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[LiquidParty] DotA2 Learning Group ^.^ - Page 12

Forum Index > LoL General
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While this thread is labeled "DotA2", this is in fact a community thread first. Many of the users in the TL LoL subforum have been playing as friends for over a year now, so it makes logical sense that they would want to play other games together.

Do not compare DotA2 to LoL, you will get banned.

TL LoL veterans know what is expected. Newcomers be warned.

gl hf
LAN-f34r
Profile Joined December 2010
New Zealand2099 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-08 05:34:06
March 08 2012 05:33 GMT
#221
EDIT: god man ninjas, hiding from my capped internet TT
The only barrier to truth is the presumption that you already have it. It's through our pane (pain) we window (win though).
rob.au
Profile Joined May 2010
1087 Posts
March 08 2012 05:48 GMT
#222
Since strength gives hp and agility gives armor, hereos who build items with those stats naturally get tankier as the game progresses. It means an agility carry can basically go all damage and still end up tanky in the end.

I can't really see item comparisons to LoL being that beneficial, if you've played LoL you can likely read about an item and pretty much understand what it does. From there you can decide if you think it's good for your hero and useful for the particular game you are in. If you're unsure just make your best guess and look up what people normally get as well as why after the game.
LAN-f34r
Profile Joined December 2010
New Zealand2099 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-08 06:05:02
March 08 2012 06:01 GMT
#223
Many damage items give a way of surviving - butterfly gives evasion, manta give debuff removal, confusing illusions, and stun dodging, ect. Generally you will need a pure hp item though (aka heart), otherwise you can just get nuked down.

edit: why am I an idiot? BKB slightly helps survivability (just slightly).
The only barrier to truth is the presumption that you already have it. It's through our pane (pain) we window (win though).
Ryuu314
Profile Joined October 2009
United States12679 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-08 06:21:45
March 08 2012 06:21 GMT
#224
One important thing to note about items when comparing DotA to LoL is that in LoL it's beneficial to more or less rush the big endgame items, whereas if you do that in DotA you'll often get stomped when you play against better people. Sure, you will sometimes buy a bunch of early/mid game items like dorans or wriggles, but for the most part you just build towards that Warmogs/IE asap. Items that are strictly mid-game utility like Guise, Hexdrinker, stuff like that tend to fall by the wayside and are generally unused. In DotA, mid-game items dominate. You rarely ever see big 5-6k+ items like Butterfly and Heart except on hard carries and even then you'll only see two maybe 3 or 4 big items per team per game (which is usually Manta Style or Radiance or Sheepstick). Reason being in DotA, items tend to get less cost-effective the more expensive they are; cheaper items in the 2-4k range like Vanguard, Eul's, Force staff, BKB also provide a ton of utility for relatively less cost.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-26 07:57:56
March 08 2012 07:26 GMT
#225
Yango's (not so) brief guide to every item in the game (or just some of them because I'm lazy):

Basics (gonna skip mentioning stuff that's usually only bought for components)
+ Show Spoiler [Attributes] +

Ironwood Branch - 90% of the time, you're doing something wrong if you're not starting the game with 2-4 of these. There are a few exceptions, but in the vast majority of cases, you should be starting with branches to buffer your low level stats.

+ Show Spoiler [Armaments] +

Quelling Blade - Regardless of whatever shitty newbie guides say, DO NOT GO TO LANE WITH THIS ITEM (except in a few exceptions generally involving trilanes, 2v1s, or Bloodseeker). Quelling Blade is good for maintaining creep control in a lane where you already have the advantage, but at low levels in an even lane, someone who spent 225 on a Quelling Blade simply can't trade with someone who bought a Stout Shield or stat items. Going to lane with it is especially pointless when you consider that you can stomp someone in lane, THEN buy QB from the side shop when they're too afraid to fight you anyway.

Stout Shield - You pretty much can't feel bad about starting with this item as a melee laner. Sometimes it isn't necessary, but it's always a safe option. For comparison, Stout blocks on average 12 damage per attack--that's stronger than Amumu's max rank E passive, and almost as strong as Fizz's passive at level 18.

