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Remember guys, this is the general discussion thread. Keep whine/QQ posts in the appropriate QQ memorial thread! Thanks! |
Ori, morg, lux, and zilean are all support centered AP's as are janna, soraka etc. riot designed the game so ALL champs benefit from gold and have scaling. Some are inherently better played as a mid than support simply because of their kits (zileans abusive laning, morg's great sustain, ori's and lux's burst potential being instakills on most lanes)
You're wrong if you say nunu wasn't designed as a support because he WAS designed to be a support centered champ (massive slows + bloodboil for your team? Yeah nothing support about it....) He eventuallly turned into a support centered jungler once jungling was realized to be mandatory in competitive play, which was even before 0 farm support metas became the standard.
I think people just have this silly view of seeing a ton of top laners being good junglers but not seeing champs interchange between other roles, like being a good AP mid or support, or ecen jungler/support like nunu.
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I don't understand why people think supports must have 0 farm. Just because it's the current meta doesn't mean it's the only way to do it.
For all intensive purposes, Maokai is a support/tank. He needs some farm in order not to instantly melt, but he certainly isn't farm hungry after 1-2 items. And his roles are initiation, disruption, and damage reduction.
Teams have been doing it for a while - have a support-based mid like Zilean/Galio or jungle like Maokai, get them a few big items to be successful, and then give their farm to someone else. (Whether you think Zilean is actually a good support is a different matter.) Teams used to rely on bot lane supports to get their aura items, and realized that they simply come too late. So their options were give the Soraka more farm, or to pick someone else (like Maokai) to get farm elsewhere and get the Shurelia/Aegis earlier.
The current definition of "support" is "0-farm babysitter." We've seen Urgot+Alistar lanes where ali roams from the start of the game and Urgot starts TP+blue and 1v2 bot to know that this isn't the only way to play bot lane, and that you don't always need to have a babysitter.
That being said - some champs should not be supports. It absolutely blew my mind to see hotshot run olaf with shurelia and aegis and 0 damage items. This is more kit-based though - you do not pick an olaf into your team without prioritizing farm for him.
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Ori's mana costs are too high for her to be a real support...
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United States13684 Posts
On April 09 2012 23:19 BlackPaladin wrote:
Ori, morg, lux, and zilean are all support centered AP's as are janna, soraka etc. riot designed the game so ALL champs benefit from gold and have scaling. Some are inherently better played as a mid than support simply because of their kits (zileans abusive laning, morg's great sustain, ori's and lux's burst potential being instakills on most lanes)
You're wrong if you say nunu wasn't designed as a support because he WAS designed to be a support centered champ (massive slows + bloodboil for your team? Yeah nothing support about it....) He eventuallly turned into a support centered jungler once jungling was realized to be mandatory in competitive play, which was even before 0 farm support metas became the standard.
I think people just have this silly view of seeing a ton of top laners being good junglers but not seeing champs interchange between other roles, like being a good AP mid or support, or ecen jungler/support like nunu.
Well, given the fact that nunu is an original champ, Imma go with they didnt know WHAT they wanted nunu to be, hence having 2 skills that are obviously intended to be farm dependent, a skill intended to help him lane, and a single skill that works as a support. To me, from a design standpoint, he reads as an ap champ designed to get a ton of farm and deal a ton of damage, not a support. Even using earlier definitions of support (ie from 2 years ago) he still, on paper, reads as a damager. His ult just scales too hard.
Its just people realized he didnt need farm to be effective, first in jungle, then in bot lane. Now we are starting to see people play him solo again because of how hard he bullies people and just how much damage he can do.
I feel this is just another case of terrible semantics being carried over from other games, mostly because riot insists on doing it. There is no such thing as a "support centered ap." There is an ap champ with lots of utility. Simple as that. Janna doesnt do any less damage than Annie. Hell, in terms of pure DPS Soraka is probably the most deadly ap champ in the game. Even then, at what point does utility make someone support? Annie has the potential to stun every single member of an enemy team all at one time. That doesnt make her an ap centered support. Karma has a ton of utility, but that doesnt make her a support champion either. Its the "Tank vs Tanky DPS" argument. Both mean the same damn thing. Its just people like to differentiate for absolutely no reason besides to confuse the hell out of everyone.
