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While this thread is labeled "DotA2", this is in fact a community thread first. Many of the users in the TL LoL subforum have been playing as friends for over a year now, so it makes logical sense that they would want to play other games together.
Do not compare DotA2 to LoL, you will get banned.
TL LoL veterans know what is expected. Newcomers be warned.
gl hf |
Well there's like 10 ways of wining a last hit battle, even with much worse anmation and damage. The Stop-spam one is rather bad against most of the people unless you already know the habits of the opponent. It's best used when alone as it is really ease to deny somebody who does that and you leave yourself immobile. It's strongly unrecommended when heroes like pudge are missing thou.
To elaborate on the last hitting... A last hit is always worht more than a deny. Sometimes thou you can be 99% sure the enemy will deny you and then you can either try to deny other creep yourself if it's avaible or try and deny the deny(exactly) by attacking earlier so that a creep finishes of the target rather than an enemy blow. You can do the same with friendly creeps, attack earlier and deny enemy the gold from a last hit. A wise enemy will adapt quickly and an epic battle will ensue. Rotate all methods and you will succed! This applies mostly to 1v1 early game laning ofc. Those epic battles of solo midders where you don't even touch each others are one of my favourite things in dota :D
This thread is a great initiative and this subforum is definitely a better place for it knowing the dota commmunity :/ It's also great to see Yango knowledgebombing two subforums :D I'll try and help as much as I can with my 0 knowledge of LoL 
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United States47024 Posts
On March 09 2012 04:04 Qbek wrote:
To elaborate on the last hitting... A last hit is always worht more than a deny. Sometimes thou you can be 99% sure the enemy will deny you and then you can either try to deny other creep yourself if it's avaible or try and deny the deny(exactly) by attacking earlier so that a creep finishes of the target rather than an enemy blow. You can do the same with friendly creeps, attack earlier and deny enemy the gold from a last hit. A wise enemy will adapt quickly and an epic battle will ensue. Rotate all methods and you will succed! This applies mostly to 1v1 early game laning ofc. Those epic battles of solo midders where you don't even touch each others are one of my favourite things in dota :D
This is not always necessarily true, particularly as it pertains to vs. ranged matchups. Denies vs. ranged heroes give 18 xp to the enemy hero, while denies vs. melee heroes give 36 xp (for reference, the default xp values for melee and ranged creeps are 62 and 41 respectively). This means that denying early can build up a sizeable xp advantage, which can be quite useful in some matchups, particularly where the opposing hero has a major shift in power at certain levels (e.g. Shadowfiend at level 5).
That said, those things tend to be more matchup-specific. As a general point it's more useful just to remember that denies are worth more in vs. Ranged matchups than vs. Melee matchups.
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On March 09 2012 04:11 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 04:04 Qbek wrote:
To elaborate on the last hitting... A last hit is always worht more than a deny. Sometimes thou you can be 99% sure the enemy will deny you and then you can either try to deny other creep yourself if it's avaible or try and deny the deny(exactly) by attacking earlier so that a creep finishes of the target rather than an enemy blow. You can do the same with friendly creeps, attack earlier and deny enemy the gold from a last hit. A wise enemy will adapt quickly and an epic battle will ensue. Rotate all methods and you will succed! This applies mostly to 1v1 early game laning ofc. Those epic battles of solo midders where you don't even touch each others are one of my favourite things in dota :D This is not always necessarily true, particularly as it pertains to vs. ranged matchups. Denies vs. ranged heroes give 18 xp to the enemy hero, while denies vs. melee heroes give 36 xp (for reference, the default xp values for melee and ranged creeps are 62 and 41 respectively). This means that denying early can build up a sizeable xp advantage, which can be quite useful in some matchups, particularly where the opposing hero has a major shift in power at certain levels (e.g. Shadowfiend at level 5). That said, those things tend to be more matchup-specific. As a general point it's more useful just to remember that denies are worth more in vs. Ranged matchups than vs. Melee matchups.
Damn you Yango, always there to teach  I can fully agree that it is best to keep some heroes at lowest level possible, but most of the time you're better of just getting more gold for yourself. When I play against a Shadowfiend I just do everything I can to not let him last hit at all, that guy is really bad without some basic levels and Necromastery charges but will win against almost everyone if he has bottle and level 5. My point still stands thou, last hits are by default better than denies, but as with everything in dota, there are exceptions.