+ Show Spoiler [Arcane] +

Cloak - This is pretty much Null-Magic Mantle. Even if you're not going to make Hood, it can still be good to buy on supports/tanky guys to get some protection against magical burst.

Ghost Scepter - One of the most under-bought items in the game. Makes you immune to physical attacks (but slows you and makes you take increased spell damage), and gives enough stats to be worth the cost anyway. Get it on supports/casters against certain autoattack-centric pubstompers (Ursa, Spirit Breaker, Bloodseeker, Clinkz, Huskar, etc.) or just vs. fed lategame carries in general.

+ Show Spoiler [Secret Shop] +

Vitality Booster - Like Giant's Belt. Don't feel bad about getting one of these (or Point Booster) if you feel you need to buffer your HP a bit, particularly on supports.


Upgrades
+ Show Spoiler [Boots] +

Gonna do boots separately because this is something that I think should specifically be addressed for LoL players. Compared to DotA, people generally stick on Boots 1 in LoL for a really long time, largely because the stat gains from upgrading to Boots 2 aren't very useful or well-rounded compared to other stats in lane. However, in DotA, the boots upgrade are very frequently the first major buy after basic laning stuff (e.g. Bottle, Ring of Basilius). All 3 of the common boots upgrades are very useful in lane, and are definitely worth having early.

Power Treads - You can sort of compare these to Zerks, but it wouldn't really do them justice. If you're going to do lategame autoattack DPS, get these (this includes some caster carries like Storm Spirit, Queen of Pain, or Necrolyte).

Phase Boots - Ghost active. Again, sort of like mobility boots, but still not really apt because the active is so much better. These boots are best for gankers or for heroes who have very range/positioning sensitive skills (e.g. Windrunner, Vengeful Spirit, etc.). There's also some overlap on the heroes that want Treads or Phases, and it's largely up to playstyle or how the game is playing out to decide between the two. The general rule is that Phases are stronger early game and Treads are better lategame.

Arcane Boots - Clarity active. Anyone that wants to spam their spells alot, don't have the baseline regen for it, and doesn't really want the previous 2 boots get these. This primarily includes tanky gankers/initiators like Beastmaster, Earthshaker, and Clockwerk Goblin.

Boots of Travel - Teleport active. In the past, there's been a lot of experimenting with fast BoTs to be able to farm/push faster and exert better map control. For the most part, unless you're Tinker, don't worry about these till lategame.

Tranquil Boots - After some buffs, these have gotten pretty good. Generally there are two types of heroes that will get these: 1) lategame hard carries that don't expect to teamfight heavily in the early/mid-game and want the lane sustain, 2) supports that need upgraded boots but are in too poor of shape to get other types of boots. Note that these boots are not good for teamfighting. They are good for laning, roaming, and farming/jungling. Heroes that are doing these things and really want the sustain should consider these boots.

+ Show Spoiler [Common] +

Wraith Band, Null Talisman, Bracer - Sort of like Doran's items. Good to get 1-2 if you need some early stats, generally never more than 2, and even rarely that many. Generally if you get 1, you plan on building it into the corresponding upgrade item (Ring of Aquila or Janggo).

Magic Wand - Store up charges, get a quick heal/mana restore. Sort of hard to thoroughly explain the uses thoroughly, suffice it to say that it's usually not bad to get one.

Poor Man's Shield - Upgrade from Stout Shield for more damage block. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. Only spend the 300 to upgrade if you feel the 6 Agi/extra damage block will make a meaningful difference in lane--otherwise just save for other stuff.

Soul Ring - Cheap regen stats. Sort of like Philo Stone with a health->mana active instead of gp10? I personally don't really like this item and think it's somewhat overbought. It's good for carries with high HP regen that need the mana but don't want to buy Arcanes over Treads (Broodmother, Dragon Knight), but otherwise, Arcanes usually has better overall utility.

Oblivion Staff, Perseverance - Components. Don't buy them unless you're buying things they build into.

Hand of Midas - I don't like the Smite comparison because that makes it seem better than it is. It's best compared to a gp10 item that generates gold faster, but is way more expensive and gives relatively unhelpful stats. If you're fed enough to buy one in the first 5-7 minutes of the game, you can snowball off of it, but usually it sucks.