Trying to categorize champions as "support centered ap" and "regular support" is a kind of splitting hairs to make nomanclature from other games fit. The reality is the only difference between Morgana, Annie, and Janna is that their kits make them unique. With the same ammount of ap they all deal comprable damage. When you start to sheer off farm they all change. But even then I could make a very compelling argument that Annie is a BETTER support champion than Morg without farm because her ult allows her to stay safer than morg and her CC is point and click.
Not to mention that the definition of "support" has changed so much over the course of the game that everything has gotten so twisted that arguements like this happen and NO ONE can actually be right because there is no right answer. Hell, even the defining characteristic that we have now: that supports get no farm, is a relatively new phenomena.
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On April 09 2012 22:26 zulu_nation8 wrote:
solod drag at 4min with lee, apparently he ran 4ad reds, 5 apen reds, armor yellow/blues, ad quints, im guessing he didnt max q
Tried it out in a bot game, didn't really work out that great... Did he really only have a doran's bladE? :O
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Well, support really means that you are last (or second to last) farm priority on your team and you still need to do your job. So if your support Annie can do just as well on 0 farm as 0 farm Janna, then go ahead and go bot lane and babysit. And if your Nunu does just as much as Maokai having the second least farm on the team, then go ahead and jungle.
And if you can't? Well, there's a better selection of champs out there for the amount of farm you'd get in that role.
So hotshot, is olaf the best pick to get 90 cs in 25+ min and have only shurelia+aegis? Well, I think we know the answer to that.
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United States13684 Posts
I think another point is that we just havent evolved enough yet to actually know what a support is and who is actually good at it. Hell, we still dont even know how to PLAY supports optimally.
If you look at Dota, their version of a support is similar to ours in terms of low farm, buying wards, and so forth. The difference is how ACTIVE they are at all times. While the jungle differences (and jungler) takes some of the roaming/farming role out of the hands of the support players, even the so called ward bitch is way more active in dota than in LoL.
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On April 09 2012 21:44 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 13:22 gtrsrs wrote:
yo just for clarification, putting someone bot lane and then denying them farm doesn't make them a support champ. there is no "support urgot" because urgot doesn't have any skills that are buffs/shields/heals/boosts/whatever for his teammates. stacking gp10s does not make a champ a support champ, and buying auras does not make a champ a support champ. placing champs that need farm in a no-farm position just makes them underfarmed versions of themselves.
the question you guys are ACTUALLY asking is "can urgot perform without farm in a cheesy kill lane as the second AD-carry" and the answer depends on your opponents. will urgot without farm ever be as good as soraka or taric or whomever without farm? come on, you know the answer to that... I disagree with this HEAVILY. The ONLY qualification that is necesary for a champion to work as a support is that they are able to perform some function useful to the team without any items. Heals/sheilds/buffs for lane and late game are 1 way to do it. But it isnt the only way. Your definition means that blitzcrank and leona are just underfarmed versions of themselves. Hell, after this weekend your definition would mean that Janna, lulu, alistar, and soraka are all underfarmed versions of themselves when played bot because they can all be played more effectivly mid, top, or in the jungle. The real question that defines wether a champ works as a support is that even if they only have 10% of the items they would want they can still use 75% of their potential. Galio, for example, can perform at 60-75% with no farm. Hence why we see chauster use him bot.
yeah but your definition is wrong because you consider trynd and gp to be support heroes because they have (-) and (+) AD steroids respectively
i don't count leona or blitz as support heroes, they are part of kill lanes. same with panth and jarvan. just because you stick them bot lane doesn't make them support heroes. the way that SG plays blitzcrank is with a fuckton of farm and to be honest, blitzcrank has some of the best scaling in the game thanks to overdrive and powerfist.
galio, however, works as a support because his speed boost and shield resists are not affected by any level of farm. you see how he's different than urgot or trynd? also i said nothing about a champ's relative ability to solo lane so i don't know why you're bringing up janna or lulu who are clearly support heroes (buffs, debuffs, cc, most of which do not scale with farm)
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On April 09 2012 21:27 epoc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 16:12 obesechicken13 wrote:
You know how in Dota a single champ can farm multiple lanes? Well I just thought... can't some junglers do that too? Like if you have a twitch jungling and a huge wave is pushing top, you can have twitch come top, farm the wave, go back to the jungle, and do it again once bot starts pushing essentially funneling farm into one champion. how can you farm multiple lanes in dota? You cannot be at two places at once. Btw what team is Wingsofdeath in?
