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While this thread is labeled "DotA2", this is in fact a community thread first. Many of the users in the TL LoL subforum have been playing as friends for over a year now, so it makes logical sense that they would want to play other games together.
Do not compare DotA2 to LoL, you will get banned.
TL LoL veterans know what is expected. Newcomers be warned.
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United States47024 Posts
On March 03 2012 14:28 gtrsrs wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2012 14:22 rob.au wrote:
The game isn't optimized for lower end pc's yet so it doesn't run too well on them. There's also noticeable turn speeds in dota2, at least compared to LoL so it feels a bit less smooth because of them. yeah, i remember heroes like jakiro and lich had extreme turning speeds which is something i disliked, but i don't remember most of the heroes that i frequently played (storm, seeker, spirit breaker) having huge turning times so i chalked up the sluggishness to my computer. good to hear that it just hasn't been optimized, hopefully it will run a bit better when it's fully released!
I mentioned on the first page that they just added the render quality option--should play around with that setting a bit, as it helps a lot on lower end machines.
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On March 03 2012 14:29 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2012 14:28 gtrsrs wrote:On March 03 2012 14:22 rob.au wrote:
The game isn't optimized for lower end pc's yet so it doesn't run too well on them. There's also noticeable turn speeds in dota2, at least compared to LoL so it feels a bit less smooth because of them. yeah, i remember heroes like jakiro and lich had extreme turning speeds which is something i disliked, but i don't remember most of the heroes that i frequently played (storm, seeker, spirit breaker) having huge turning times so i chalked up the sluggishness to my computer. good to hear that it just hasn't been optimized, hopefully it will run a bit better when it's fully released! I mentioned on the first page that they just added the render quality option--should play around with that setting a bit, as it helps a lot on lower end machines.
yes, sorry i haven't replied to that. thanks for the tips and the guide on fat storm-man too ^_^. i haven't had a chance to boot up dota2 since posing my question but i'll let you know if it fixed my graphical sluggishness next time i'm on
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@everyone: I think I'm keeping up with invites into the steam group, keep up accepting and bugging dna/me please if you're not in there yet. =)
Okay, so what I always wanted to ask because I just don't understand it:
What's the purpose of jungling in DotA and why doesn't it matter if you have one? My understanding from jungling in LoL says
a) Buffcontrol.
b) There's farm there, if someone takes it that means more farm for everyone total.
a) Is obviously a weaker point but I'm guessing junglers in DotA still add to runecontrol.
is b) weaker because you can stack camps and let "real" carries clear them?
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United States47024 Posts
The role of the jungler varies vastly based on which jungler your team has. There's much larger variation in the playstyle and the function of the jungler in DotA than in LoL. There are junglers that gank and just use the jungle as a stopping point to gain some levels (Furion). There are pushers that pick up minions in the jungle (Enchantress, Chen). There are initiators/semicarries that can farm more safely in the jungle than they would in lane (Enigma, Axe). And there are carries that just jungle so fucking fast that there's no point to have them in lane when they'll be 1-2 levels above the lanes if they have a smooth jungle (Lycanthrope).
There is more gold in the jungle in DotA, but junglers are generally limited by their ability to clear the jungle. Because creeps respawn every minute, rather than on a cooldown after a camp is cleared, the rate at which gold restocks in the jungle is extremely fast. Most junglers follow a progression in their jungling ability (starting with the small camp, and working up through the harder camps over the course of the early game), and even the fastest junglers like Lycanthrope have trouble clearing absolutely everything in the course of a single minute.
As for why it's not necessary to have a jungler, creep stacking/pulling allow lanes to make use of the jungle farm without a jungler being there. Every camp in the game can be stacked, and most of the creep camps can be pulled, causing the lane creeps to aggro to the camp (which both helps you clear the camp, as well as denying some of your lane creeps). Generally, the medium camp nearest to the short lane will be used for pulling (whether or not you have a jungler), the next further camp can be double-pulled to, and mid can farm the small camp, which really only leaves 1-2 camps on either side that the lanes can't make use of without a jungler.
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another thing to consider with junglers is because of denying, a lane can be completely frozen, so 1v2's and 2v3's become a lot more difficult than in lol due to not only this outnumbering issue, but also the fact that you lose gold on deaths, that the lanes are longer, and that it's much easier to dive towers much earlier on making the decision of having a jungler very much a risk/reward kind of situation, where if your jungler doesn't provide enough benefit, one of your lanes can be completely shut down.
