On March 20 2012 22:18 Scip wrote: I just came here to say I'm very sad about the Jax nerf. I suppose more health/lvl is nice, but I don't consider it anywhere near enough to compensate for the loss of power on the ultimate. I mean really, it used to give 25/45/65 AP/AD, now it gives 25/35/45 Armor/MR, so pathetic.
Let me just remind you what defined jax back in season 1, before the jungle changes. attack speed buff of 6%/10%/14% (or was it 10%/12%/14%?) per autoattack, stacked up to ten times that. +2 HP for AP and +3 HP for AD active that granted him, with ninja tabi, about 35/70/87 magic resistance. up to 37% dodge that made him incredibly resistant to autoattacks.
He is merely a shell of what he had been before, the move of attack speed buff from his ultimate to his passive (despite being a nerf in numbers) in combination with the jungle remake made him an almost viable jungle, though nowhere near as strong as the top tier.
His ultimate after remake gave him just enough power to be able to engage and defeat almost any top champion, which is more than fair considering his lack of sustain and also mana problems in difficult lanes. That made him a passable, even if not high tier, top lane.
His late game power after the rameke, both as a jungle and as a top lane, is grossly overestimated, with a whole score of champions having significantly better scaling.
And now this change, hiding behind the veil of a buff to "increase his longevity in teamfights" will be the final nail in the coffin. His point is, and always was, ridiculous 1v1 DPS. This change strives to make him the boy who jumps first into the teamfights.
But that is something he will never be. With the only AoE of his being the stun on 15 second cooldown, with no CC reduction and with limited ability to chase important targets while dealing significant damage will condemn him to wane into mediocreness. His damage is no longer unparalleled, his engagements in lane no longer lethal.
He is now just a mad boy who likes to smack people with a lamppost.
I think the dodge numbers there are off eg. 37% dodge is hard to do since dodge stacks multiplicatively(unless you went full dodge runes... is that possible?), But yeah 10 stacks of 14% attack speed increase is so much more than the 6 stacks we get now. His ult is a huge nerf too since AD and AP are worth more than MR and armor in terms of gold.
On March 20 2012 23:21 sylverfyre wrote: I feel they should be hitting the CDR on the blue buff, not the Mana. There's so many CDR items that are completely fucking ignored because casters dont want to itemize CDR that they aren't going to use all the time - especially when you consider that the times they have blue buff are the times that they want to be looking to make powerplays.
CDR has issues beyond just blue buff. Another facet of the problem is that mana regen is expensive (as much in how it limits your itemization as in its actual gold cost). Without any CDR Zilean can expend 40 mana per second (200 mp5). You can't even get a quarter of that regen from a single item, let alone deal with capped CDR.
Moreover, once the laning phase ends the value of mana regen drops dramatically. It becomes much easier to use mana in moderation and enter team fights with a full/nearly full mana bar, and many/most team fights end with everyone backing to base (following either defeat or victory + objective). It's not entirely worthless, but it's so far from the value of every other stat that it might as well be.
Items like Nashor's Tooth, DFG, or Soul Shroud would be much more common if the mana regen on them actually amounted to anything. You could double the mana regen on these items and people would still look at them unfavorably.
Nerfing the CDR on the blue buff would be pointless, the reason most AP don't build CDR is because without the mana portion of the blue buff spending your mana even faster isn't exactly appealing.
also, DFG has CDR and is fairly popular, although the CDR could be removed and it would stay equally as popular I would guess.
On March 20 2012 11:43 beefhamburger wrote: I wonder who else the new MoM item will be good on other than Mundo. Maybe Poppy with her passive and Fiora right before she uses her ult and lifesteals.
Trynda will probably like it, and riven already builds hexdrinker from time to time, seems like she could use MoM as well vs heavy magic teams.
Not really, it is a weak item late game for tryn and if you want to build survivalbility, go mallet+atmas or GA after IE/PD. I would take a second PD or BT + green pot for the same price instead of the MoM. The new item is good late game item for melees like panth, wukong, lee.
On March 21 2012 00:18 GoSuChicken wrote: no fiora nerf ((
Theres no need to nerf fiora, for she is not broken. Shes a grand duelist, shes gonna beat most toplaners in a duel. She has no escape from a teamfight and is focussed down easily. In other words, shes a female XinZao and working as intended
Aside from fiora i dont think ive ever seen a top lane hero im actually afraid of as Riven.
yeah that's what I was thinking. If blue buff is really nerfed hard people are just going to start building chalice on anivia etc, which is a much better item than tear anyway so not much loss.
On March 21 2012 01:19 Slusher wrote: Nerfing the CDR on the blue buff would be pointless, the reason most AP don't build CDR is because without the mana portion of the blue buff spending your mana even faster isn't exactly appealing.
also, DFG has CDR and is fairly popular, although the CDR could be removed and it would stay equally as popular I would guess.