+ Show Spoiler [Support] +

Ring of Basilius - Armor/mana regen aura. Good to help early mana usage in sidelanes, and toggling aura on creeps can help push the lane. Upgrade to Ring of Aquila if you were going to get both Wraith Band and RoB anyway, but don't go out of your way to make it.

Headdress, Buckler - Components. Don't buy them unless you're buying things they build into.

Urn of Shadows - Builds up charges on kills/assists, charges can be used like Ignite or as a Healing Salve. Good for gankers, but if your team doesn't have a good urn-carrying ganker, a support should get it. Every team should have one.

Medallion of Courage - Active armor shred on target (and yourself). Good support item to buffer your armor/mana regen, and to help physical damage dealers on your team.

Janggo (Drums) - Probably my favorite item in the game. Imagine if Shurelya's built from Doran's Blade and gave combat stats (HP, damage, attack speed, mana) rather than regen stats, and you have Janggo. There's pretty much no hero in the game for whom Janggo is bad. Don't feel bad about buying Janggo even if someone else on your team has it--the aura doesn't comprise that much of its cost, and buying new Janggos is more cost-effective than refilling them.

Vladimir's Offering - The only source of lifesteal in the game that's not an orb effect. A team with a melee carry should have one by lategame, but with a few exceptions, it's usually bought on a support or tanky ganker/initiator rather than the carry themselves.

Mekansm - Heal active. Is insanely cost-effective (even if you only ever used the heal for yourself, it would be worth it). Every team should have one--usually bought on a pusher or caster semicarry, but can be bought on support if no one else is fit to buy it.

Pipe - Locket active, but less shitty. Upgrades smoothly from Hood. Your team should usually have one, but it's not as necessary as Urn or Mek. This is NOT a support item--it's too expensive, and the stats aren't well-rounded enough for them. Generally it's bought on a tanky ganker/initiator, but it can also be bought on a caster as a lategame item, if you have enough CC but are lacking defensive/pushing power, and deem it to be more useful than Sheepstick.

+ Show Spoiler [Caster] +

Force Staff - Active pushes the target in the direction they're facing. Mediocre stats, but VERY good active. The nerf makes it somewhat less cost-effective, but supports will still be getting this in multiples (though some higher-position heroes will be reconsidering its usefulness compared to other items).

Necronomicon - Active summons 2 little guys. This is a pretty quirky item. Intelligence and Strength are good stats to have, but the direct utility of the Necronomicon Warriors isn't that clear. Useful for pushes, but otherwise has a few niche uses. A fun item, play around with it.

Eul's Scepter - Active cyclone--think Zhonya's active usable on anyone. The most awkward thing about the item is that you're buying a lot of mana regen that you might not use entirely. Nice on a few heroes, but I'd generally consider Force Staff first if I'm thinking about mid-tier utility actives.

Dagon - The active is like DFG. It's a good pubstomp item on casters, but otherwise pretty underwhelming.

Veil of Discord - Active AoE MR shred (think active version of Abyssal aura). This item is fairly under-bought. I'd say its worth considering on supports if you have an AoE magic damage team.

Rod of Atos - Active slow--like Gunblade active, but without the damage. Active is pretty underwhelming, but the item is pretty cost-effective for the stats. With a couple recent buffs (including a pretty absurd range buff) and the nerf to Force Staff, this item is worth looking at.

Aghanim's Scepter - Buffs certain ultimates while giving a mix of all stats. Not much to say, other than it's utility depends on the hero in question. For some heroes it's core, for other's its useless.

Orchid Malevolence - Active silence that also amps damage on the target. You generally don't buy this item for teamfights, but on certain heroes with strong ganking/solo killing ability, this is a good item to make that ability stronger. It's cost-efficient, but doesn't provide well-rounded stats. Buy it if you think you can make good on the ganking power, but otherwise, save for better things.

Refresher Orb - Active refreshes all cooldowns. Lategame troll item. Buy if you are a badass.

Scythe of the Vyse - Active hexes (effectively stun) the target. The holy grail of caster utility items. Gives well-rounded stats, and especially strong boost to your mana/regen. Most caster semicarries will save for this after their midgame core.

