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Remember guys, this is the general discussion thread. Keep whine/QQ posts in the appropriate QQ memorial thread! Thanks! |
On March 21 2012 03:14 Tooplark wrote:
Problem with LoL itemization:
Fully completed items are too effective. On a ranged DPS, if you have 2 dblades and 2 of brutalizer, wriggles, exe calling, or any other ~1.5k gold item, you are straight up behind the enemy ranged DPS with IE. Even if you abuse the early advantage and get another 1-1.5k gold than him, you're still behind.
It doesn't matter what non-IE combination of items you buy. As soon as your enemy finishes his IE, you're behind, unless you managed to delay his build so much that you finish it at roughly the same time.
It's not just ranged DPS either. Ranged DPS is just easier since Infinity Edge is the best item in the game from every possible perspective. On APs, Haunting Guise+NLR basically has to delay the enemy from rushing their DCap by almost 2k gold.
This is less true on tanks, where itemization is far more reactive and something like Atmogs really actually does have a hideously large abusable period, where rushing either item individually isn't near as big of a boost as comparable early game items.
Of course, this might be dismissible as IE being ridiculously overpowered, since it's not nearly as clear-cut with BC or BT, but I think it's a serious actual real problem.
shhh,I love when the other ad goes back and buys a BF and a zeal.Or a wriggles.Moar free wins for me k tnx.
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On March 21 2012 03:16 TheKefka wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 03:14 Tooplark wrote:
Problem with LoL itemization:
Fully completed items are too effective. On a ranged DPS, if you have 2 dblades and 2 of brutalizer, wriggles, exe calling, or any other ~1.5k gold item, you are straight up behind the enemy ranged DPS with IE. Even if you abuse the early advantage and get another 1-1.5k gold than him, you're still behind.
It doesn't matter what non-IE combination of items you buy. As soon as your enemy finishes his IE, you're behind, unless you managed to delay his build so much that you finish it at roughly the same time.
It's not just ranged DPS either. Ranged DPS is just easier since Infinity Edge is the best item in the game from every possible perspective. On APs, Haunting Guise+NLR basically has to delay the enemy from rushing their DCap by almost 2k gold.
This is less true on tanks, where itemization is far more reactive and something like Atmogs really actually does have a hideously large abusable period, where rushing either item individually isn't near as big of a boost as comparable early game items.
Of course, this might be dismissible as IE being ridiculously overpowered, since it's not nearly as clear-cut with BC or BT, but I think it's a serious actual real problem. shhh,I love when the other ad goes back and buys a BF and a zeal.Or a wriggles.Moar free wins for me k tnx.
Disagree, IE by itself is 10 extra AD, 7% extra crit chance, and 12.5% free crit from the passive. For 375 gold. I think other things are just as efficient by themselves, eg. wriggles and brutalizer give you some nicer free passives.
I think IE is much better when you get a lot of crit from other sources though (like zeal/phantom dancer)
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On March 21 2012 03:16 TheKefka wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 03:14 Tooplark wrote:
Problem with LoL itemization:
Fully completed items are too effective. On a ranged DPS, if you have 2 dblades and 2 of brutalizer, wriggles, exe calling, or any other ~1.5k gold item, you are straight up behind the enemy ranged DPS with IE. Even if you abuse the early advantage and get another 1-1.5k gold than him, you're still behind.
It doesn't matter what non-IE combination of items you buy. As soon as your enemy finishes his IE, you're behind, unless you managed to delay his build so much that you finish it at roughly the same time.
It's not just ranged DPS either. Ranged DPS is just easier since Infinity Edge is the best item in the game from every possible perspective. On APs, Haunting Guise+NLR basically has to delay the enemy from rushing their DCap by almost 2k gold.
This is less true on tanks, where itemization is far more reactive and something like Atmogs really actually does have a hideously large abusable period, where rushing either item individually isn't near as big of a boost as comparable early game items.
