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Remember guys, this is the general discussion thread. Keep whine/QQ posts in the appropriate QQ memorial thread! Thanks! |
On March 20 2012 21:25 nojitosunrise wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 21:23 Zato-1 wrote:
Riot effectively killed Anivia with this patch. Or they forced her to go bot lane with soraka. I think Riot hates AP mid. The reason AP mid exists is because of blue buff access
Clearly most OP champions aren't AP mids.
Oh wait, they are. Nerfing them all some by nerfing blue buff (which has been ridiculously good forever) seems like a cleaner solution than nerfing like 10 champs.
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United States47024 Posts
Something needed to be done about blue buff.
The problem is I don't think hitting the mana regen was the right approach because that affects different APs too asymmetrically. You don't actually address the problem of blue fully, you just damage the viability of certain AP champions.
On March 20 2012 21:29 dismiss wrote:
Clearly most OP champions aren't AP mids.
Oh wait, they are. Nerfing them all some by nerfing blue buff (which has been ridiculously good forever) seems like a cleaner solution than nerfing like 10 champs.
Except nerfing blue buff doesn't even hit those "OP" champions most efficiently.
The guys that get hurt most are mostly APs that already aren't that strong, like Zilean, Anivia, and Kassadin.
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On March 20 2012 21:23 Zato-1 wrote:
Riot effectively killed Anivia with this patch.
I'd rather see Anivia egged for a while until she gets a couple of buffs than have blue buff stay as it was before.
Nerf blue + buff Anivia as necessary and the game's in a better state than before.
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On March 20 2012 21:28 Gondlem wrote:
SV so hilarious right now on his stream. Anyone know who the Ryze he's duoing with is?
loco
I'd hate to duo with saint lol always pushes lane >.>
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So, kennen will remain op... that makes me sad. I was hoping that after the patch taking longer than usual, there would be some nice balance workings. I want to play veigar and not get screwed over 
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On March 20 2012 21:39 seRapH wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 21:28 Gondlem wrote:
SV so hilarious right now on his stream. Anyone know who the Ryze he's duoing with is? loco I'd hate to duo with saint lol always pushes lane >.>
Sometimes, though when he did it at the start after fb it was the right call IMO. Pushed a massive wave into the tower when Annie was level 3, and Ryze got a fair bit of extra experience out of it once the wave pushed back.
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On March 20 2012 21:46 Dark_Chill wrote:So, kennen will remain op... that makes me sad. I was hoping that after the patch taking longer than usual, there would be some nice balance workings. I want to play veigar and not get screwed over
Kennen? How about Vlad?
And Ori gets hit pretty hard by this too.
The guys who gain mana back on spells (Karthus, Swain, Annie) will probably have a better time.
Maybe the idea of this blue nerf was to get people to build dorans rings into AP instead of WotA.
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Anivia is too good with blue and too weak without it. She needs a bit attention but she certainly shouldn´t block bluebuff adjustments.
The changes might have huge consequences, for example it´s an indirect nerf to manaless junglers - their main benefit is that they can gift blue to mid very early.
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On March 20 2012 21:54 Doctorbeat wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 21:46 Dark_Chill wrote:So, kennen will remain op... that makes me sad. I was hoping that after the patch taking longer than usual, there would be some nice balance workings. I want to play veigar and not get screwed over Kennen? How about Vlad? And Ori gets hit pretty hard by this too. The guys who gain mana back on spells (Karthus, Swain, Annie) will probably have a better time. Maybe the idea of this blue nerf was to get people to build dorans rings into AP instead of WotA.
Except that the ones that are strongest with WotA (Kennen, Vlad) are now even more relatively strong. I haven't been able to play yet, so I'm not sure to what extent this mp5 nerf will affect things.
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On March 20 2012 21:55 Unentschieden wrote:
Anivia is too good with blue and too weak without it. She needs a bit attention but she certainly shouldn´t block bluebuff adjustments.
The changes might have huge consequences, for example it´s an indirect nerf to manaless junglers - their main benefit is that they can gift blue to mid very early.
=s If anything it's a buff to them because they clear faster than mana junglers now do with blue? They can still gift it just fine. Even with 1000 mana it's just a 33.33% nerf
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
I just came here to say I'm very sad about the Jax nerf. I suppose more health/lvl is nice, but I don't consider it anywhere near enough to compensate for the loss of power on the ultimate. I mean really, it used to give 25/45/65 AP/AD, now it gives 25/35/45 Armor/MR, so pathetic.
Let me just remind you what defined jax back in season 1, before the jungle changes.
attack speed buff of 6%/10%/14% (or was it 10%/12%/14%?) per autoattack, stacked up to ten times that.
+2 HP for AP and +3 HP for AD
active that granted him, with ninja tabi, about 35/70/87 magic resistance.
up to 37% dodge that made him incredibly resistant to autoattacks.
He is merely a shell of what he had been before, the move of attack speed buff from his ultimate to his passive (despite being a nerf in numbers) in combination with the jungle remake made him an almost viable jungle, though nowhere near as strong as the top tier.
His ultimate after remake gave him just enough power to be able to engage and defeat almost any top champion, which is more than fair considering his lack of sustain and also mana problems in difficult lanes. That made him a passable, even if not high tier, top lane.
His late game power after the rameke, both as a jungle and as a top lane, is grossly overestimated, with a whole score of champions having significantly better scaling.
And now this change, hiding behind the veil of a buff to "increase his longevity in teamfights" will be the final nail in the coffin. His point is, and always was, ridiculous 1v1 DPS. This change strives to make him the boy who jumps first into the teamfights.