+ Show Spoiler [Weapons] +

Crystalys, Daedalus - Like Infinity Edge, but as mentioned before, not all that good. You generally don't have the luxury of being able to buy a purely offensive item like this, and while it's damage is high, it offers zero utility compared to other items. Can be a fun lategame item if you're fed and want to see big crits, but normally not practical.

Armlet - Active gives Strength, damage, and attack speed while draining a significant amount of HP per second. Can be toggled on or off pretty much freely (5 second CD on turning it on, but the CD starts when you activate it, not when you deactivate it). Core on Strength carries with innate healing/lifesteal to help them manage the HP drain (Lifestealer, Huskar, Skeleton King), more situational on other carries. Can still be a fun item regardless because of "armlet juking" (because the HP drain and Strength loss cannot kill you, quickly deactivating and reactivating Armlet at low HP can quickly bump you back to 475 HP, provided you don't die in the split-second where you have 1 HP).

Basher - Passive chance to stun autoattack target. Often seen as a troll item, but actually can be situationally useful on carries if you need the ability to 1v1 someone. Otherwise, the stats aren't that well-rounded.

Shadow Blade - Active stealth + MS buff. Traditionally seen as somewhat of a pubstomp item, but major buffs have made it a decent situational item on several heroes for its ganking ability. Just don't get into too many bad habits having it around as an escape against bad players.

Battle Fury - Tiamat, but more useful. The regen stats and cleave make it primarily known for being an afk-farm item on certain melee hard carries, but it can also be a lategame AoE dps item for some Strength carries. I wouldn't recommend it on heroes that can avoid it (as I don't think you learn anything from playing afk-farm style), but certain heroes like Faceless Void aren't all that effective played any other way.

Ethereal Blade - Active does scaling magic damage based on your agility, and applies the Ghost Scepter buff/debuff to both you and the target (can't autoattack/be autoattacked, but take increased damage from spells). Gives scaling burst damage to agility heroes, improving their solo-killing ability. Still generally not a serious item except on Morphling or Broodmother.

Radiance - Imagine if a BF Sword item had the Sunfire passive--that's Radiance. Despite being as expensive as it is, the primary purpose of Radiance for Radiance users is generally to use it to farm. It's still good on quite a few of the carries that make use of its farming power (and have better synergy with Radiance than with either of the other farming item options--Battle Fury or Mjollnir).

Monkey King Bar - Two passives - first is that your autoattacks can't miss (regardless of whether that's blind effects on you or enemy dodge), second is proc chance for bonus damage and ministun. Very cost-effective single-item DPS, but primarily considered in cases where a carry/semicarry needs the True Strike to fight the enemy carry.

Butterfly - Lategame capstone item for agility carries (kinda like old Phantom Dancer). Not a well-rounded item, but nevertheless powerful after you've got your core utility/survivability items already.

Divine Rapier - +300 damage, drops on death. Only buy if you are extremely BM, extremely awesome, or in a desperate situation where you need to gamble on it to win.

Abyssal Blade - active stun that ignores magic immunity. Turn Basher into this lategame if you bought it and have money to burn.

+ Show Spoiler [Armor] +

Hood of Defiance - FoN, Negatron, whatever you want to compare it to. It's pretty much the big magic resistance item. For tanky heroes that aren't trying to necessarily avoid magic damage, but want to soak up hits for their team, this is a good choice. It's also necessary for whoever is trying to make Pipe. Supports will generally just want to stay on Cloak because Hood spends a LOT on regen stats that might not be useful or efficient for them.

Blade Mail - Thornmail was based on Blade Mail, then Blade Mail got remade to not suck. Active reflects 100% of damage for the duration. Good against high burst damage sources (Huskar ult, Necrolyte ult, etc.). Otherwise, the stats are slightly awkward.

Vanguard - USED to be the most cost-effective survivability item in the game, but has been nerfed repeatedly. It's still good if you were planning on getting all 3 parts anyway, but it's not something you'll go out of your way to make.

Soul Booster - Components. Don't buy them unless you're buying things they build into.

Black King Bar - Magic Immunity active. Everyone should know what this does.

Shiva's Guard - Frozen Heart with a super huge version of the Randuin active that does damage. This is often the best armor source for caster semicarries (and along with Assault Cuirass, one of the 2 lategame armor options for non-Agility carries in general).

