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Remember guys, this is the general discussion thread. Keep whine/QQ posts in the appropriate QQ memorial thread! Thanks! |
Counter jungle and counter gank. If your team is so easily pushing the enemy then they're probably a bit stronger if only because of levels (and probably harass that forced their opponents to accept the pushing). Udyr is gonna wreck amumu in a brawl during that stage of the game.
Like, if your lanes are pushing that means they won't be missing any CS if they have to go respond to your counter jungling. You have to tell them this, though, as soloqers are unreliable. Specifically say "If they push you, I will gank, if you push them I will counterjungle. I will need you to respond to it because you won't lose CS but your lane opponent will." This is especially effective against Amumu. You should seriously be dumping on amumu in jungle if your lanes are all pushing since that's Amumu's biggest weakness.
Carrying from the jungle is real hard but sometimes you have to herd the cats.
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United States47024 Posts
On April 11 2012 14:55 TwoToneTerran wrote:
I mean, he gets 7 attacks before he has to sit in exhaust range.
And in those 7 attacks, their support is dead simply from splash damage, and their AD carry is on half without anyone else even hitting them.
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Right, but I don't like an AD Carry who's ability to damage is only practical with their very short duration ult up.
Twitch's damage is also more of an aoe steroid that has propensity to miss and he's less powerful against single tanks. Twitch is really weird.
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On April 11 2012 14:08 rob.au wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 14:05 Eppa! wrote:On April 11 2012 13:38 arb wrote:On April 11 2012 13:25 Eppa! wrote:
Twitch is pretty damn good late game with a good comp, he has excellent steroid skills. His early game sucks balls either you play cheesy as hell and become useless lategame or you play standard bot or top and your gimped early and suck late game because his lane presence is shit; if he got better base stats he would be a good pick situationally.
Also in a team fight there will be a lot of CC so you probably hit at least 2 people.
Edit: 06:00 spelling. back in the day when his ult would basically max attack speed by itself, after popping out of q good times.. But back then champs where a lot stronger. Compare Ashe then to now is like night and day. Yep barely anyone realizes that champs are quite a lot weaker nowadays, made the game way less fun for me.
Well tbh the champs are mostly weaker but the offensive items are just as strong or stronger, and the defensive items have gotten soooooo much weaker. And anyway, when a champ is way stronger than they should be, doesn't that make everyone else in the game relatively weaker? Like, you probably remember when a team having twitch was literally almost unbeatable past 25 minutes, you were just delaying the inevitable. Doesn't him popping out of stealth and having 2.5 attack speed and aoe infinity edge autoattacks and pentakilling one team, doesn't that render the abilities of 9 other champs pretty much irrelevant? Every game with a twitch compared to back then, 9 champions have gotten buffed.
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United States47024 Posts
On April 11 2012 16:19 UniversalSnip wrote:
Well tbh the champs are mostly weaker but the offensive items are just as strong or stronger, and the defensive items have gotten soooooo much weaker. And anyway, when a champ is way stronger than they should be, doesn't that make everyone else in the game relatively weaker? Like, you probably remember when a team having twitch was literally almost unbeatable past 25 minutes, you were just delaying the inevitable. Doesn't him popping out of stealth and having 2.5 attack speed and aoe infinity edge autoattacks and pentakilling one team, doesn't that render the abilities of 9 other champs pretty much irrelevant? Every game with a twitch compared to back then, 9 champions have gotten buffed.
This is true in a sense when it's a single champion. However, I would say there's a trend of champions being weaker than they were a year and a half ago. The number of champions that have been net nerfed in the past year and a half is much more than the ones that received a net buff.
