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Remember guys, this is the general discussion thread. Keep whine/QQ posts in the appropriate QQ memorial thread! Thanks! |
On March 21 2012 04:23 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 04:21 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On March 21 2012 03:54 TheYango wrote:
Perhaps Moonbear or someone else could shed light on this, but I don't see the reasoning behind bigger items being more cost-effective than (or hell, even comparably cost-effective to) their smaller, early game counterparts. "Slots taken" is in essence a resource in and of itself, and it seems silly to me that higher slot-efficiency shouldn't come with a tradeoff in gold efficiency. Slot efficiency is, in my view, less of an issue in LoL than DotA. At the top level, games tend to be decided relatively early, when people have at most 2 big items finished with a few doran items/boots added in, with advantages gained in teamfights during that stage just rippling out to effectively end the game right there. So there's really no "incentive" to build bigger items if they didn't come with increased gold efficiency, since slot efficiency is rarely a limiting factor, at least compared to DotA. This all comes with lack of buyback and the comparatively smaller map where one-two midgame fights really does decide the game in so many cases. That's the exact problem that I feel more cost-efficient mid-tier items would address. It's not the only way to address it, but it has comparatively few negative tradeoffs with regard to creating bad gameplay in other aspects of the game.
I dont think this is a problem though. We saw TSM whine their asses off about snowballing post Kiev, then we went into the Kings of Europe and saw a ton of good comebacks. Even Hannover wasnt about snowballing- it was about good teams beating on bad ones.
One of the biggest things atm is that people STILL suck at lol. You see so much bad play, even at a competitve level, not to mention the fact that people STILL arent sure how to properly evaluate objectives.
Look at CLG: SV goes out in his daily and basically says Dragon is worthless- and they proved that in their game vs aAa.
Also, I think your itemization idea would make the problem WORSE. If you want to minimzie the amount of an effect a gold lead has, why would you make it so that it costs LESS for people to take advantage of an advantage. You should be trying to make good items harder to get, not easier.
As is you need to hit 3k+ to get an IE. Imagine if there was a midgame item that did 75% of IE for 50% of the cost. Then you start combining that with other cheap but good alternatives. Games would be over as soon as someone got to 1500 gold, not 3000.
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On March 21 2012 04:23 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 04:21 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On March 21 2012 03:54 TheYango wrote:
Perhaps Moonbear or someone else could shed light on this, but I don't see the reasoning behind bigger items being more cost-effective than (or hell, even comparably cost-effective to) their smaller, early game counterparts. "Slots taken" is in essence a resource in and of itself, and it seems silly to me that higher slot-efficiency shouldn't come with a tradeoff in gold efficiency. Slot efficiency is, in my view, less of an issue in LoL than DotA. At the top level, games tend to be decided relatively early, when people have at most 2 big items finished with a few doran items/boots added in, with advantages gained in teamfights during that stage just rippling out to effectively end the game right there. So there's really no "incentive" to build bigger items if they didn't come with increased gold efficiency, since slot efficiency is rarely a limiting factor, at least compared to DotA. This all comes with lack of buyback and the comparatively smaller map where one-two midgame fights really does decide the game in so many cases. That's the exact problem that I feel more cost-efficient basic and mid-tier items would address. It's not the only way to address it, and it might not have that big of an effect, but it has comparatively few negative tradeoffs with regard to creating bad gameplay in other aspects of the game. Like, I don't see what's BAD about making those mid-tier items that nobody buys more cost-effective, and allowing them to be leveraged as a means for a team that's behind to exploit timings. As an aside, it would make support itemization a little less awkward if buying baseline resist/HP items were more cost-effective and didn't feel as shitty.
I agree with this premise, but think its implementation would be difficult to implement, and even harder to execute on a team level.
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On March 21 2012 04:21 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 04:18 TheYango wrote:On March 21 2012 04:13 Two_DoWn wrote:
How much would it suck to be 5-1 and barely stronger than someone who is 1-5?
It's the equivalent to timing play in Starcraft. The guy who loses 1 fight doesn't slowly get closed out of the game. He has the opportunity to execute an all-in or timing attack when the opponent tries to leverage his army advantage to try and expand or tech. More cost-efficient small/mid-tier items is the equivalent--you allow the opportunity for a team that's behind to go all-in on gold-efficient, but slot-inefficient items and, with proper execution and timing sense, play their way back into the game. Best way I can put it: Do you think the snowball meta exists? If no, you are trying to fix something that isnt broken. If yes, this isnt an itemization question.
Not specifically referring to your post, but what I really hate about LoL is how annoying it is to finish up a won game, for both sides. I wouldn't mind a teamfight deciding a game early if the fucking game just ended in the next 5 minutes, not take another 20 minutes to leverage the 1000 gold advantage into a 10000 gold advantage through relatively SAFE plays no less. Mistakes do happen, but when they don't, it's boring as hell.
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Shaco
Fixed a bug that caused Deceive to sometimes deal more damage than intended
Two-Shiv Poison damage adjusted to 50/90/130/170/210 (+1.0 bonus attack damage) from 40/80/120/160/200 (+0.5 total attack damage)
Wait... Didn't they say they were going to nerf shacos early game?