Bloodstone - Snowball item that gives mana regen, reduced dead time, and reduced gold loss on death for stacks. Used to be extremely good, but after nerfs, it's only good on a small subset of heroes: Leshrac, Storm Spirit, and Goblin Shredder (who is yet to be added to the game). That said, the item's smooth buildup (you can use the Energy Booster to make Arcane Boots, then disassemble the Arcanes when you have Soul Booster and make Treads or Travels instead) makes it somewhat appealing, especially for pub games.

Linken's Sphere - Banshee's spell block (but only on targeted spells). Unwieldy largely because you're spending ~2k gold on regen stats, which are not that useful on many heroes. On a hero that actually does make use of those regen stats (like Morphling) it can be a great choice.

Assault Cuirass - Armor aura, armor shred aura, attack speed aura. A very common lategame item for Strength carries, as Strength gives you plenty of HP and damage, but lacking attack speed and armor, and this gives healthy amounts of both. "The Strength carry's butterfly"--it caps off Strength carry builds similar to the way Butterfly rounds out Agi carry builds.

Heart of the Tarrasque - Sort of like Warmog's, but not really. Good lategame HP source for any hero, not just Strength heroes (I think I actually end up buying this on Agility heroes more often than Strength heroes, largely because by the time I'd consider it, most Strength carries don't need more HP/damage).

+ Show Spoiler [Artifacts] +

Going to preface this section by making note of the fact that other than Sange, Yasha, S&Y, Manta Style, and Heaven's Halberd, all the items here are orb effects. Orb effects do not stack with one another. Only one takes effect. The rules on which one takes precedence are complicated as fuck--just remember you don't want to waste money having more than one orb. Note that lots of heroes already have orbs (Antimage's Mana Break, Weaver's Geminate Attack, etc.), and in most of those cases you shouldn't consider buying additional orbs at all (Drow Ranger is a notable exception, as it's still worth getting a lifesteal orb on her, because you don't need Frost Arrows on every attack).

Helm of the Dominator, Satanic - Wriggle's is an apt comparison, given that they give the same stats. Helm gives the ability to dominate a creep instead of a free ward, Satanic loses that ability for a +175% lifesteal steroid. Even if you're bad at micro-ing the creep, some of them still have good auras (Alpha Wolf gives a +% AD aura, Centaur Khan gives a + ASpd aura), and can be used to stack jungle camps for you. This is the most common lategame orb for ranged hard carries. Less common on melee carries because of how comparatively awkward the Satanic active is to use for a melee.

Mask of Madness - Active gives a ton of attack speed and movespeed, but also makes you take more damage. It's a good pubstomp item on certain heroes, but not really a safe item choice by any means.

Sange & Yasha - Triforce without the Sheen proc. Like Triforce, it's quite cost-effective, but few heroes use all of the stats efficiently. There are arguably better HP sources for agility heroes, and better attack speed sources for strength heroes. Still, there will be situations where carries want chasing power more than the specific utility of Heaven's Halberd or Manta Style.

Sange, Heaven's Halberd - Listed together because you're pretty much never going to buy Sange and not build it to Heaven's Halberd. Sange is kind of like Phage. Heaven's Halberd active makes the target unable to autoattack for a few seconds. Overall, it's a cost-effective source of HP and damage, and the only sensible source of Dodge for strength carries. The utility is just icing on the cake.

Yasha, Manta Style - You could say Yasha is kind of like Zeal, and and Manta Style is kind of like PD, but it's probably just more useful to say that this is THE core item for most of the agility carries in the game. It gives fantastic stats, giving both a ton of agility and attack speed, as well healthy amounts of Strength, Intelligence, and movespeed. The clincher is the fact that Manta Style active has arguably the most utility of any active in the game. The illusions themselves make you hard to focus until the enemy figures out which the real one is, while adding to your in-fight damage and pushing power. The 0.1 second animation delay can be used to dodge projectiles. And using the active clears you of almost every debuff in the game.