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The hard thing about explaining items is that so many heroes are best with pretty much their own item build that only they will get really (like rushing aga on night stalker, who is a strength carry), so it ends with so many exceptions to the rules. I tried to make some sort of guide, but kinda gave up when I was going to get to the ranged agility carries who all end making different items (ie clinkz/viper/potm/weaver/shadow fiend/morph/drow all have rather different optimal item builds. >_<)
Support (cm, lich, lina, enchant, chen, dazzle, wd, warlock, etc)
Items: mana boots, jango, mek, pipe, force staff, necro book, medallion, aga, hex. (Which of these you aim for largely depends on what other team mates are making who will have farm. For example a jango/mek/pipe is always really good for the team, but there's no point slowly building one if you have one already.)
Intiators: (tiny, es, puck)
Items: mana boots for tiny/es, treads for puck then dagger into an item like hex/shiva/aga.
Strength carries: (naix, spirit breaker, huskar, dk)
Vanguard is always a good choice, as is bkb, armlet, ac and heart.
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United States47024 Posts
On March 09 2012 04:24 Goshawk. wrote:
The hard thing about explaining items is that so many heroes are best with pretty much their own item build that only they will get really (like rushing aga on night stalker, who is a strength carry), so it ends with so many exceptions to the rules. I tried to make some sort of guide, but kinda gave up when I was going to get to the ranged agility carries who all end making different items (ie clinkz/viper/potm/weaver/shadow fiend/morph/drow all have rather different optimal item builds. >_<)
Support (cm, lich, lina, enchant, chen, dazzle, wd, warlock, etc)
Items: mana boots, jango, mek, pipe, force staff, necro book, medallion, aga, hex. (Which of these you aim for largely depends on what other team mates are making who will have farm. For example a jango/mek/pipe is always really good for the team, but there's no point slowly building one if you have one already.)
Intiators: (tiny, es, puck)
Items: mana boots for tiny/es, treads for puck then dagger into an item like hex/shiva/aga.
Strength carries: (naix, spirit breaker, huskar, dk)
Vanguard is always a good choice, as is bkb, armlet, ac and heart.
Or you could just go Treads/Phases + Janggo on everyone. Problem solved.
How to decide between Phases and Treads:
Do I want to hit people? Treads
Do I want to run fast? Phases
EDIT: Amusingly, of all the "different" ranged carries, I'd consider Tread/Phases + Janggo to be standard on Viper, PotM, Weaver and SF. As well as on SB and DK from the Strength carries.
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On March 09 2012 04:26 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 04:24 Goshawk. wrote:
The hard thing about explaining items is that so many heroes are best with pretty much their own item build that only they will get really (like rushing aga on night stalker, who is a strength carry), so it ends with so many exceptions to the rules. I tried to make some sort of guide, but kinda gave up when I was going to get to the ranged agility carries who all end making different items (ie clinkz/viper/potm/weaver/shadow fiend/morph/drow all have rather different optimal item builds. >_<)
Support (cm, lich, lina, enchant, chen, dazzle, wd, warlock, etc)
Items: mana boots, jango, mek, pipe, force staff, necro book, medallion, aga, hex. (Which of these you aim for largely depends on what other team mates are making who will have farm. For example a jango/mek/pipe is always really good for the team, but there's no point slowly building one if you have one already.)
Intiators: (tiny, es, puck)
Items: mana boots for tiny/es, treads for puck then dagger into an item like hex/shiva/aga.
Strength carries: (naix, spirit breaker, huskar, dk)
Vanguard is always a good choice, as is bkb, armlet, ac and heart.
Or you could just go Treads/Phases + Janggo on everyone. Problem solved. How to decide between Phases and Treads: Do I want to hit people or not die instantly? Treads Do I want to run fast (and have no health)? Phases
Fixed. >_>
EDIT: Don't really agree with jango, but w/e it's more of a case of it being an amazing item you can just make on anyone.
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So I finished filling out the DotA2 survey on Friday, and on Saturday I decided to take a break from LoL to finish up all my single player games and read a couple books. I figured I wouldn't even get a bloody key.
Tuesday I get a Dota2 invite. Dammit Valve, I got important shit to do, leave me alone.
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Would someone mind explaining how to properly build/play Razor? I've only played him a couple times, but I had fun when I did.
I've been building treads and vanguard, and then I have no idea what else to build after that. I'm not sure if I should try to build more 'tanky' and rely on my W to give me damage, or if I should build damage items. I heard someone say that Heart is a good item to build, but I have no idea if that's right.