Of course, this might be dismissible as IE being ridiculously overpowered, since it's not nearly as clear-cut with BC or BT, but I think it's a serious actual real problem. shhh,I love when the other ad goes back and buys a BF and a zeal.Or a wriggles.Moar free wins for me k tnx.
I've never seen a successful ad carry player not getting a couple dorans or a wriggles or even both before IE.
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Watching Hotshot playing 1600 elo rightnow. He took his lost too srsly. Raged on his team mate lol.
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On March 21 2012 03:24 clickrush wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 03:16 TheKefka wrote:On March 21 2012 03:14 Tooplark wrote:
Problem with LoL itemization:
Fully completed items are too effective. On a ranged DPS, if you have 2 dblades and 2 of brutalizer, wriggles, exe calling, or any other ~1.5k gold item, you are straight up behind the enemy ranged DPS with IE. Even if you abuse the early advantage and get another 1-1.5k gold than him, you're still behind.
It doesn't matter what non-IE combination of items you buy. As soon as your enemy finishes his IE, you're behind, unless you managed to delay his build so much that you finish it at roughly the same time.
It's not just ranged DPS either. Ranged DPS is just easier since Infinity Edge is the best item in the game from every possible perspective. On APs, Haunting Guise+NLR basically has to delay the enemy from rushing their DCap by almost 2k gold.
This is less true on tanks, where itemization is far more reactive and something like Atmogs really actually does have a hideously large abusable period, where rushing either item individually isn't near as big of a boost as comparable early game items.
Of course, this might be dismissible as IE being ridiculously overpowered, since it's not nearly as clear-cut with BC or BT, but I think it's a serious actual real problem. shhh,I love when the other ad goes back and buys a BF and a zeal.Or a wriggles.Moar free wins for me k tnx. I've never seen a successful ad carry player not getting a couple dorans or a wriggles or even both before IE.
Same, I've seen the triple dorans -> wriggles -> pd though.
some tourney made that popular for a while.. kiev? i think
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TSM facing some interesting lanes (urgot mid, taric blitz bot)
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On March 21 2012 03:24 clickrush wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 03:16 TheKefka wrote:On March 21 2012 03:14 Tooplark wrote:
Problem with LoL itemization:
Fully completed items are too effective. On a ranged DPS, if you have 2 dblades and 2 of brutalizer, wriggles, exe calling, or any other ~1.5k gold item, you are straight up behind the enemy ranged DPS with IE. Even if you abuse the early advantage and get another 1-1.5k gold than him, you're still behind.
It doesn't matter what non-IE combination of items you buy. As soon as your enemy finishes his IE, you're behind, unless you managed to delay his build so much that you finish it at roughly the same time.
It's not just ranged DPS either. Ranged DPS is just easier since Infinity Edge is the best item in the game from every possible perspective. On APs, Haunting Guise+NLR basically has to delay the enemy from rushing their DCap by almost 2k gold.
This is less true on tanks, where itemization is far more reactive and something like Atmogs really actually does have a hideously large abusable period, where rushing either item individually isn't near as big of a boost as comparable early game items.
Of course, this might be dismissible as IE being ridiculously overpowered, since it's not nearly as clear-cut with BC or BT, but I think it's a serious actual real problem. shhh,I love when the other ad goes back and buys a BF and a zeal.Or a wriggles.Moar free wins for me k tnx. I've never seen a successful ad carry player not getting a couple dorans or a wriggles or even both before IE.
Obviously you get 1-2 dorans before IE.But wriggles is like the item that you get when you are behind and just want to farm.If you buy a wriggles and something against a dude that buys IE you just surrender your lane imo.
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United States37500 Posts
On March 21 2012 03:27 nojitosunrise wrote:
TSM facing some interesting lanes (urgot mid, taric blitz bot)
Too busy watching top.
Dyrus continues to improve.
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On March 21 2012 03:30 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 03:27 nojitosunrise wrote:
TSM facing some interesting lanes (urgot mid, taric blitz bot) Too busy watching top. Dyrus continues to improve.
his vlad very scary
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On March 21 2012 03:30 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 03:27 nojitosunrise wrote:
TSM facing some interesting lanes (urgot mid, taric blitz bot) Too busy watching top. Dyrus continues to improve.
