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Remember guys, this is the general discussion thread. Keep whine/QQ posts in the appropriate QQ memorial thread! Thanks! |
The proper comparison isn't if a champ does better with farm or not. Obviously everyone in the game scales with farm. The question is: does this champ contribute as much to the team on low farm as another champ on equally low farm. Trynd is absolutely useless on low farm; you cannot devote a full team member to do nothing but reduce AD. Janna is great on low farm because she is used for far more than damage.
Whether or not Janna with 200 cs and deathcap is better than Janna with 10 cs and gp5/support items does not matter. Of course she is. The better question for your team is: Is Janna with 200 cs better than Cassio with 200 cs? If so consider her as your AP carry. Then ask separately, is Janna with 10 cs better than Tryndamere with 10 cs? Well, we just established Janna is better in the bitch support slot for your team than Trynd.
I agree our viewpoints of support is too narrowed, because the meta currently defines support as 0-cs babysitter. I want this to change but I'm not sure the current state of the game allow it, but hopefully a team proves me wrong.
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yeah two-down you are just misreading what i'm saying i think
also you need to realize there are different correlations between things here than a straight up inverse relationship
good without farm =/= bad with farm
good without farm =/= scales poorly
not getting farm =/= support hero
galio can be used as a support because his shield gives flat resists, and his speedbuff gives flat speed, and his ult peels for a flat duration, regardless of how much farm you put into him. however, most people choose to solo lane him because his damage and survivability go way up with real farm.
urgot cannot be used as a "support" because he does not provide anything for his teammates that any other champ with 1 single hard cc does not provide. sion is better suited to a no-farm position because his single stun is on a lower cooldown. however, neither of these champs are good without farm because they both do massive damage WITH farm and basically do nothing without farm. that's why you channel farm into these champs.
trynd as a no-farm bot laner is a joke because he offers nothing to the team, yet it's something that you've brought up as "viable." -AD for a couple seconds is not enough to make a champ a support hero, especially when said champ does so well with true farm and REAL support heroes supporting him.
i don't consider karma a support hero either, for what it's worth, because her only skill that can really be used effectively without farm is her tether and that's her worst skill anyway.
and it's not just semantics. it's proper labeling. there's a difference. so when you guys want to discuss if a champ is viable without farm, just ask that. hate when i queue for a ranked game and i get the last pick guy who's like "IF I SUPPORT I ONLY SUPPORT YORICK SHACO OR FIORA" because those champs are all shit without farm, and what they're really saying is "i'm going to play a farm-dependent champ without farm, gl in your 4v5!" totally different from someone saying "i'm gonna play ap janna mid" because janna's ability to go mid lane has no bearing on shaco's ability to NOT go bot-lane. ya dig?
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Yorick makes a little sense for a no farm champ. His ult in any lategame scenario is 100% unreliant on any farm as you just use it on your AD and can dominate a lane without any items, though his non ult utility drops off about as hard as taric's non stun utility. At the very least yorick in no way makes it a 4v5 considering you can get practically 2.7 AD carries over the course of a fight if everything times right.
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United States13684 Posts
I think the difference is that I consider whoever isnt getting the farm in a game to be the support, even if they suck at it. Its why trynd can be a support of he goes bot.
My reading of your post is that you dont count that as a supoort just a shitty champ.
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On April 10 2012 00:09 Requizen wrote:
I'm not the highest ranked person to be talking about the meta game, but if there was a champ that was able to solo bot effectively enough, how worthwhile would a roamer/enemy jungle invader be as a replacement for a support? I've seen it work before (it was something dumb like a Shaco that kept roaming and stealing big monsters at camps), but that's probably because I'm pretty low ELO. Is there anything to 1 person per lane, 1 standard jungler, and 1 I-don't-really-need-a-lot-of-farm-so-I'll-roam-and-be-annoying-as-fuck champion?
We've already had this before, mostly with ali, eve w/ stun, and taric.
It stopped being played as much once people realized they needed to ward, and if you didn't get kills, or even if you did you'd most likely be behind.
But with this new patch adding the new exp per champ kill thing, roaming might be a thing again.
