? Its not "people attempting to analyze" though. Its people talking complete shit about some of the best teams and best players in the world. There are people who have constructive and interesting debates, then there's the "LOL [insert top player here] IS SO FUCKING BAD". Which is just obnoxious. What I really hate about people that try to analyze top play is that they judge each player's performance individually. It's a team game, and what you do on the map affects other lane. An example: OH WOW LOL __(top lane player)__ SUCKS SO MUCH, DIES TO GANK BECAUSE HE PUSHES WITH NO WARD But in truth, he knew he could afford to push because dragon was up. He died, but he blew two flashes and an ignite without using anything himself, and allowed his team to get dragon uncontested. Since he is pushing on the enemy, they aren't able to abuse his death timer to take his tower. All in all, his play was good, and his team is now in the lead. A lot of commentators say stuff like that too, and it get really annoying really fast. you make a partially good point but you're kind of overstating it dying is never the optimal play. better play would be baiting the enemy into ganking you and blowing summoners, but escaping anyway. accomplishes the same goal but without letting the enemy feel justified about their actions in fact i see this a lot even in competitive play. you'll hear someone say "wow the enemy blew 4 summoners on me we'll win the next teamfight" and that's a justification for making a mistake. especially early-game, you SHOULD be blowing summoners to ensure kills, so saying that the enemy used them to kill you is just a narcissistic way to say "i fucked up" my team was playing against a far inferior team in a tournament the other day, we were going for a no-death victory. one of our players went for a towerdive for no reason and like 3 of them converged on him for the kill. instead of being mad at himself for making a mistake, he was nonchalant about it like "oh well warwick ulted me under tower... that's why i died". well. yeah. had you just played smarter it wouldn't have been an issue so i feel like it's okay to criticize good players for making obvious mistakes, because even if they have a justification, it was still probably a mistake, na'mean?
there are plenty of times where dying is the optimal play. flash ulting to baron steal as warwick is a very good play and you will most of the time doing that. staying behind to finish an inhib. running straight into 5 of them as say mundo and getting blown up but because they had to turn on you they get flash ken and vlad ulted and get aced. suicide pushing top could be a good play a lot of the time and saying you should have baited it and got away is unreasonable. in order to make them come top you have to be with the creeps so they can see you and so you are actually applying pressure and that is too deep to escape from a lot of the time.
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On April 15 2012 16:23 jadoth wrote:
there are plenty of times where dying is the optimal play. flash ulting to baron steal as warwick is a very good play and you will most of the time doing that. staying behind to finish an inhib. running straight into 5 of them as say mundo and getting blown up but because they had to turn on you they get flash ken and vlad ulted and get aced. suicide pushing top could be a good play a lot of the time and saying you should have baited it and got away is unreasonable. in order to make them come top you have to be with the creeps so they can see you and so you are actually applying pressure and that is too deep to escape from a lot of the time.
Though it is completely likely that dying will be the result, it`s still not exactly optimal. Flash ulting to baron, stealing, and getting away would be optimal, even if it is rarely possible.
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It just feels so good when their team blows all spells on you and are raped by your mates the second after. I speically had success doing this with lee sin when you're fed, they're so scared of you jumping into all of them they put all spells on CD and are punished for it. In fact those suicidal moves are amongt my favorite plays.
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On April 15 2012 16:28 Bezelheim wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2012 16:23 jadoth wrote:
there are plenty of times where dying is the optimal play. flash ulting to baron steal as warwick is a very good play and you will most of the time doing that. staying behind to finish an inhib. running straight into 5 of them as say mundo and getting blown up but because they had to turn on you they get flash ken and vlad ulted and get aced. suicide pushing top could be a good play a lot of the time and saying you should have baited it and got away is unreasonable. in order to make them come top you have to be with the creeps so they can see you and so you are actually applying pressure and that is too deep to escape from a lot of the time.
Though it is completely likely that dying will be the result, it`s still not exactly optimal. Flash ulting to baron, stealing, and getting away would be optimal, even if it is rarely possible.
if flash ulting, stealing and then getting away is impossible then how is it the optimal play. that makes no sense what so ever. if stealing and dieing is the best you can do then it is the optimal play. if impossible plays are the optimal play then the optimal play in every game is to 1v5 them in their spawn at lvl 1.
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On April 15 2012 16:38 jadoth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2012 16:28 Bezelheim wrote:On April 15 2012 16:23 jadoth wrote:
there are plenty of times where dying is the optimal play. flash ulting to baron steal as warwick is a very good play and you will most of the time doing that. staying behind to finish an inhib. running straight into 5 of them as say mundo and getting blown up but because they had to turn on you they get flash ken and vlad ulted and get aced. suicide pushing top could be a good play a lot of the time and saying you should have baited it and got away is unreasonable. in order to make them come top you have to be with the creeps so they can see you and so you are actually applying pressure and that is too deep to escape from a lot of the time.
Though it is completely likely that dying will be the result, it`s still not exactly optimal. Flash ulting to baron, stealing, and getting away would be optimal, even if it is rarely possible. if flash ulting, stealing and then getting away is impossible then how is it the optimal play. that makes no sense what so ever. if stealing and dieing is the best you can do then it is the optimal play. if impossible plays are the optimal play then the optimal play in every game is to 1v5 them in their spawn at lvl 1.
Pretty much. Bezelheim your argument makes no sense.
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On April 15 2012 16:41 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2012 16:38 jadoth wrote:On April 15 2012 16:28 Bezelheim wrote:On April 15 2012 16:23 jadoth wrote:
there are plenty of times where dying is the optimal play. flash ulting to baron steal as warwick is a very good play and you will most of the time doing that. staying behind to finish an inhib. running straight into 5 of them as say mundo and getting blown up but because they had to turn on you they get flash ken and vlad ulted and get aced. suicide pushing top could be a good play a lot of the time and saying you should have baited it and got away is unreasonable. in order to make them come top you have to be with the creeps so they can see you and so you are actually applying pressure and that is too deep to escape from a lot of the time.
Though it is completely likely that dying will be the result, it`s still not exactly optimal. Flash ulting to baron, stealing, and getting away would be optimal, even if it is rarely possible. if flash ulting, stealing and then getting away is impossible then how is it the optimal play. that makes no sense what so ever. if stealing and dieing is the best you can do then it is the optimal play. if impossible plays are the optimal play then the optimal play in every game is to 1v5 them in their spawn at lvl 1. Pretty much. Bezelheim your argument makes no sense.
..His argument makes perfect sense he's just going a bit overboard in it's defense. I think what people are trying to say is that a teammate dieing may not be the worst for the team. However obviously that person should try his/her best to actually not die anyway.
Hard to do near suicidal plays such as a baron steal or turning to let the enemy blow everything on you is not ideal play but it can be effective play if done at the right time. No one tends to say "I'ma suicide into that pit and steal baron at the cost of my life" but they do realize it's possibility and understand that the possibility of success even at the cost of death outweighs the cons.
Yeah?
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EPT