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On April 11 2012 16:34 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 16:19 UniversalSnip wrote:
Well tbh the champs are mostly weaker but the offensive items are just as strong or stronger, and the defensive items have gotten soooooo much weaker. And anyway, when a champ is way stronger than they should be, doesn't that make everyone else in the game relatively weaker? Like, you probably remember when a team having twitch was literally almost unbeatable past 25 minutes, you were just delaying the inevitable. Doesn't him popping out of stealth and having 2.5 attack speed and aoe infinity edge autoattacks and pentakilling one team, doesn't that render the abilities of 9 other champs pretty much irrelevant? Every game with a twitch compared to back then, 9 champions have gotten buffed. This is true in a sense when it's a single champion. However, I would say there's a trend of champions being weaker than they were a year and a half ago. The number of champions that have been net nerfed in the past year and a half is much more than the ones that received a net buff.
Yeah, but the point is, it really doesn't matter that much. People kill each other MORE than they used to and it happens just as fast and you don't have one champion guaranteed to take over the game, so what are we complaining about? Ashe having less slows or something? I'm ok with that.
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United States47024 Posts
On April 11 2012 16:47 UniversalSnip wrote:
Yeah, but the point is, it really doesn't matter that much. People kill each other MORE than they used to and it happens just as fast and you don't have one champion guaranteed to take over the game, so what are we complaining about? Ashe having less slows or something? I'm ok with that.
I mean, if on average champions are less powerful, and items are more powerful, it means that items have a bigger impact on the outcome of teamfights, and champion baseline skills and ability usage has less of an impact. People might be dying more, but I don't like that kind of shift in gameplay.
Champions having powerful baseline kits means that fights are more likely to be decided by good ability usage than by simple gold/item advantage. Like when Janna's ult slowed, AoE ults lasted 2.5+ second, etc.
This is particularly true of a lot of champions where Riot deliberately decided to try and shift baseline ability strength into scaling. See: Annie, Garen, Pantheon, etc.
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On April 11 2012 16:51 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 16:47 UniversalSnip wrote:
Yeah, but the point is, it really doesn't matter that much. People kill each other MORE than they used to and it happens just as fast and you don't have one champion guaranteed to take over the game, so what are we complaining about? Ashe having less slows or something? I'm ok with that. I mean, if on average champions are less powerful, and items are more powerful, it means that items have a bigger impact on the outcome of teamfights, and champion baseline skills and ability usage has less of an impact. People might be dying more, but I don't like that kind of shift in gameplay. Champions having powerful baseline kits means that fights are more likely to be decided by good ability usage than by simple gold/item advantage. Like when Janna's ult slowed, AoE ults lasted 2.5+ second, etc. This is particularly true of a lot of champions where Riot deliberately decided to try and shift baseline ability strength into scaling. See: Annie, Garen, Pantheon, etc.
I see where you're coming from, but all that is cool with me. You get better items by playing better, so it's not like you're necessarily losing net skill, if that's your objective. The key is just to make sure people have the opportunity to outplay their opponents up to the point where items settle all the fights, and to have the game finish quickly after that so that people don't get stuck in this situation where the game is over and they can't outplay, but it just won't end.
Also, I'm surprised at last bit because I consider the oldschool design where champions need farm but don't really scale off items particularly noxious because it's hard to avoid giving them an oppressive early game (old garen for example).
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United States47024 Posts
On April 11 2012 17:20 UniversalSnip wrote:
I see where you're coming from, but all that is cool with me. You get better items by playing better, so it's not like you're necessarily losing net skill, if that's your objective. The key is just to make sure people have the opportunity to outplay their opponents up to the point where items settle all the fights, and to have the game finish quickly after that so that people don't get stuck in this situation where the game is over and they can't outplay, but it just won't end.
The game is most fun and most interesting to watch in the phase of the game where any given side has the chance to win a fight, because fights are closer and more dynamic during that stage. Having stronger champions and weaker items lengthens that phase, because it increases the size the gold gap needs to get to before the team that's behind has no chance anymore.
On April 11 2012 17:20 UniversalSnip wrote:
Also, I'm surprised at last bit because I consider the oldschool design where champions need farm but don't really scale off items particularly noxious because it's hard to avoid giving them an oppressive early game (old garen for example).
I don't think those "oppressive" early games were necessarily a problem (nobody ever complained about old Annie, and Pantheon definitely was in a place that was good for top-level play at many points). It's just that people's gut response to that sort of thing is to whine about it, and I think Riot responded to the whining in many cases too quickly.