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Well yeah. With a support trynd you're effectively playing a 4v5 after level 5 or so.
Seriously I was so mad at the last CLG vs TSM game where hotshot wasn't getting farm on olaf and so built him "support". It was obvious to anyone watching that CLG had no prayer because they were in effect playing 4v5.
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On April 10 2012 00:40 Two_DoWn wrote:
I think the difference is that I consider whoever isnt getting the farm in a game to be the support, even if they suck at it. Its why trynd can be a support of he goes bot.
My reading of your post is that you dont count that as a supoort just a shitty champ.
Or you could count supports as being champions with supporting abilities?
Regardless, Tryndamere is terrible as a support because he is heavily dependent on expensive damage items to be effective. Supports use their skills and active items to benefit a team, not auto-attacks.
Also, having TwoToneTerran and Two_Down posting at the same time is confusing.
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People don't even really consider switching farm-priorities around as the game progresses yet. Like if you have a jungle Amumu, you should make sure he can farm as much as possible as soon as the laning phase ends. You wouldn't see anyone actually donating his farm to him though.
The same thing can be applied to "supports". It might be better to let your support farm a bunch at certain points in the game, for example if you have a strategy that involves getting a couple of key items at a cerain point in the game and going for an objective with those. You wouldn't get as much out of a big item and 800 gold on a carry and some small crap on the support as you would get out of a big item on the carry and a medium item on the support.
People should at least consider that a champion's "role" can change over the course of one game.
Yorick is one of these champs who could easily donate their farm to say the jungler as soon as laning is over.
On April 10 2012 00:42 Sandster wrote:
Well yeah. With a support trynd you're effectively playing a 4v5 after level 5 or so.
Mocking Shout is a ridiculously strong AD debuff. Against a mostly AD based team I wouldn't count support trynd out. -80 AD across the board at level 9 is HUGE.
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Regarding farm priority after laning - I agree, and people only played around that with Zilean a few months ago. But I think teams are realizing this - after initial laning phase they'll have Shyvana and their AD free farm top/bot lanes while the other 3 are grouped mid pressuring, for example.
Instead of giving supports some farm, teams instead adapted to have other champs pick up the big support items (Shurelia and Aegis especially). This lets supports sit on gp5 longer and feed more wards.
EDIT: If you're playing against a team that you'd actually consider having a champ do nothing but provide a -80 AD debuff, then have Trynd solo top and Malphite jungle, because Trynd should clearly be the best top lane in the game for your comp at that point.
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I actually played support trynd when I randomned a champ. Most useless thing ever. I stacked 4 gp10 items and stole our jungle while our ad carry managed to 1v2 botlane because we somehow got ahead. The game ended at 50 minutes with me actually having some items, sneaking through their jungle and spinning through the basewall to backdoor a turretless nexus.
Anyway, I see support as a role on a team. It's the champ that helps a carry get farmed and will help the team as much as he can without items. You can put any champion into the support role, just as you can play any champion as an ap carry or as you can jungle any champion. That ap garen and jungle orianna don't really do much doesn't matter.
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On April 09 2012 13:49 arnath wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 13:44 jadoth wrote:On April 09 2012 13:40 arnath wrote:
OK random question after my first Vayne game in a long time: Can you smart cast Condemn? I was spamming Shift-E on someone and Vayne wouldn't cast it OR move to get into range. I just sort of stutter stepped not doing anything until I manually casted it. ya i have noticed this too. you can smart cast it and i will go off fine if you just click once but if you spam it you just stutter step for some reason. This is a bug right? Moonbear?
I personally haven't had any experiences with this playing Vayne recently, but most likely, if you're spamming shift-E or E and there's some latency, you're overriding the input commands with enough frequency and making the game try to recalculate what it wants to do, especially if the range is changing or if LoS breaks. For instance, you might just get in range to E, recast the command to E just as the animation for E starts and cancel it, and queue up another command to E.