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United States47024 Posts
On March 21 2012 04:31 Two_DoWn wrote:
As is you need to hit 3k+ to get an IE. Imagine if there was a midgame item that did 75% of IE for 50% of the cost. Then you start combining that with other cheap but good alternatives. Games would be over as soon as someone got to 1500 gold, not 3000.
Not true, because if you're buying items that have poor slot-efficiency, then the cost of that is you cap out for a long time once you get 6 items. You get a big rise in power up till you have 6 items, and then you flatline for ~3k gold until you save the gold to sell an item and buy a more expensive one.
If a team that's ahead tries to close out an advantage with mid-tier items, it means the burden is on them to actually end the game before they cap out on items, because their power will flatline for a long time after that. The team that's behind needs to play defensive and farm till that team caps out on 1500-2k gold items (which happens pretty fast if you're only buying items in those gold ranges), and then when the other team's power level flatlines, they have a chance to pick an even fight at the right timing, when they've just finished their 6 mid-tier items, but the enemy team hasn't saved the 3k to replace their mid-tier items with bigger items yet.
The point is that you can create tradeoffs between slot-efficiency and cost-efficiency, and I see absolutely zero DOWNSIDE to creating this kind of tradeoff. You don't LOSE gameplay and itemization options this way, provided you scale the gold cost vs. slot cost tradeoff carefully. You only create new tradeoffs and options if you implement this correctly.
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On March 21 2012 04:31 Alaric wrote:
Isn't that because he likes tears?
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW
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On March 21 2012 04:36 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 04:31 Two_DoWn wrote:
As is you need to hit 3k+ to get an IE. Imagine if there was a midgame item that did 75% of IE for 50% of the cost. Then you start combining that with other cheap but good alternatives. Games would be over as soon as someone got to 1500 gold, not 3000. Not true, because if you're buying items that have poor slot-efficiency, then the cost of that is you cap out for a long time once you get 6 items. You get a big rise in power up till you have 6 items, and then you flatline for ~3k gold until you save the gold to sell an item and buy a more expensive one. If a team that's ahead tries to close out an advantage with mid-tier items, it means the burden is on them to actually end the game before they cap out on items, because their power will flatline for a long time after that. The team that's behind needs to play defensive and farm till that team caps out on 1500-2k gold items (which happens pretty fast if you're only buying items in those gold ranges), and then when the other team's power level flatlines, they have a chance to pick an even fight at the right timing, when they've just finished their 6 mid-tier items, but the enemy team hasn't saved the 3k to replace their mid-tier items with bigger items yet.
I can understand why this might work in Dota, but I dont think it would work in lol.
The map is too small. If you give a team 6 mid tier items that are highly effective and the other team with like 2, you are looking at all of your outer towers dead and baron gone before 25 minutes. Its much easier to force shit in lol because of how small the travel distance is.
Think about this though, you actually create MORE openings by having good big items: for example- a team has the option to stall up the time so an ad can catch up an IE, then a PD, then a LW.
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On March 21 2012 04:35 ibreakurface wrote:Show nested quote +Shaco
Fixed a bug that caused Deceive to sometimes deal more damage than intended
Two-Shiv Poison damage adjusted to 50/90/130/170/210 (+1.0 bonus attack damage) from 40/80/120/160/200 (+0.5 total attack damage) Wait... Didn't they say they were going to nerf shacos early game?
...this IS nerf to his early game. Shaco has ~55 ad at level one so he gets 27 damage from the old scaling just off base damage. So even if he starts with 20 bonus ad two-shiv will still do less damage before he gets items (with 20 bonus ad one point in two shiv used to do ~77 damage, now it will do 70 - and the difference is bigger if he wants to start with something other than a dblade or longsword). Its not a big nerf to his early game but it is a nerf.
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Watching TSM vs random 1k6 team : second death by Reginald already :p
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On March 21 2012 04:46 mr_tolkien wrote:
Watching TSM vs random 1k6 team : second death by Reginald already :p
Dyrus 2v1 against ashe/soraka botlane
Making this game look easy
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Reginald : I shouldve just ran away
Dyrus: Ya that sounds pretty good
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Reginald gets chased by a morgana,ashe,ww,soraka.
Kites them through the bot lane,kills morgana,kills ww under the tower with 20 hp,start screaming IM SOO GOOD DUDE IM SOO GOOD and gets ashe ulted in the face.priceless hahah
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Dudes: neo hath spoken: use ye olde lol stream and scrims and randome bouts threade.
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On March 21 2012 04:24 Slusher wrote:
Somewhere Ryze is crying
On March 21 2012 04:31 Alaric wrote:
Isn't that because he likes tears?
Well played.
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On March 21 2012 04:35 ibreakurface wrote:Show nested quote +Shaco
Fixed a bug that caused Deceive to sometimes deal more damage than intended
Two-Shiv Poison damage adjusted to 50/90/130/170/210 (+1.0 bonus attack damage) from 40/80/120/160/200 (+0.5 total attack damage) Wait... Didn't they say they were going to nerf shacos early game?
it is a nerf.