I guess we could look at dominion and see if people are building cdr there, since it doesn't have a blue.
On March 21 2012 01:31 UniversalSnip wrote: yeah that's what I was thinking. If blue buff is really nerfed hard people are just going to start building chalice on anivia etc, which is a much better item than tear anyway so not much loss.
I don't think Chalice even helps for Anivia. She does need sustained mana help but most of the really blue dependent heroes are heroes that burn through 1k mana in the span of less than 10 seconds. That's why they get Tear instead of Chalice to begin with. Chalice doesn't help you in fights with that kind of mana usage because you don't have 5-10 seconds to wait for your mana in a teamfight.
Like you can't really replace Tear with Chalice because they attack different problems. Chalice is a sustain item, while Tear is an item designed to give you a mana buffer for high burst mana usage. Having regen doesn't replace that, because even at full rate regen, Chalice isn't going to recover mana equivalent to stacked Tear mana in any reasonable time-frame.
Design-wise blue buff is awkward because it gives so much regen that it solves problems with both burst AND sustained mana usage, while ALSO giving CDR. Nerfing the mana regen component serves to hurt heroes that are making use of both facets of the regen.
On March 21 2012 01:10 Two_DoWn wrote: I'd like chalice a LOT if you could combine it with a negatron or even another null magic mantle just to have the MR scale a bit into late game.
That doesn't have much to do with why Chalice isn't common. The problem is that generally speaking mid APs get blue, top lanes need to rush sustain, and supports/junglers grab philo. So Chalice is either not needed or delays more important parts of a build.
Chalice doesn't really need a late game upgrade because the cost for swapping it out is only 267g. Mana regen isn't all that important late game anyway since by that point mana pools are much larger and there aren't as many situations where you need to sustain your mana.
I guess we could look at dominion and see if people are building cdr there, since it doesn't have a blue.
ugh, let's not
Dominion player here, I have not seen AP champions focus too much on cdr items despite the fact there is no blue buff, they mostly just build straight AP/tanky ap/sustain(revolver/wota). The only champion that consistently build cdr item(Dfg in this case) is AP Shaco.
On March 21 2012 00:18 GoSuChicken wrote: no fiora nerf ((
Theres no need to nerf fiora, for she is not broken. Shes a grand duelist, shes gonna beat most toplaners in a duel. She has no escape from a teamfight and is focussed down easily. In other words, shes a female XinZao and working as intended
Aside from fiora i dont think ive ever seen a top lane hero im actually afraid of as Riven.
That bitch absolutely terrifys me.
I've yet to lose a lane to Riven as Mordekaiser. Worst I've done was to go even early on (first few levels we'd kill each other), but she couldn't kill me after level 6, and I'd usually kill the tower pretty soon after that.
It's not easy, though, and I'd not win the lane if I didn't play both Morde and Riven and know how to harrass without getting caught by Riven's W. (You need to wait until she has used either Q or W on minions. If she doesn't, that's fine, she'll miss out on too much farm eventually, and you harrass her while she's farming anyway.)
On March 21 2012 00:18 GoSuChicken wrote: no fiora nerf ((
Theres no need to nerf fiora, for she is not broken. Shes a grand duelist, shes gonna beat most toplaners in a duel. She has no escape from a teamfight and is focussed down easily. In other words, shes a female XinZao and working as intended
Aside from fiora i dont think ive ever seen a top lane hero im actually afraid of as Riven.
That bitch absolutely terrifys me.
I've yet to lose a lane to Riven as Mordekaiser. Worst I've done was to go even early on (first few levels we'd kill each other), but she couldn't kill me after level 6, and I'd usually kill the tower pretty soon after that.
It's not easy, though, and I'd not win the lane if I didn't play both Morde and Riven and know how to harrass without getting caught by Riven's W. (You need to wait until she has used either Q or W on minions. If she doesn't, that's fine, she'll miss out on too much farm eventually, and you harrass her while she's farming anyway.)
I really feel aslong as you can get that fast kill on morde(which is very possible with the way people build him nowdays, i.e squishy) at lvl 4-5 you can easily just go in everytime your ults up and kill him/ force a recall or zone him off creeps.
I am kinda worried about Swain's viability being cut down because of this bluebuff nerf. He is a good toplane counterpick for me, but with even less mana regen from bluebuff its going to be hard to keep that ult up for the entire teamfight...
Jax could have 37% of dodge with ninja tabi, dodge quints, yellows, masteries and lvl5 counterstrike. What a beast. I think I will play Olaf now instead, he is much faster jungle, usually a stronger laner and also usually stronger in teamfights. Jax is better at escaping stuff, aye, that's why I call him "the slippery eel" (try catching one, impossible) but olaf doesn't need to run in half the circumstances jax does.
EPT
((