Anybody with a methodolical approach like him atm would get so good. I don't get why Reginald doesn't even try.
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You can't compare 2 Doran's + 3k gold in early/midgame items to 2 Doran's + 3.8k gold for IE though.
I'm pretty sure that 2 Doran's + Bruta + Wriggle's beats straight IE.
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On March 21 2012 03:27 TheKefka wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 03:24 clickrush wrote:On March 21 2012 03:16 TheKefka wrote:On March 21 2012 03:14 Tooplark wrote:
Problem with LoL itemization:
Fully completed items are too effective. On a ranged DPS, if you have 2 dblades and 2 of brutalizer, wriggles, exe calling, or any other ~1.5k gold item, you are straight up behind the enemy ranged DPS with IE. Even if you abuse the early advantage and get another 1-1.5k gold than him, you're still behind.
It doesn't matter what non-IE combination of items you buy. As soon as your enemy finishes his IE, you're behind, unless you managed to delay his build so much that you finish it at roughly the same time.
It's not just ranged DPS either. Ranged DPS is just easier since Infinity Edge is the best item in the game from every possible perspective. On APs, Haunting Guise+NLR basically has to delay the enemy from rushing their DCap by almost 2k gold.
This is less true on tanks, where itemization is far more reactive and something like Atmogs really actually does have a hideously large abusable period, where rushing either item individually isn't near as big of a boost as comparable early game items.
Of course, this might be dismissible as IE being ridiculously overpowered, since it's not nearly as clear-cut with BC or BT, but I think it's a serious actual real problem. shhh,I love when the other ad goes back and buys a BF and a zeal.Or a wriggles.Moar free wins for me k tnx. I've never seen a successful ad carry player not getting a couple dorans or a wriggles or even both before IE. Obviously you get 1-2 dorans before IE.But wriggles is like the item that you get when you are behind and just want to farm.If you buy a wriggles and something against a dude that buys IE you just surrender your lane imo.
wriggles is the item that allows you to trade during early engagements and get faster dragons, thats why you get it on aggressive AD carries like MF. If you 'just want to farm' then obv. you don't get wriggles except if you want to shrug off harassment and your support does not provide enough sustain. wriggles and BF sword cost about the same, the guy with wriggles will allways win trades and have more sustain during passive phases, so the BF sword guy is forced to play passive and keep up with the farm as well as possible.
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On March 21 2012 03:27 TheKefka wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 03:24 clickrush wrote:On March 21 2012 03:16 TheKefka wrote:On March 21 2012 03:14 Tooplark wrote:
Problem with LoL itemization:
Fully completed items are too effective. On a ranged DPS, if you have 2 dblades and 2 of brutalizer, wriggles, exe calling, or any other ~1.5k gold item, you are straight up behind the enemy ranged DPS with IE. Even if you abuse the early advantage and get another 1-1.5k gold than him, you're still behind.
It doesn't matter what non-IE combination of items you buy. As soon as your enemy finishes his IE, you're behind, unless you managed to delay his build so much that you finish it at roughly the same time.
It's not just ranged DPS either. Ranged DPS is just easier since Infinity Edge is the best item in the game from every possible perspective. On APs, Haunting Guise+NLR basically has to delay the enemy from rushing their DCap by almost 2k gold.
This is less true on tanks, where itemization is far more reactive and something like Atmogs really actually does have a hideously large abusable period, where rushing either item individually isn't near as big of a boost as comparable early game items.
Of course, this might be dismissible as IE being ridiculously overpowered, since it's not nearly as clear-cut with BC or BT, but I think it's a serious actual real problem. shhh,I love when the other ad goes back and buys a BF and a zeal.Or a wriggles.Moar free wins for me k tnx. I've never seen a successful ad carry player not getting a couple dorans or a wriggles or even both before IE. Obviously you get 1-2 dorans before IE.But wriggles is like the item that you get when you are behind and just want to farm.If you buy a wriggles and something against a dude that buys IE you just surrender your lane imo.