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United States47024 Posts
On March 03 2012 16:19 barbsq wrote:
another thing to consider with junglers is because of denying, a lane can be completely frozen, so 1v2's and 2v3's become a lot more difficult than in lol due to not only this outnumbering issue, but also the fact that you lose gold on deaths, that the lanes are longer, and that it's much easier to dive towers much earlier on making the decision of having a jungler very much a risk/reward kind of situation, where if your jungler doesn't provide enough benefit, one of your lanes can be completely shut down.
This is not actually that big of a deal in a competitive setting---there are quite a few heroes that have kits that are specifically very good for sneaking XP and some lasthits in a 1v2, 2v3, or even a 1v3 lane.
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On March 03 2012 16:07 TheYango wrote:
The role of the jungler varies vastly based on which jungler your team has. There's much larger variation in the playstyle and the function of the jungler in DotA than in LoL. There are junglers that gank and just use the jungle as a stopping point to gain some levels (Furion). There are pushers that pick up minions in the jungle (Enchantress, Chen). There are initiators/semicarries that can farm more safely in the jungle than they would in lane (Enigma, Axe). And there are carries that just jungle so fucking fast that there's no point to have them in lane when they'll be 1-2 levels above the lanes if they have a smooth jungle (Lycanthrope).
There is more gold in the jungle in DotA, but junglers are generally limited by their ability to clear the jungle. Because creeps respawn every minute, rather than on a cooldown after a camp is cleared, the rate at which gold restocks in the jungle is extremely fast. Most junglers follow a progression in their jungling ability (starting with the small camp, and working up through the harder camps over the course of the early game), and even the fastest junglers like Lycanthrope have trouble clearing absolutely everything in the course of a single minute.
As for why it's not necessary to have a jungler, creep stacking/pulling allow lanes to make use of the jungle farm without a jungler being there. Every camp in the game can be stacked, and most of the creep camps can be pulled, causing the lane creeps to aggro to the camp (which both helps you clear the camp, as well as denying some of your lane creeps). Generally, the medium camp nearest to the short lane will be used for pulling (whether or not you have a jungler), the next further camp can be double-pulled to, and mid can farm the small camp, which really only leaves 1-2 camps on either side that the lanes can't make use of without a jungler.
I was typing a reply and thought you may have chimed in with some of your usual thorough analysis, good instincts on my part.
I only want to add that the jungle can also be denied in DotA through ward placement, and if your team is not prepared to fight a counterwarding war(maybe you'd lose a skirmish placing them/killing the ward, or something else) then your jungler would just be seriously disadvantaged and useless. There's also far more early game action/ganking in DotA, so if your jungler is one of the farming variety(and can't hold his own early game like Lycan can) then he is in a very vulnerable position.
For pubs(until a fairly high MMR) there are a lot of very viable/useful junglers, but in competition the number seriously dwindles because you have to worry about the trade off of lane effectiveness(can you battle a trilane while having someone dedicated to jungle? can your jungler turn your 2v1 lane into a trilane itself? things like that). That's why you generally only see Chen/Ench/Enigma/Furion jungle in DotA2, with a few extra waiting to be added from the DotA1 pool.
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what are the standard lane setups? is it usually 1/1/3 slash 1/1/2/jungle?
how do supports get gold in this game?
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On March 03 2012 17:14 UniversalSnip wrote:
what are the standard lane setups? is it usually 1/1/3 slash 1/1/2/jungle?
how do supports get gold in this game?
2-1-2 is by far the most common in pubs, you'll see the occasional tri-lane or jungler though.
Supports get gold by ganking, creep pulls, and global tower gold(some will get none at all though, or close to none).
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On March 03 2012 17:16 red_ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2012 17:14 UniversalSnip wrote:
what are the standard lane setups? is it usually 1/1/3 slash 1/1/2/jungle?
how do supports get gold in this game? 2-1-2 is by far the most common in pubs, you'll see the occasional tri-lane or jungler though. Supports get gold by ganking, creep pulls, and global tower gold(some will get none at all though, or close to none).
so two supports is normal?
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United States47024 Posts
On March 03 2012 17:16 red_ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2012 17:14 UniversalSnip wrote:
what are the standard lane setups? is it usually 1/1/3 slash 1/1/2/jungle?
how do supports get gold in this game? 2-1-2 is by far the most common in pubs, you'll see the occasional tri-lane or jungler though. Supports get gold by ganking, creep pulls, and global tower gold(some will get none at all though, or close to none).
2-1-2 is arguably the most common in competitive play as well.
Many supports with AoE nukes can also clear jungle camps without pulling once they get to level 6 or 7. Most of the jungle camps are worth comparatively more XP than gold (compared to lane creeps), so when your carries are farming lanes, it can be a good way to build up some levels. Supports will also assist in AoE clearing pushes sometimes, and may even get to farm in certain situations where they're close to key items (e.g. Earthshaker getting close to Blink Dagger).
