EPT[LiquidParty] DotA2 Learning Group ^.^ - Page 56
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While this thread is labeled "DotA2", this is in fact a community thread first. Many of the users in the TL LoL subforum have been playing as friends for over a year now, so it makes logical sense that they would want to play other games together. Do not compare DotA2 to LoL, you will get banned. TL LoL veterans know what is expected. Newcomers be warned. gl hf | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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red_
United States8474 Posts
On May 14 2014 00:36 Numy wrote: Wouldn't C9 be the TSM of Dota. Liquid would be more like a CLG or Curse TSM still 1 Euro import shy of being C9. I don't even consider C9 NA-Dota right now. EE may be the face of the team, but its 3/5's European and they are in the European division of a bunch of events(although Dreamleague did put them in the NA division but that was to have an even 4 team split). | ||
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Cixah
United States11285 Posts
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ketchup
14521 Posts
I just want to try to figure out how a team can look as dominant as Team Liquid did for most of their games yesterday, to what happened in the final game against NAR. I think the craziest part is that it can happen during the game. The batrider had blink by 8mins, but then it seemed like all of Liquid just started making the weirdest/ most suicidal decisions. It doesn't make sense to me how that switch just happens. Sure, you can attribute this to lack of practice, but a team like Liquid must have better practice/organization behind them. What is it about the NA region that causes this to occur across different games? | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
Yes, Bulba played too loose as Batrider and fed away his tempo (I would argue this was a big factor in TL losing, as Batrider was the key hero with the ability to actually develop Liquid's game plan). Against the weaker NA teams, his recklessness probably would have gone unpunished because as a whole those teams would be worse at responding to the pressure of a blink Batrider than NAR was. Hell, if all of NAR played as loose as Sneyking even with blink Bat in the game, NAR would have lost, but fortunately not all of NAR is as bad as Sneyking. | ||
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ketchup
14521 Posts
Still though I think there is a lot of inconsistent play throughout. I didn't expect that SNA would do so well against NAR today then drop a game to EHug afterwards. Maybe I am overrating some of these teams while underrating others which is what is causing me to think these results are odd. I admit I don't know enough about a few of these teams because I don't watch a lot of tournament DotA streams. | ||
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red_
United States8474 Posts
On May 14 2014 04:12 ketchup wrote: I agree that NAR played better that game. I also think that Liquid could have played better, and they showed more consistent play earlier throughout the day. That last game was so different that I was definitely confused as to why it turned out that way. Even after the Bulba started doing stupid things, Liquid still had a decent chance to even out the game if they had slowed the pace of the game down(in terms of kills/deaths). The teams are definitely more evenly matched. Still though I think there is a lot of inconsistent play throughout. I didn't expect that SNA would do so well against NAR today then drop a game to EHug afterwards. Maybe I am overrating some of these teams while underrating others which is what is causing me to think these results are odd. I admit I don't know much about most of these teams because I don't watch a lot of tournament DotA streams. One of the biggest factors IMO is the drafting. Some of these drafts in NA DotA are just confusing as hell, even from the 'good' teams, which can cause huge swings in how good they look from game to game. SNA had a solid draft against NAR(and I felt NAR's was somewhat questionable), and Sneyking had some Sneyking moments that basically cost them the game. That said there are some players on these teams that are the definition of inconsistent, like Sneyking, who actually has some great games but seems to just totally lose focus sometimes and do some of the dumbest shit you will see from a 'pro'' quality player. | ||
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Kupon3ss
時の回廊10066 Posts
Not even EG DotA (the equivalent of C9 in terms of their skill against the rest of NA) can pick a generic cookie cutter lineup every game and expect it to work 100% of the time due to the variance in drafting and laning that allows predictable styles to be hardcountered. Another factor is the way scaling and snowballing works in their respective games. Lalush had collected a set of LoL and DotA pro games to compare the overall "snowballiness" of the relative games that gets some of the point across. On May 09 2014 21:48 LaLuSh wrote: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/shg4s2m.gif) Bottom red marker represents the 5th percentile, meaning only 5% or 1in20 of a wining team's games are below that marker in terms of gold lead/deficit. The bottom whisker represents 10th to 25th percentile, which means that between red marker and beginning of whisker is where the 5th to 10th percent of teams with the lowest leads reside. And withinin the whisker the 10th to 25th