Farm one lane, then use tp scroll to get to the other lane to farm it. ie push/farm one lane until it's pushing then tp to farm another lane that's pushing into your base, probably with a big wave.
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True, but dota is a lot different. The difficulty in aoe-farming and ability to deny make it much more rewarding to roam. And most AD carries in league really suffer in 1v2 lanes and would be permanently zoned.
Say you had a roaming twitch at the expense of a bot lane support, and you strike fear in the hearts of top/mid/jungle at the expense of your bot lane getting absolutely wrecked. This would be acceptable as long as you tailor your team - i.e.if you run a competent 1v2 laner bot and put your AD top to 1v1.
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^just a theorycraft attempt.
I'm betting people have tried it 
I mean for twitch to be a jungler, and to have a normal bot lane. Of course it doesn't need to be twitch. It could just as easily be shyvana.
I heard at IGN people were doing AP Soraka mid. Any vods of that?
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I'm not the highest ranked person to be talking about the meta game, but if there was a champ that was able to solo bot effectively enough, how worthwhile would a roamer/enemy jungle invader be as a replacement for a support? I've seen it work before (it was something dumb like a Shaco that kept roaming and stealing big monsters at camps), but that's probably because I'm pretty low ELO. Is there anything to 1 person per lane, 1 standard jungler, and 1 I-don't-really-need-a-lot-of-farm-so-I'll-roam-and-be-annoying-as-fuck champion?
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Look in the IGN thread. Dignitas ran AP soraka quite a bit day 1.
And yeah it's theorycraft, but that roaming Twitch is actually not ideal because Twitch absolutely needs farm. You don't want your roamer to be the best scaling champ on your team. Someone like Alistar is probably a better choice.
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Most of it would be stomped out by proper teamplay and warding, I'd imagine. Then again there was one tourney game recently where a twitch dominated, who knows.
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Wait, that's pretty cool. Was the Twitch bot lane or jungle? Twitch would be good *if* he can actually survive and get farm in bot lane.
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My argument is simply you can play champs as a support as long as they have enough utility to properly back it up (like yorick is a support centered top laner). By support centered i simply mean their kits allow them to properly support your team through their utility. They aren't picked to be the main damage dealers on your team like an irelia or brand would be, but are picked instead for their utility to the team, either through shields, hard cc, soft cc, heals, etc. I think we're arguing different things though cause you're talking about 0 farm supports specifically, and i'm mainly saying a champ can be a "support" with or without farm, which goes against the start of this discussion that "buildinf a champ like a support doesn't make them a support." My argument is simply put as "yes it does if they have the proper utility to support your team, here are examples of both the usual 0 farm supports doing awesome with farm, and regular support-centered champs that you generally do funnel farm to." All support styles champs can use farm, and some need it a but more than others. Like the example given where mao needs a bit of farm to not instantly blow up (same can be said of galio, and you'll see chauster grab a lot of cs when possible to remedy it) Even janna and soraka need SOME farm so they can afford shurelyas, wards, or other aura items.
It's not me trying to give random labels to champs but to more or less me trying to describe what a champ like is in the simplest way. I guess I did it poorly though. I just feel the idea of a support MUST have "0" farm to be a proper "support" is wrong, and is a flawed idea in this game and is just another byproduct of funneling gold to the carry in dota.
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United States13684 Posts
On April 10 2012 00:01 gtrsrs wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 21:44 Two_DoWn wrote:On April 09 2012 13:22 gtrsrs wrote:
yo just for clarification, putting someone bot lane and then denying them farm doesn't make them a support champ. there is no "support urgot" because urgot doesn't have any skills that are buffs/shields/heals/boosts/whatever for his teammates. stacking gp10s does not make a champ a support champ, and buying auras does not make a champ a support champ. placing champs that need farm in a no-farm position just makes them underfarmed versions of themselves.