I find that I don't do much damage early on, but then once we get to late mid-game, when I walk into team-fights, everything just sort of dies around me. :p
Any help would be appreciated, and I'm bad/new at Dota, so don't take anything I've said as a hard belief, I'm completely open to input and learning, as I have no clue what I'm doing most of the time.
On a more general note, how do you actually learn more about the nuances of Dota? I'm talking about little micro tricks, spell/ability/item interactions that aren't clearly apparent, mechanics like creep-pulling, ancient-stacking, etc. So far I've just been playing for fun, and have maintained a good win-rate, but I don't really know what I've been doing.
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On March 09 2012 05:55 Mr. Wiggles wrote:
Would someone mind explaining how to properly build/play Razor? I've only played him a couple times, but I had fun when I did.
I've been building treads and vanguard, and then I have no idea what else to build after that. I'm not sure if I should try to build more 'tanky' and rely on my W to give me damage, or if I should build damage items. I heard someone say that Heart is a good item to build, but I have no idea if that's right.
I find that I don't do much damage early on, but then once we get to late mid-game, when I walk into team-fights, everything just sort of dies around me. :p
Any help would be appreciated, and I'm bad/new at Dota, so don't take anything I've said as a hard belief, I'm completely open to input and learning, as I have no clue what I'm doing most of the time.
On a more general note, how do you actually learn more about the nuances of Dota? I'm talking about little micro tricks, spell/ability/item interactions that aren't clearly apparent, mechanics like creep-pulling, ancient-stacking, etc. So far I've just been playing for fun, and have maintained a good win-rate, but I don't really know what I've been doing.
Building tanky on razor generally works out well especially for newer players, because of your attack drain, you only really need to worry about staying alive long enough so that one of your opponent's attack goes negative and you get all of it. vanguards and treads are quite good, and most likely you'll want to get a BKB and heart for later on.
Watching VODs is a good way of picking up nuances and micro tricks, you can also look at wc3 dota for a lot of the tricks since many of them carry over. Asking on forums is definately a good way to learn more about something like creep pulling.
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On March 09 2012 05:55 Mr. Wiggles wrote:
Would someone mind explaining how to properly build/play Razor? I've only played him a couple times, but I had fun when I did.
I've been building treads and vanguard, and then I have no idea what else to build after that. I'm not sure if I should try to build more 'tanky' and rely on my W to give me damage, or if I should build damage items. I heard someone say that Heart is a good item to build, but I have no idea if that's right.
I find that I don't do much damage early on, but then once we get to late mid-game, when I walk into team-fights, everything just sort of dies around me. :p
Any help would be appreciated, and I'm bad/new at Dota, so don't take anything I've said as a hard belief, I'm completely open to input and learning, as I have no clue what I'm doing most of the time.
On a more general note, how do you actually learn more about the nuances of Dota? I'm talking about little micro tricks, spell/ability/item interactions that aren't clearly apparent, mechanics like creep-pulling, ancient-stacking, etc. So far I've just been playing for fun, and have maintained a good win-rate, but I don't really know what I've been doing.
No idea about Razor but for learning here is what works well for me at the moment:
#1: Play the game, get yelled at by better people. Okay, most don't even yell. They probably laugh at you while you laugh as well 'cause you died in a stupid way. Guys like yango, dna, navi or goshawk can point out lots of small things over the course of a game.
-"Careful with using Furions ult whenever it's on CD (like every shitty guide recommends) because it totally fucks up lanecontrol."
-"As Lifestealer you can E a creep and then ult it to get the max out of your healing."
-"Oh, weaver? You can just W to their backline, Q their entire team, blow up a support and then ult to be like TROLLOLOL."
-"Urn? Every team should have exactly one, because multiple urns means that everyone gains less stacks on them."
#2: VODs. I recommend every single thing I've seen from Tobi Wan (joindota.com) so far. He is literally one of the best commentators I've ever seen for videogames.
#3: Youtube. Sometimes you find cheesy but cool shit (Dark Seer jungle who stacks the large camp for 10 minutes, clears it with smoke and then instabuys boots+vanguard), but for basics it's very strong. e.g. the entire creep pull / stack thing is something I got from youtube.
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As a LoL support player that eventually wants to try Dota 2: How is the support role played in Dota 2? Are there are any major differences that I should be aware of?
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i hear from support players that its way more fun and fulfilling
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United States47024 Posts
On March 09 2012 05:55 Mr. Wiggles wrote:
Would someone mind explaining how to properly build/play Razor? I've only played him a couple times, but I had fun when I did.