With no ad items/runes, assuming max two-shiv build
pre-patch:
lvl 1 two-shiv did 40+28 = 68 dmg
lvl 5 two-shiv did 120+35 = 155 dmg
lvl 18 two-shiv did 200+57 = 257 dmg
post-patch
lvl 1 two-shiv does 50 dmg
lvl 5 two-shiv does 130 dmg
lvl 18 two-shiv does 210 dmg
It's a nerf until you buy ad items. You need +36 AD to break even at lvl 1, which is more than a long sword. You're not going to realistically get much AD until you complete Wriggles, and that's not until like ~lvl 5 and even then pre-patch does slightly more damage.
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On March 21 2012 04:48 nojitosunrise wrote:
Reginald : I shouldve just ran away
Dyrus: Ya that sounds pretty good
To be honest, Ive always thought Rainman and Reginald have been TSM's weakest links. TRM is almost always suprisingly consistent, but then fails in matches that matter. His raging attitude never helped.
Reginald is just such a volatile player. No consistency, sometimes he plays so well and makes great callls, others, he completely goes bonkers, and while he's may not rage as much as rainman, his huge ego doesnt help.
Chaox and Xspecial have always been a great pair, and oddone plays well for the support style he prefers in jungle.
I really feel like if Regi buckles down, TSM going to be real terror. Dyrus so motivated, and playing so well.
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On March 21 2012 04:52 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 04:35 ibreakurface wrote:Shaco
Fixed a bug that caused Deceive to sometimes deal more damage than intended
Two-Shiv Poison damage adjusted to 50/90/130/170/210 (+1.0 bonus attack damage) from 40/80/120/160/200 (+0.5 total attack damage) Wait... Didn't they say they were going to nerf shacos early game? it is a nerf. With no ad items/runes, assuming max two-shiv build pre-patch: lvl 1 two-shiv did 40+28 = 68 dmg lvl 5 two-shiv did 120+35 = 155 dmg lvl 18 two-shiv did 200+57 = 257 dmg post-patch lvl 1 two-shiv does 50 dmg lvl 5 two-shiv does 130 dmg lvl 18 two-shiv does 210 dmg It's a nerf until you buy ad items. You need +18 AD to break even at lvl 1, which is more than a long sword. You're not going to realistically get much AD until you complete Wriggles, and that's not until like ~lvl 5 and even then pre-patch does slightly more damage.
You need 36 AD to break even with old damage at level one not 18.
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On March 21 2012 04:50 Two_DoWn wrote:
Dudes: neo hath spoken: use ye olde lol stream and scrims and randome bouts threade.
But now I want to speak about the viability of Olaf after having seen him hold his lane 1v2 very well and then be a huge asset to his team later in the game thanks to true damage...
Which isn't related to stream discussion T3T
I really feel like his lack of gap closer isn't a problem at all in lane and once teamfights start if you have a single strong engage in your team it's enough for you to wreck havock.
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On March 21 2012 04:53 Ziken wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 04:48 nojitosunrise wrote:
Reginald : I shouldve just ran away
Dyrus: Ya that sounds pretty good To be honest, Ive always thought Rainman and Reginald have been TSM's weakest links. TRM is almost always suprisingly consistent, but then fails in matches that matter. His raging attitude never helped. Reginald is just such a volatile player. No consistency, sometimes he plays so well and makes great callls, others, he completely goes bonkers, and while he's may not rage as much as rainman, his huge ego doesnt help. Chaox and Xspecial have always been a great pair, and oddone plays well for the support style he prefers in jungle. I really feel like if Regi buckles down, TSM going to be real terror. Dyrus so motivated, and playing so well.
TRM almost never plays exceptionally. He's just a solid player, but he makes some really really questionable decisions (ie. picking Irelia omg). Reginald is a wild card in every sense of the word. At times he plays like the best AP player in the world, but other times he plays like a 1.6k solo queuer. Chaox and Xpecial have their derp moments but for the most pat they're the most consistent and strongest part of TSM. TOO is a great support-style jungler, but unfortunately for him support-style junglers are falling out of fashion after the jungle remake and simply usually aren't as strong as the more carry-oriented style SV likes to play.
On March 21 2012 04:54 Treadmill wrote:
You need 36 AD to break even with old damage at level one not 18.
Oh yea, oops. Forgot to account for old scaling. Fixing it now.
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On March 21 2012 04:55 mr_tolkien wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 04:50 Two_DoWn wrote:
Dudes: neo hath spoken: use ye olde lol stream and scrims and randome bouts threade. But now I want to speak about the viability of Olaf after having seen him old his lane 1v2 very well and then be a huge asset to his team later in the game thanks to true damage... Which isn't related to stream discussion T3T
While I am not neo, Im fairly sure he would say something along the lines of:
If it is something that can actually be broken down in terms of olaf's effectiveness in the current meta, it should be in the olaf thread or this one.
If its "hey look how cool dyrus is for holding a lane 1v2 in this game with olaf" probably should go in ye olde lol stream and scrims and randome bouts threade.
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EPT