percentile. Bottom red box area: 25th to 50th Top box area: 50th to 75th Top whisker: 75th to 90th Top blue cross marker: 95th The chart shows the winning team's gold lead/deficit over the losing team as a percentage. The line that goes through the boxes is the average lead. + Show Spoiler [non gif graphs] + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/b1IbER2.png) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/0mF4pq0.png) One of the key differences in game design is dynamic asymmetric scaling, in which lineups and heroes in DotA do not get stronger at a linear rate of power and CC is far stronger than AD or AP scaling spells. As a result a situation in LoL in which the advantaged team can be caught in poor situations and still often come out even or ahead simply because their "QWER" deals more front-ended damage than their opponents happen more rarely in DotA. When this is combined with the increased spread of the map and higher potentials of pickoffs due to the lack of vision in DotA and the overall propensity of strategic play that dictates farming a larger portion of the map, it leads to a far greater "ability to throw" in a DotA game in games like ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/8fJb3D7.jpg) Which ironically, was performed by the DotA Dignitoss but is very representative of the NA scene as a whole. At the end of the day I think Yango is being too hard on Bulba. A player's inconsistency and instability is not always a bad thing. Sure a more conservative Bulba might not have fed that double kill that brought SF back into the game, but a more conservative Bulba would also likely not have gone all-in to solo kill Sneyking in lane or stole the stacked camps that led to a sub 10 minute blink on an offlane Batrider. Those things are part of how individual players function as part of teams and such "playmakers" need to be balanced with more conservative "anchors" in any functioning lineup. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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Kupon3ss
時の回廊10066 Posts
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ketchup
14521 Posts
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red_
United States8474 Posts
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r.Evo
Germany14080 Posts
On May 14 2014 10:28 red_ wrote: Speaking of inconsistency, uG looks like they're about to beat Liquid, after beating NAR as well today, and yet they won't even make top4. That game was so embarrassing in so many ways. ;; | ||
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red_
United States8474 Posts
Edit: Yes tiebreakers, starting in ~15 minutes. | ||
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r.Evo
Germany14080 Posts
On May 14 2014 10:43 red_ wrote: Actually I think I saw standings before they were updated, uG is 6-4 with 2 other teams, so I think there will be tiebreakers? 3/4/5 are tied yeah. If there will be a tie after tiebreakers then... good ol' gametime will decide who moves on. =D | ||
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red_
United States8474 Posts
On May 14 2014 10:48 r.Evo wrote: 3/4/5 are tied yeah. If there will be a tie after tiebreakers then... good ol' gametime will decide who moves on. =D I mean, I kind of hate that, but at the same time these dudes have actually been playing games for like 9 hours straight with 15-20 minute breaks, I can understand both parties(tourney organizers + players) not wanting the specter of endless tiebreaker groups. Edit: Since everyone else seems to be discussing this, who here thinks TL threw that on purpose to put SNA into tiebreakers? I'm on the fence. I can see why people thought it was a throw, but it felt more to me like they just didn't care either way(their top2 was secure). I guess I just don't see them as nefarious enough(nor having a shitty relationship with Fluff/Mike) to lose on purpose, and it's more likely that they were capping their qualifier stage with a 'Clowney Ass Game' -Draskyl, every 5 minutes. | ||
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ketchup
14521 Posts
On May 14 2014 10:54 red_ wrote: I mean, I kind of hate that, but at the same time these dudes have actually been playing games for like 9 hours straight with 15-20 minute breaks, I can understand both parties(tourney organizers + players) not wanting the specter of endless tiebreaker groups. Edit: Since everyone else seems to be discussing this, who here thinks TL threw that on purpose to put SNA into tiebreakers? I'm on the fence. I can see why people thought it was a throw, but it felt more to me like they just didn't care either way(their top2 was secure). I guess I just don't see them as nefarious enough(nor having a shitty relationship with Fluff/Mike) to lose on purpose, and it's more likely that they were capping their qualifier stage with a 'Clowney Ass Game' -Draskyl, every 5 minutes. I don't think it was on purpose. We saw similar play yesterday with NAR. They get over confident, start doing stupid stuff, then before they realize it, they are losing because of the stupid shit they did. It's not really anything new with NA DotA teams I think. I also don't think they'd ruin whatever relationship they might have SNA by losing on purpose. | ||
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red_
United States8474 Posts
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ketchup
14521 Posts
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r.Evo
Germany14080 Posts
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