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Remember guys, this is the general discussion thread. Keep whine/QQ posts in the appropriate QQ memorial thread! Thanks! | ||
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turdburgler
England6749 Posts
On April 11 2012 09:52 Dandel Ion wrote: Not that I'd recommend doing that, but theoretically you can get 30 without ever playing a normal game. which would give you a normal elo of 0, i dont see the problem | ||
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gtrsrs
United States9109 Posts
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On April 11 2012 10:31 gtrsrs wrote: udyr is no more tanky than skarner, they are both item-dependent on their tankiness. that's not true. Having a 220 hp shield on a 6 second cooldown gives you a ton more tankiness than you would imagine. Skarner's shield is 250 hp on a 14 second cooldown. Even with Skarner's passive, Udyr's shield will have much higher uptime. Not to mention that Skarner doesn't have the mana to spam his shield, whereas Udyr can easily spam his. Udyr's turtle stance is what gives him most of his early-mid game tankiness. | ||
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arb
Noobville17921 Posts
how do you die on any route unless you start no items and use no pots | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On April 11 2012 10:41 Ryuu314 wrote: that's not true. Having a 220 hp shield on a 6 second cooldown gives you a ton more tankiness than you would imagine. Skarner's shield is 250 hp on a 14 second cooldown. Even with Skarner's passive, Udyr's shield will have much higher uptime. Not to mention that Skarner doesn't have the mana to spam his shield, whereas Udyr can easily spam his. Udyr's turtle stance is what gives him most of his early-mid game tankiness. I just find that the tradeoff (a bit less tankiness for constant soft CC and and his ult) is more than worth it. Once items get stacked, too, it doesn't really matter anyway, since the items more than close that distance. | ||
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Inschato
Canada1349 Posts
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BlackPaladin
United States9316 Posts
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chalice
United States1945 Posts
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On April 11 2012 11:04 Inschato wrote: Udyr has constant hard CC and a speed boost that can't be burst damage'd off of him. Those are probably the two biggest reasons he's stronger than Skarner and was frequently banned at IPL. Constant != 1 every 6 seconds. With Skarner, you can literally keep them slowed 100% of the time with no problem whatsoever, unless you get CC'd yourself. Plus, you don't trade off your shield by doing so. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On April 11 2012 10:55 Requizen wrote: I just find that the tradeoff (a bit less tankiness for constant soft CC and and his ult) is more than worth it. Once items get stacked, too, it doesn't really matter anyway, since the items more than close that distance. Actually, because of the way persistent heals/shields interact with resistance itemization, both heroes itemizing for defense should magnify the difference in survivability. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On April 11 2012 11:34 Requizen wrote: Constant != 1 every 6 seconds. With Skarner, you can literally keep them slowed 100% of the time with no problem whatsoever, unless you get CC'd yourself. Plus, you don't trade off your shield by doing so. It becomes a perma speed boost once you get sufficient cdr and enough levels of bear. With max lvl bear you need 33% cdr, which is easily achievable with the defensive tree masteries, randuins, and frozen heart, all of which are great items/mastery options on Udyr. With bear stance speed boost being up all the time keeping up with your target is ezpz, especially if you have randuins or red buff. While you can only stun once every 6 seconds, I personally feel that the stun is better disruption than the slow. | ||
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Inschato
Canada1349 Posts
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Amui
Canada10567 Posts