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Heh,funnny.I got penta killed by twitch while there was a discussion going on here.
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On April 11 2012 17:27 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 17:20 UniversalSnip wrote:
Also, I'm surprised at last bit because I consider the oldschool design where champions need farm but don't really scale off items particularly noxious because it's hard to avoid giving them an oppressive early game (old garen for example). I don't think those "oppressive" early games were necessarily a problem (nobody ever complained about old Annie, and Pantheon definitely was in a place that was good for top-level play at many points). It's just that people's gut response to that sort of thing is to whine about it, and I think Riot responded to the whining in many cases too quickly.
yeah you're right about annie. It's possible panth was in a good spot at some point before I started playing so I guess I'm not gonna argue about that... the best balanced iteration I was around for was when spear was broken and hss was garbage and that was very oppressive in lane. There are plenty of examples of what I mean though, like old morde and old renek. As a class they just really didn't tend to turn out well.
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On April 11 2012 14:47 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 14:40 iCanada wrote:On April 11 2012 13:16 WaveofShadow wrote:On April 11 2012 12:52 iCanada wrote:On April 11 2012 08:52 HazMat wrote:
The beauty of twitch is that he works in every position and lane. You're not SUPPOSED to team fight with a twitch on your team. You let him gank people everywhere and they'll eventually just QQ at each other and surrender at 20 minutes. It's just psychological warfare.
And yeah I went something ridiculous like 9 kills in 15 minutes as my first time Jungle Riven. It's only getting better. I'd say you're not supposed to teamfight with Twitch early game, but late game he like the best AD carry in the game. Big damages, OP range, and he has splash auto attacks... Twitch can melt an entire enemy team faster than any other AD carry in the game. So many things wrong with this... First of all, his 'OP range' and splash autoattacks can be dodged when his ultimate is up. He has one of the worst base hps in the game and therefore any position you are in where you are not completely untouchable means you will disappear as soon as the nearest champion so much as LOOKS at you. If I'm not mistaken he also may be one of the only champions in the game with a turn speed, a relic of DotA at this point. As far as AD carries melting teams quickly, I'd say Vayne/Kog/Trist (mebbe Corki) all have something to say about that. And 3 of those 4 actually have a way to reposition/protect themselves in a teamfight. Some of them multiple ways. There is a time and a place for Twitch but I would argue that lategame is not one of them in most cases. So you're telling me that a 6 item kogmaw can kill a team faster than a 6 item Twitch? Mmmkay... I dont think he's seen 6 item Twitch.
Bitches don't know about my tiamat stacking twitch.
On a serious note, I think DL mentioned in his AMA that 6item twitch is the strongest ad carry.
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Meanwhile in normal draft queue land, my group leader set his hair on fire during the draft! :D
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I just hit 30 a few days ago and I was wondering when it's a good time to start playing ranked games. I currently play Ahri a lot and I'm pretty good with her, but I'll probably need to be good with a couple of champs and at different positions right?
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On April 11 2012 18:33 Logros wrote:
I just hit 30 a few days ago and I was wondering when it's a good time to start playing ranked games. I currently play Ahri a lot and I'm pretty good with her, but I'll probably need to be good with a couple of champs and at different positions right?
Yup, try to know atleast 2-3 champs of each role, preferably those that are not always banned. Having runes is always a plus.
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On April 11 2012 18:40 JackDino wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 18:33 Logros wrote:
I just hit 30 a few days ago and I was wondering when it's a good time to start playing ranked games. I currently play Ahri a lot and I'm pretty good with her, but I'll probably need to be good with a couple of champs and at different positions right? Yup, try to know atleast 2-3 champs of each role, preferably those that are not always banned. Having runes is always a plus.
Yeah I guess I'll brush up on my supports and play a few top champs as well before I start.
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just played a game of ad kayle... pretty hard to lane with but does some really good damage late game is all i can really say lol
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On April 11 2012 10:31 gtrsrs wrote:
udyr is no more tanky than skarner, they are both item-dependent on their tankiness.