On March 03 2012 17:19 UniversalSnip wrote:
so two supports is normal?
Yes. There can be more, but at that point the line between "support" and supportive gankers/semicarries starts to get blurry.
Having only one support is fairly uncommon because it puts a lot of gold demand on them, and makes it hard for all the carries to get as fed as they need to. "1-protects-4" is a strategy in and of itself that requires some pretty careful picks to suit it (Bounty Hunter fits it well, because Track is a good way to get people fed through bonus assist gold).
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On March 03 2012 17:19 UniversalSnip wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2012 17:16 red_ wrote:On March 03 2012 17:14 UniversalSnip wrote:
what are the standard lane setups? is it usually 1/1/3 slash 1/1/2/jungle?
how do supports get gold in this game? 2-1-2 is by far the most common in pubs, you'll see the occasional tri-lane or jungler though. Supports get gold by ganking, creep pulls, and global tower gold(some will get none at all though, or close to none). so two supports is normal?
Well, in pub's people don't want to support for various reasons so I wouldn't consider two supports normal there. In theory a 2-1-2 lineup it's generally best to have two supports though. It's not that uncommon to have a jungler in pubs, they are good as well. Tri-lanes pretty rare, since they need two supports for it to be effective and then have to play it out correctly after the first 2 minutes. Normally a pub tri-lane gets first blood then fails at roaming etc... resulting in a loss.
Also have to keep in mind there's no dragon but there are long/short lanes, so there wont always be two people bot lane.
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United States47024 Posts
In pubs I find people are good about picking 2 supports.
The problem is that they end up not playing the supports as supports--don't buy chicken/wards/etc.
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On March 03 2012 16:07 TheYango wrote:
The role of the jungler varies vastly based on which jungler your team has. There's much larger variation in the playstyle and the function of the jungler in DotA than in LoL. There are junglers that gank and just use the jungle as a stopping point to gain some levels (Furion). There are pushers that pick up minions in the jungle (Enchantress, Chen). There are initiators/semicarries that can farm more safely in the jungle than they would in lane (Enigma, Axe). And there are carries that just jungle so fucking fast that there's no point to have them in lane when they'll be 1-2 levels above the lanes if they have a smooth jungle (Lycanthrope).
There is more gold in the jungle in DotA, but junglers are generally limited by their ability to clear the jungle. Because creeps respawn every minute, rather than on a cooldown after a camp is cleared, the rate at which gold restocks in the jungle is extremely fast. Most junglers follow a progression in their jungling ability (starting with the small camp, and working up through the harder camps over the course of the early game), and even the fastest junglers like Lycanthrope have trouble clearing absolutely everything in the course of a single minute.
As for why it's not necessary to have a jungler, creep stacking/pulling allow lanes to make use of the jungle farm without a jungler being there. Every camp in the game can be stacked, and most of the creep camps can be pulled, causing the lane creeps to aggro to the camp (which both helps you clear the camp, as well as denying some of your lane creeps). Generally, the medium camp nearest to the short lane will be used for pulling (whether or not you have a jungler), the next further camp can be double-pulled to, and mid can farm the small camp, which really only leaves 1-2 camps on either side that the lanes can't make use of without a jungler.
<3 thanks.
I'll add links to posts like this in the OP so we won't get questions like that all the time.
Currently I'm trying to find a cool youtube overview of heroes, the only thing I found is this but it's not complete at all. Anyone got a good source where you can find something similar? Linking the wiki is cool and all, but I think it helps a lot to see how stuff looks ingame.
Also, what's a good source for guides if you DON'T want to check original dota guides? I feel like such a baddy when checking dotafire.com considering how bad their stuff is for LoL.
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YES that was what I was looking for.
Tried to look for "30 second dota 2" on youtube for like 10 minutes and didn't find shit. Damn you TL, why so good. <3
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United States47024 Posts
TBH I don't really like 5-s's guides that much but they're miles better than PlayDota.com or Dotafire guides.
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yango - nothing but literally 120 paragraph guides from dendi would make you happy  you're a perfectionist and a detailist and a nerdist. you're the best! the rest of us can settle for near-perfect 
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On March 03 2012 19:05 TheYango wrote:
TBH I don't really like 5-s's guides that much but they're miles better than PlayDota.com or Dotafire guides.
The real reason you don't like the guides is because they don't suggest Jjango on every STR semi-carry/carry. ADMIT IT.
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EPT