But that is something he will never be. With the only AoE of his being the stun on 15 second cooldown, with no CC reduction and with limited ability to chase important targets while dealing significant damage will condemn him to wane into mediocreness. His damage is no longer unparalleled, his engagements in lane no longer lethal.
He is now just a mad boy who likes to smack people with a lamppost.
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A few thoughts based on reading:
The only way that they can actually make Shen's ult a non global is to change the way they consider him: he would HAVE to be considered a jungle, played and ballanced as such. TF is mid, which gives him access to both lanes. Noct has access to all 3 in jungle. Pantheon doesnt, but he is a fringe case because his laning is so strong that he doesnt NEED his ult to be viable and do his job. If you want to limit shen ult, they he needs to be in jungle in order to not be trash, and as a result he would need to be reworked as such.
I dint think blue is gonna be that big a deal. It still gives an insane ammount of flat regen, which DWARFS any benifit you gain from the scaling buff. Its like complaining that the free cookies you get at work have 2 less sprinkles on top.
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Just because Jax was different before and not that good now doesnt mean he wasnt broken.
Can we all just wait out how the blues will go, alot of people bitched about the new jungle aswell and now people dont know any different while its still balanced.
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On March 20 2012 22:28 jcarlsoniv wrote:
But...sprinkles!!!
I know buddy, but its OK. Viktor buffs!
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It does add some depth to the game when you're facing an anivia and know that if you can steal/pressure/etc...the enemy blue so that Anivia doesn't get it that you will have a large window of opportunity to force team fights. Not that I'm saying the change will have any effect on this atm.
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United States47024 Posts
On March 20 2012 22:27 Two_DoWn wrote:
I dint think blue is gonna be that big a deal. It still gives an insane ammount of flat regen, which DWARFS any benifit you gain from the scaling buff. Its like complaining that the free cookies you get at work have 2 less sprinkles on top.
No?
The flat regen is 25 mana regen per 5. The scaling regen is 0.5% max mana per second. The point at which the scaling mana regen accounts for more than the flat component is at 1000 mana (used to be 500). The flat regen does not "dwarf" the scaling buff, especially for APs (and even for non-APs that have significant spell usage but low mana pools, this is definitely noticeable). For APs mid and lategame, when you have 2k+ mana, the scaling regen is absolutely the FAR more significant component.
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On March 20 2012 22:34 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 22:27 Two_DoWn wrote:
I dint think blue is gonna be that big a deal. It still gives an insane ammount of flat regen, which DWARFS any benifit you gain from the scaling buff. Its like complaining that the free cookies you get at work have 2 less sprinkles on top. No? The flat regen is 25 mana regen per 5. The scaling regen is 0.5% max mana per second. The point at which the scaling mana regen accounts for more than the flat component is at 1000 mana (used to be 500). The flat regen does not "dwarf" the scaling buff, especially for APs (and even for non-APs that have significant spell usage but low mana pools, this is definitely noticeable). For APs mid and lategame, when you have 2k+ mana, the scaling regen is absolutely the FAR more significant component.
Thats the breakeven point, not the transfer point, but I should have specified early game, which is what I was talking about.
Early game it wont matter. Mid-Late I dont think it should matter in any meanigful way. You are telling me that a caster with 2k mana isnt gonna be able to manage their mana with blue buff?
Cuz that is the real distinction I am trying to draw here: ATM blue is free 100% mana if you play smart. Will it still be free 100% mana after the change if you play it smart? Im willing to go out on a limb and say yes. In which case, the nerf doesnt matter.
After all, most of the time blue is just good for creating a giant dick measuring contest mid anyway, now you just have 2 mids throwing 2 less spells at eachother every minute.
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United States47024 Posts
On March 20 2012 22:47 Two_DoWn wrote:
Early game it wont matter. Mid-Late I dont think it should matter in any meanigful way. You are telling me that a caster with 2k mana isnt gonna be able to manage their mana with blue buff?
That entirely depends on the hero in question and you know it.
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On March 20 2012 22:47 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 22:34 TheYango wrote:On March 20 2012 22:27 Two_DoWn wrote:
I dint think blue is gonna be that big a deal. It still gives an insane ammount of flat regen, which DWARFS any benifit you gain from the scaling buff. Its like complaining that the free cookies you get at work have 2 less sprinkles on top. No? The flat regen is 25 mana regen per 5. The scaling regen is 0.5% max mana per second. The point at which the scaling mana regen accounts for more than the flat component is at 1000 mana (used to be 500). The flat regen does not "dwarf" the scaling buff, especially for APs (and even for non-APs that have significant spell usage but low mana pools, this is definitely noticeable). For APs mid and lategame, when you have 2k+ mana, the scaling regen is absolutely the FAR more significant component. Thats the breakeven point, not the transfer point, but I should have specified early game, which is what I was talking about. Early game it wont matter. Mid-Late I dont think it should matter in any meanigful way. You are telling me that a caster with 2k mana isnt gonna be able to manage their mana with blue buff? Cuz that is the real distinction I am trying to draw here: ATM blue is free 100% mana if you play smart. Will it still be free 100% mana after the change if you play it smart? Im willing to go out on a limb and say yes. In which case, the nerf doesnt matter. After all, most of the time blue is just good for creating a giant dick measuring contest mid anyway, now you just have 2 mids throwing 2 less spells at eachother every minute.
I disagree and I think it will matter late game. This is not about the laning phase in my opinion but about late-game sustain. I think that Riot is trying to make it easier for the enemy team to regain momentum after they lost a fight. At the moment due to the large life steal that people build and blue buff, you can regenerate too easily after a fight without returning to the fountain.
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EPT