the question you guys are ACTUALLY asking is "can urgot perform without farm in a cheesy kill lane as the second AD-carry" and the answer depends on your opponents. will urgot without farm ever be as good as soraka or taric or whomever without farm? come on, you know the answer to that... I disagree with this HEAVILY. The ONLY qualification that is necesary for a champion to work as a support is that they are able to perform some function useful to the team without any items. Heals/sheilds/buffs for lane and late game are 1 way to do it. But it isnt the only way. Your definition means that blitzcrank and leona are just underfarmed versions of themselves. Hell, after this weekend your definition would mean that Janna, lulu, alistar, and soraka are all underfarmed versions of themselves when played bot because they can all be played more effectivly mid, top, or in the jungle. The real question that defines wether a champ works as a support is that even if they only have 10% of the items they would want they can still use 75% of their potential. Galio, for example, can perform at 60-75% with no farm. Hence why we see chauster use him bot. yeah but your definition is wrong because you consider trynd and gp to be support heroes because they have (-) and (+) AD steroids respectively i don't count leona or blitz as support heroes, they are part of kill lanes. same with panth and jarvan. just because you stick them bot lane doesn't make them support heroes. the way that SG plays blitzcrank is with a fuckton of farm and to be honest, blitzcrank has some of the best scaling in the game thanks to overdrive and powerfist. galio, however, works as a support because his speed boost and shield resists are not affected by any level of farm. you see how he's different than urgot or trynd? also i said nothing about a champ's relative ability to solo lane so i don't know why you're bringing up janna or lulu who are clearly support heroes (buffs, debuffs, cc, most of which do not scale with farm)
Solo mid janna has some of the best damage and wave clear in the game in q. Lulu proved at IPL that when farmed she can dominate games.
The problem with your definition is it is FAR to champ specific. Buffs and debuffs make champions support, but gp and trynd have them and arent. And last I checked, GP e doesnt scale with farm. His ult damage does, but the utility doesnt,. Kind of odd that you say galio utility doesnt scale with farm but GP does.
As for kill lanes: I am 99% sure that even in kill lanes 1 person is still getting the farm in that lane. It is just more efficient. So call it whatever you want, but someone is going to end up not getting farmed.
The real question is how you want to DEFINE support. And this gets into why you are just being pedantic for absolutely no reason. Pantheon and Singed play top lane completely differently, but they are both tanky dps. Leona and Soraka both play bot lane differently, but they are both support. Currently (emphasis on CURRENTLY) the support is whoever is going to not be eating the farm in a game. It does not depend on the items they get, or the style that they play, simply the farm pattern they take. A jungle is a jungle because that is where he gets his farm. Same with support.
Having utility does not make someone more of a support than someone else if they both arent getting farm. They are both filling the same role for their team: voluntarily giving up farm (because that IS the most efficeint way to play) while still attempting to fulfil some role that makes their team better. Kill lanes do it by killing shit. Sustainers heal. GP, Galio, and Nunu all buff. My definition covers all of them. Yours gets convoluted and twisted for no reason other than to be complicated for the sake of being complicated. I just dont get how you can see Nunu as a support and GP as not. It makes no fucking sense. They each have one buff. They each have an ultimate that slows. They each have a self heal. They each have a ranged slow. But one is a support and one isnt.
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I don't think I've ever heard somoene say a proper support must have 0 farm to be a proper support, they just do really well with 0 farm compared to other champs that do really fucking shit with 0 farm.
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United States13684 Posts
On April 10 2012 00:21 JackDino wrote:
I don't think I've ever heard somoene say a proper support must have 0 farm to be a proper support, they just do really well with 0 farm compared to other champs that do really fucking shit with 0 farm.
I think the key is that there is only enough farm in the game for 4 people. Someone will get left out. My definition for that role is the support. Even if the meta changes to having roamers, that is still a support. Even if everyone switches to kill lanes, it is more efficient to have the creeps go to one person. The other person is the support.
Now, I dont think you necessarily have to have 0 farm. I actually think that we do need to start moving to a place where the support is able to pick up more farm here and there in order to become slightly more useful. But you cannot debate that it is BETTER to have 4 farmed champions over 3 farmed ones and 2 semi farmed ones. The 4 farmed team wins every time. It just becomes a question of how to get a little more farm onto one person without damaging the farm of everyone else.