No one buys Wriggle's because they just want to farm. They buy it if their team wants to take objectives like dragon or try and steal enemy buffs. They buy it because early game it's really fucking strong. 2 dblade + vamp scepter or 3 dblade is what you go if you want to just farm up to an IE.
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Just watched that SV daily, pretty good, but I think he was hard on Kev1n for the double kill top. Mabye I read it wrong because I don't play top, but he didn't know Mundo was there and he did know Lee Sin was there, I think that 'greedy cs' that SV kept going on about was an attempted bait, not sure tho.
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United States47024 Posts
Perhaps Moonbear or someone else could shed light on this, but I don't see the reasoning behind bigger items being more cost-effective than (or hell, even comparably cost-effective to) their smaller, early game counterparts. "Slots taken" is in essence a resource in and of itself, and it seems silly to me that higher slot-efficiency shouldn't come with a tradeoff in gold efficiency.
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well, it would be pretty lame if everyone just stacked Chain Vests and BF Swords and Giant's Belts and then started finished items once they ran out of item slots.
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United States47024 Posts
On March 21 2012 03:57 Mogwai wrote:
well, it would be pretty lame if everyone just stacked Chain Vests and BF Swords and Giant's Belts and then started finished items once they ran out of item slots.
I didn't mean just in terms of recipe items. In fact, it's less relevant to combined items because there are lots of cheaper combined items that actually can compete on overall utility to more expensive counterparts (Aegis, Shurelya's, etc.).
But, for example, why is Chain Vest more gold-efficient than Cloth Armor? Why is BF Sword more gold-efficient than Pickaxe or Long Sword?
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On March 21 2012 03:11 Frolossus wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 02:15 57 Corvette wrote:
I am kinda worried about Swain's viability being cut down because of this bluebuff nerf. He is a good toplane counterpick for me, but with even less mana regen from bluebuff its going to be hard to keep that ult up for the entire teamfight... personally i never struggle with mana on swain and feel comfortable donating blue to our mid when i go solo top. between catalyst and last hitting minions you can generally have plenty of mana
His mana problems were never in lane, its when you are in the middle of a 20-30 second long teamfight and you run oom after 10 seconds because of your ulti.
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On March 21 2012 03:54 TheYango wrote:
Perhaps Moonbear or someone else could shed light on this, but I don't see the reasoning behind bigger items being more cost-effective than (or hell, even comparably cost-effective to) their smaller, early game counterparts. "Slots taken" is in essence a resource in and of itself, and it seems silly to me that higher slot-efficiency shouldn't come with a tradeoff in gold efficiency.
i think the reasoning is that the bigger items also have bigger pieces and often you will go back to base and not be able to buy your bf or nlr or buy it then be left with 800g and not be able to buy the next piece where someone who is buys smaller items can turn their gold into stats more completely. you trade more awkward build ups for more cost and slot efficient items, or the reasoning is just bigger=better herp derp.
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I would imagine it has to do with trying to use resource space as a competition among bigger items themselves than smaller ones vs bigger ones.
As is, the debate you have is trying to figure out which of the really awesome items you want to finish FIRST. Then the next one, and so on.
If all the little items are really efficient, it feels kinda shitty to spend gold after getting to 6 items. I mean, look at smash discussing FM or Sunfire cape. Imagine if EVERY item you had to go through that sort of "hell is it even worth it." It would basically become just mathcraft to figure out which one sucked the least, which isnt fun.
The way we have it now, its "which one is the most awesome," which makes more sense from an enjoyment and a flow standpoint.
As for the cloth->chain vest: I feel as though it is the game trying to set up incentives and rewards for saving up as much gold as possible. For example, you dont feel happy coming home with 500 gold and being able to only buy a cloth armor if you are laning against a wukong. But if you can survive long enough to get to 800 gold and can get a chain vest, the reward for being able to do that is much greater and you feel more awesome for being able to actually play out your skill and be rewarded for it.
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EPT