This isn't really true though, the nature of skarner is that he relies on his shield for both his mobility and tankiness and when not attacking the cooldown is really long. That means not only are you reluctant to use shield against poke when you want to initiate soon, it's also a far longer cooldown in situations you don't get to attack people constantly. Udyr can get away with building tankier as well as not relying on meleeing people as much. You get a lot more than 3 shields effectively in a fight, you'll soak up like 3 shields before the fight even starts a lot of the time. And fights that udyr wins tend to last a long time, say 10-20 seconds.
A skarner getting hit a lot because he's in the front loses his speed and can't hit anyone to reduce cds on shield or charge his q slow on anyone. Yes he does more damage and has constant slow and has his ulti, which can single handedly win fights before an udyr would do anything, but he's not tankier, otherwise you'd see people playing him a hell of a lot more.
Skarners base cd on shield is 14 seconds, more than twice as long but a bit stronger. (not really if you activate level 5 pheonix before casting)
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On April 11 2012 17:50 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 14:47 sob3k wrote:On April 11 2012 14:40 iCanada wrote:On April 11 2012 13:16 WaveofShadow wrote:On April 11 2012 12:52 iCanada wrote:On April 11 2012 08:52 HazMat wrote:
The beauty of twitch is that he works in every position and lane. You're not SUPPOSED to team fight with a twitch on your team. You let him gank people everywhere and they'll eventually just QQ at each other and surrender at 20 minutes. It's just psychological warfare.
And yeah I went something ridiculous like 9 kills in 15 minutes as my first time Jungle Riven. It's only getting better. I'd say you're not supposed to teamfight with Twitch early game, but late game he like the best AD carry in the game. Big damages, OP range, and he has splash auto attacks... Twitch can melt an entire enemy team faster than any other AD carry in the game. So many things wrong with this... First of all, his 'OP range' and splash autoattacks can be dodged when his ultimate is up. He has one of the worst base hps in the game and therefore any position you are in where you are not completely untouchable means you will disappear as soon as the nearest champion so much as LOOKS at you. If I'm not mistaken he also may be one of the only champions in the game with a turn speed, a relic of DotA at this point. As far as AD carries melting teams quickly, I'd say Vayne/Kog/Trist (mebbe Corki) all have something to say about that. And 3 of those 4 actually have a way to reposition/protect themselves in a teamfight. Some of them multiple ways. There is a time and a place for Twitch but I would argue that lategame is not one of them in most cases. So you're telling me that a 6 item kogmaw can kill a team faster than a 6 item Twitch? Mmmkay... I dont think he's seen 6 item Twitch. Bitches don't know about my tiamat stacking twitch. On a serious note, I think DL mentioned in his AMA that 6item twitch is the strongest ad carry.
If people have ever played all the AD carries with 6 items, like anyone with a brain, they would say Twitch #1 endgame
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On April 11 2012 18:33 Logros wrote:
I just hit 30 a few days ago and I was wondering when it's a good time to start playing ranked games. I currently play Ahri a lot and I'm pretty good with her, but I'll probably need to be good with a couple of champs and at different positions right?
As long as you have a few full rune pages I'd say just jump in and go for it. Ranked is definitely harder than normals (I think partially because the matchmaking system spends a little more time looking for balanced teams statistically) and I've always felt that the best way to improve is to constantly challenge yourself.
I'm not one to really obsess over ELO, but at the same time I feel that no matter how prepared you are, you will eventually end up at the ELO you belong.
In ranked there's a greater burden on you to lead/carry your team because there's an even number of "bad" players so it's up to you to compensate for those less skilled players. This leads to the ELO Hell mentality where it just feels like in every game the odds are stacked against you. In reality, at lower ELOs it only takes one really good player on either side to make the best plays and lead the team to victory, and you have to be the one to make up for any deficits on your team.
My friend's regular account is 1900 ELO, and when he started rank with a new account he got to 1600 in a week with only full AP and support runes.
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EPT