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On April 10 2012 00:21 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 00:01 gtrsrs wrote:On April 09 2012 21:44 Two_DoWn wrote:On April 09 2012 13:22 gtrsrs wrote:
yo just for clarification, putting someone bot lane and then denying them farm doesn't make them a support champ. there is no "support urgot" because urgot doesn't have any skills that are buffs/shields/heals/boosts/whatever for his teammates. stacking gp10s does not make a champ a support champ, and buying auras does not make a champ a support champ. placing champs that need farm in a no-farm position just makes them underfarmed versions of themselves.
the question you guys are ACTUALLY asking is "can urgot perform without farm in a cheesy kill lane as the second AD-carry" and the answer depends on your opponents. will urgot without farm ever be as good as soraka or taric or whomever without farm? come on, you know the answer to that... I disagree with this HEAVILY. The ONLY qualification that is necesary for a champion to work as a support is that they are able to perform some function useful to the team without any items. Heals/sheilds/buffs for lane and late game are 1 way to do it. But it isnt the only way. Your definition means that blitzcrank and leona are just underfarmed versions of themselves. Hell, after this weekend your definition would mean that Janna, lulu, alistar, and soraka are all underfarmed versions of themselves when played bot because they can all be played more effectivly mid, top, or in the jungle. The real question that defines wether a champ works as a support is that even if they only have 10% of the items they would want they can still use 75% of their potential. Galio, for example, can perform at 60-75% with no farm. Hence why we see chauster use him bot. yeah but your definition is wrong because you consider trynd and gp to be support heroes because they have (-) and (+) AD steroids respectively i don't count leona or blitz as support heroes, they are part of kill lanes. same with panth and jarvan. just because you stick them bot lane doesn't make them support heroes. the way that SG plays blitzcrank is with a fuckton of farm and to be honest, blitzcrank has some of the best scaling in the game thanks to overdrive and powerfist. galio, however, works as a support because his speed boost and shield resists are not affected by any level of farm. you see how he's different than urgot or trynd? also i said nothing about a champ's relative ability to solo lane so i don't know why you're bringing up janna or lulu who are clearly support heroes (buffs, debuffs, cc, most of which do not scale with farm) Solo mid janna has some of the best damage and wave clear in the game in q. Lulu proved at IPL that when farmed she can dominate games. The problem with your definition is it is FAR to champ specific. Buffs and debuffs make champions support, but gp and trynd have them and arent. And last I checked, GP e doesnt scale with farm. His ult damage does, but the utility doesnt,. Kind of odd that you say galio utility doesnt scale with farm but GP does. As for kill lanes: I am 99% sure that even in kill lanes 1 person is still getting the farm in that lane. It is just more efficient. So call it whatever you want, but someone is going to end up not getting farmed. The real question is how you want to DEFINE support. And this gets into why you are just being pedantic for absolutely no reason. Pantheon and Singed play top lane completely differently, but they are both tanky dps. Leona and Soraka both play bot lane differently, but they are both support. Currently (emphasis on CURRENTLY) the support is whoever is going to not be eating the farm in a game. It does not depend on the items they get, or the style that they play, simply the farm pattern they take. A jungle is a jungle because that is where he gets his farm. Same with support. Having utility does not make someone more of a support than someone else if they both arent getting farm. They are both filling the same role for their team: voluntarily giving up farm (because that IS the most efficeint way to play) while still attempting to fulfil some role that makes their team better. Kill lanes do it by killing shit. Sustainers heal. GP, Galio, and Nunu all buff. My definition covers all of them. Yours gets convoluted and twisted for no reason other than to be complicated for the sake of being complicated. I just dont get how you can see Nunu as a support and GP as not. It makes no fucking sense. They each have one buff. They each have an ultimate that slows. They each have a self heal. They each have a ranged slow. But one is a support and one isnt.
Kill lanes work for the one not getting CS, because kills and assists give a ton of gold. Every single champion in a kill lane would be useless without kills/assists.
A no-farm no-kills Pantheon is SO much weaker than a Soraka with the same gold, from a teamfight perspective.
As for the terminology, support champions are champions that can support the other members of your team. Obvious, eh?
So if you want to be completely politically correct, (almost) every single champion is a support champion, somehow.
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