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Agreed, spine. Back before all the gap closing tanky dos champs when olaf was used almost exclusively as a jungler, 5's teams used to run him with a support centered mid (like zilean who works well with olaf) and then come midgame zilean would donate his farm to olaf ao olaf could get really beefy. But it's still rarely seen today and especially not in soloq.
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On April 09 2012 23:51 zodde wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 22:26 zulu_nation8 wrote:
solod drag at 4min with lee, apparently he ran 4ad reds, 5 apen reds, armor yellow/blues, ad quints, im guessing he didnt max q Tried it out in a bot game, didn't really work out that great... Did he really only have a doran's bladE? :O
yea, maybe some pots as well. I saw it on wingsofdeathx's stream, he was either lv4 or 5, definitely not 6. I'm gonna try it later as well. Which skill did you max first? His masteries were 21/9 with both points in extra damage to minions, extra damage dealt, no points in crit or ad/level, and points in decreased damage from minions and smite, no points in returning damage to minions.
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Playing Tristana, and this has happened a few times. I went to jump over a wall and the circle clearly shows that I'll end up on the other side. However, instead of jumping over, I just jump in place, not moving at all. Why does this happen? Is it a bug, or are there some walls she can't get over which is intended?
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you probably weren't close enough to the wall. it's always a hit or miss and if you miss you look really stupid doing it lol. that or you were going through the thickest wall in game because i'm pretty sure she can jump through most
btwbtw i think kog is the only champ in the game that is actually really good going 2 dorans pd. is there anyone else that this works on? i've played a few games going pd first now on him and it rapes
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Has anybody else noticed that when playing support in solo q your team is less likely to follow your suggestions than when you're playing any other role? Like there's some type of my champion is a carry therefore better than your support therefore you're suggestions are wrong mentality?
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
I thought they fixed it so you can't perform those types of jumps anymore.
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On April 10 2012 01:36 Sabin010 wrote:
Has anybody else noticed that when playing support in solo q your team is less likely to follow your suggestions than when you're playing any other role? Like there's some type of my champion is a carry therefore better than your support therefore you're suggestions are wrong mentality?
Yeah, support is typically under-appreciated, and many treat support as second-class citizens because you aren't the one getting all the kills/doing all the damage, even though the role is quite important and can be very impactful when done right.
Same issue to a lesser extent on junglers, because many in solo queue seem to think if you're not ganking their lane 24/7 and feeding them an easy lane you're worthless, regardless what you may be doing in terms of other lanes, buff/objective control, etc.
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I've noticed that in solo queue. They also like to tell you how to play.
I was with a Graves as Taric vs Soraka Vayne earlier. "Taric stop trying to trade until I'm 6" We proceed to get a double kill at 3. (Luckily he still followed me despite protesting.)
I didn't say anything I just went back and bought Philo/Wards.
Then comes "Taric buy wards"
It's silly too because Support/Jungler usually have the best map awareness.
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United States13684 Posts
On April 10 2012 00:48 spinesheath wrote:People don't even really consider switching farm-priorities around as the game progresses yet. Like if you have a jungle Amumu, you should make sure he can farm as much as possible as soon as the laning phase ends. You wouldn't see anyone actually donating his farm to him though. The same thing can be applied to "supports". It might be better to let your support farm a bunch at certain points in the game, for example if you have a strategy that involves getting a couple of key items at a cerain point in the game and going for an objective with those. You wouldn't get as much out of a big item and 800 gold on a carry and some small crap on the support as you would get out of a big item on the carry and a medium item on the support. People should at least consider that a champion's "role" can change over the course of one game. Yorick is one of these champs who could easily donate their farm to say the jungler as soon as laning is over. Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 00:42 Sandster wrote:
Well yeah. With a support trynd you're effectively playing a 4v5 after level 5 or so. Mocking Shout is a ridiculously strong AD debuff. Against a mostly AD based team I wouldn't count support trynd out. -80 AD across the board at level 9 is HUGE.
Part of the issue with farm spread is that it isnt as viceral in dota. Dota is very common to see wide variation in level between members of the same team, not to mention the other team. So doing things like getting Tide a fast 6 means a lot more than getting mummy a fast 6 in lol.
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EPT