I've been building treads and vanguard, and then I have no idea what else to build after that. I'm not sure if I should try to build more 'tanky' and rely on my W to give me damage, or if I should build damage items. I heard someone say that Heart is a good item to build, but I have no idea if that's right.
I find that I don't do much damage early on, but then once we get to late mid-game, when I walk into team-fights, everything just sort of dies around me. :p
Any help would be appreciated, and I'm bad/new at Dota, so don't take anything I've said as a hard belief, I'm completely open to input and learning, as I have no clue what I'm doing most of the time.
On a more general note, how do you actually learn more about the nuances of Dota? I'm talking about little micro tricks, spell/ability/item interactions that aren't clearly apparent, mechanics like creep-pulling, ancient-stacking, etc. So far I've just been playing for fun, and have maintained a good win-rate, but I don't really know what I've been doing.
Razor is something of a bruiser. He has high baseline spell damage and a powerful AD steal, but his scaling and stat growth are nothing to write home about. In fights, your role is to soak up damage, disrupt the enemy carry with Static Link, and dish out moderate damage with your AoE spells and autoattacks. You are strong midgame, but fall off in power as Static Link loses its effectiveness once their carry can drop the debuff with BKB or Manta.
I dislike vanguard after the nerf on him. You don't get any extra HP out of it, and the damage block is poor for ranged heroes. Turning RoH into Hood (and pipe later) and holding on to Vit Booster for Heart has better effectiveness. Don't get BKB on him--you have passive backlash damage that triggers on taking spell damage. You want to buffer your magic resistance, but magic immunity wastes your E passive.
After vit booster+hood, your development depends on how you feel about your survivability. Pipe gives you more magic protection and pushing power. Heart gives you HP and regen. Assault Cuirass is a fantastic item that synergizes extraordinarily well with your kit--it buffers your low armor, gives you attack speed to complement your AD steroid, and a -armor aura that goes well with your ult.
After you feel comfortable about your survivability, you can round out with damage items. Manta and Butterfly are the most common choices, with Manta selected for its +ms and active, while Butterfly is selected for the dodge.
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On March 09 2012 07:20 Navi wrote:
i hear from support players that its way more fun and fulfilling
This. Support is pretty much the best role in the game, and a good support has a huge responsibility and a lot of different things to think about and work on. The type of support you can play is incredibly varied, and you get a lot of opportunity to see your early game work translate into late game victory.
Playing support in DotA is about 500000000000x better than playing support in LoL.
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Sooooooooooooooooooooooooo,
For some reason I have an odd obsession with Vengeful Spirit. Like I just love everything about her. I dont even know why. Best I can figure the combination of a stun, the ability to be stupidly suicidal, and the troll potential of her ult is just too much.
Anyone have a good guide for actually learning to play her?
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I just played my very first Dota game!
IGN/Steam ID: Abenson
Played skele king like my friend recommended, which is a great idea since I only needed to focus on running around whacking people and point and click stun.
Basically ran around getting carried by juggernaut
+ Show Spoiler [end game screenshot] +
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United States2822 Posts
On March 09 2012 08:33 Two_DoWn wrote:
Sooooooooooooooooooooooooo,
For some reason I have an odd obsession with Vengeful Spirit. Like I just love everything about her. I dont even know why. Best I can figure the combination of a stun, the ability to be stupidly suicidal, and the troll potential of her ult is just too much.
Anyone have a good guide for actually learning to play her?
You have to have a good idea of your enemy heroes' positions both in and out of team fights, whether it be scouting with Wave of Terror or landing the correct Nether Swap on the right target. You are in charge of warding and pulling Smoke ganks because you have an excellent stun.
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On March 09 2012 08:33 Two_DoWn wrote:
Sooooooooooooooooooooooooo,
For some reason I have an odd obsession with Vengeful Spirit. Like I just love everything about her. I dont even know why. Best I can figure the combination of a stun, the ability to be stupidly suicidal, and the troll potential of her ult is just too much.
Anyone have a good guide for actually learning to play her?
Max stun, then howl of terror, then aura, grabbing ulti whenever you can. VS is usually the support bitch. For items, you want to be the one buying the courier/wards. Otherwise you can build basically anything; support items like Force staff, mek, urn, medallion, etc...are generally what you want to aim for. Scepter can be a nice luxury item if you get the gold, but it's highly unlikely you'll ever get that much gold.
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lol. Bounty Hunter must really be the most ghetto hero / champ I've ever played. Gold from laning? Fuck that. MY LVL 6 GIVES EXTRA GOLD ON KILLS/ASSISTS!
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/PP2rN.jpg)