While the attack speed required for shield CD's to be ~equal range from 1.3-1.5ish for skarner depending on CDR, which for the most part is achievable with shield up + either trinity or wits, the problem is that skarner will not be stuck to a target for that much pretty much ever. Add in the fact that skarner's shield costs quite a bit more, just on math alone udyr is better. As for whether the perma slow or stun is better depends completely on team comp and how you are playing them. I think Skarner wins the damage end, but udyr definitely is more tanky. Skarner does have the ult though. On April 11 2012 12:02 Inschato wrote: You can only CC a particular person every 6 seconds, but you can stun every single member of their team and their bear during those 6 seconds. It's a ton of disruption compared to a slow that won't matter if the enemy is committed anyway or has gap closers that don't care about slows. Skarner is strongest when the enemy tries to run away from him, Udyr is always strong. slowing is also good for keeping people off a kiting AD/AP. Slows aren't always offensive. It's permanent slow vs occasional stun, both have their uses. EDIT: Also, regarding Udyr vs Skarner. Udyr ganks pre 6 >>>>>>>> Skarner ganks pre 6 Even if it's not a gank and just lane pressure, progamers can snowball the tiniest of early game advantages into lane wins. Skarner also is not nearly as tanky as Udyr unfortunately, and his strength is hurt by the presence of QSS. Skarner is roughly equal to udyr in ganking top lane pre 6 IMO. I would agree though that pre6, udyr is far stronger at ganking mid, and then bottom lane is just a really hard lane to gank. | ||
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tobi9999
United States1966 Posts
On April 11 2012 11:30 Slusher wrote: Holy shit Scarra was not joking when he said it is literally impossible to lose lane with Soraka, I can derp 2-3 times a game and still be beyond overpowered by the time teamfights roll around. Yep, at least not with the current metagame that's going on. If Mid soraka becomes a thing, then AD mid will come back to rape it hard. MF does pretty well from experience at zoning soraka. EDIT: Also, regarding Udyr vs Skarner. Udyr ganks pre 6 >>>>>>>> Skarner ganks pre 6 Even if it's not a gank and just lane pressure, progamers can snowball the tiniest of early game advantages into lane wins. Skarner also is not nearly as tanky as Udyr unfortunately, and his strength is hurt by the presence of QSS. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On April 11 2012 12:03 tobi9999 wrote: Yep, at least not with the current metagame that's going on. If Mid soraka becomes a thing, then AD mid will come back to rape it hard. MF does pretty well from experience at zoning soraka. I wouldn't count on that. Remember when Kassadin was big? Despite Kass getting fucked in pretty much any AD mid matchup, seeing AD mid played against him was still fairly rare. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
On April 11 2012 12:03 tobi9999 wrote: Yep, at least not with the current metagame that's going on. If Mid soraka becomes a thing, then AD mid will come back to rape it hard. MF does pretty well from experience at zoning soraka. EDIT: Also, regarding Udyr vs Skarner. Udyr ganks pre 6 >>>>>>>> Skarner ganks pre 6 Even if it's not a gank and just lane pressure, progamers can snowball the tiniest of early game advantages into lane wins. Skarner also is not nearly as tanky as Udyr unfortunately, and his strength is hurt by the presence of QSS. I disagree to an extent, unless you pump more than one point into bear stance you will most likely have to blow flash, with skarner you can sometimes get the 2nd q w/o ghost sometimes not. udyr I guess is a little better at tower diving pre 6 but in reality nobody is "good" at tower dives pre 6 except mabye lee and ali. tl;dr Skarner W > Udyr E with 1 pt. also you don't have to put any points in E so you can get W pumped up faster. | ||
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petered
United States1817 Posts
Sorry, that belonged in the Loci thread. Not everyone can claim to be the most average like me. | ||
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gtrsrs
United States9109 Posts
but fights don't last an infinite amount of time. you're gonna get like 2 shields on skarner and 3 on udyr before the fight is over. they're equally tanky | ||
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
On April 11 2012 08:52 HazMat wrote: The beauty of twitch is that he works in every position and lane. You're not SUPPOSED to team fight with a twitch on your team. You let him gank people everywhere and they'll eventually just QQ at each other and surrender at 20 minutes. It's just psychological warfare. And yeah I went something ridiculous like 9 kills in 15 minutes as my first time Jungle Riven. It's only getting better. I'd say you're not supposed to teamfight with Twitch early game, but late game he like the best AD carry in the game. Big damages, OP range, and he has splash auto attacks... Twitch can melt an entire enemy team faster than any other AD carry in the game. | ||
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