Maelstrom, Mjollnir - Passive chain lightning proc similar to Ionic Spark. Mjollnir has an active shield that causes backlash damage to anyone that deals damage to the target. Along with MKB, this is one of the best single-item DPS items in the game, as well as being one of the best non-agility attack speed sources. It can be considered an alternative to Assault Cuirass as an attack speed source for Strength heroes--while you will probably be less tanky, and will provide less team utility, the increase in DPS and farming power are very much noticeable.

Diffusal Blade - Passive mana burn like the old Wit's End. Active is a purge that also slows if used on enemies. Not necessarily core on anyone except a few illusion heroes, but good situational utility on certain heroes if you need the slow, mana burn or purge (e.g. vs. some heroes like Omniknight).

Desolator - Procs a -armor debuff somewhat like Black Cleaver, but applied as a single debuff, rather than stacking. Very high damage for it's cost, but at the stage of the game where you can afford to to get a pure damage item like Deso, -armor is often already less appealing than, say, MKB's True Strike. Still useful with certain -armor based team setups.

Eye of Skadi - Slow on hit, kind of like Frozen Mallet. Skadi is actually NOT an Orb effect (though it is still a buff placer, and therefore won't stack with some orbs that are also buff placers). Some ranged heroes will get Skadi in addition to another orb like Satanic, while most melees will not get Skadi.
Moderator
r.Evo
Profile Joined August 2006
Germany14080 Posts
March 08 2012 07:55 GMT
#226
On March 08 2012 16:26 TheYango wrote:
Yango's (not so) brief guide to every item in the game (or just some of them because I'm lazy):

Basics (gonna skip mentioning stuff that's usually only bought for components)
+ Show Spoiler [Attributes] +

Ironwood Branch - 90% of the time, you're doing something wrong if you're not starting the game with 2-4 of these. There are a few exceptions, but in the vast majority of cases, you should be starting with branches to buffer your low level stats.

+ Show Spoiler [Armaments] +

Quelling Blade - Regardless of whatever shitty newbie guides say, DO NOT GO TO LANE WITH THIS ITEM (except in a few exceptions generally involving trilanes or Bloodseeker). Quelling Blade is good for maintaining creep control in a lane where you already have the advantage, but at low levels in an even lane, someone who spent 225 on a Quelling Blade simply can't trade with someone who bought a Stout Shield or stat items. Going to lane with it is especially pointless when you consider that you can stomp someone in lane, THEN buy QB from the side shop when they're too afraid to fight you anyway.

Stout Shield - You pretty much can't feel bad about starting with this item as a melee laner. Sometimes it isn't necessary, but it's always a safe option. For comparison, Stout blocks on average 12 damage per attack--that's stronger than Amumu's max rank E passive, and almost as strong as Fizz's passive at level 18.

+ Show Spoiler [Arcane] +

Cloak - This is pretty much Null-Magic Mantle. Even if you're not going to make Hood, it can still be good to buy on supports/tanky guys to get some protection against magical burst.

Ghost Scepter - One of the most under-bought items in the game. Makes you immune to physical attacks, and gives enough stats to be worth the cost anyway. Get it on supports/casters against certain autoattack-centric pubstompers (Ursa, Spirit Breaker, Bloodseeker, Clinkz, Huskar, etc.) or just vs. fed lategame carries in general.

+ Show Spoiler [Secret Shop] +

Vitality Booster - Like Giant's Belt. Don't feel bad about getting one of these (or Point Booster) if you feel you need to buffer your HP a bit, particularly on supports.


Upgrades
+ Show Spoiler [Boots] +

Gonna do boots separately because this is something that I think should specifically be addressed for LoL players. Compared to DotA, people generally stick on Boots 1 in LoL for a really long time, largely because the stat gains from upgrading to Boots 2 aren't very useful or well-rounded compared to other stats in lane. However, in DotA, the boots upgrade are very frequently the first major buy after basic laning stuff (e.g. Bottle, Ring of Basilius). All 3 of the common boots upgrades are very useful in lane, and are definitely worth having early.

Power Treads - You can sort of compare these to Zerks, but it wouldn't really do them justice. If you're going to do lategame autoattack DPS, get these (this includes some caster carries like Storm Spirit, Queen of Pain, or Necrolyte).

Phase Boots - Ghost active. Again, sort of like mobility boots, but still not really apt because the active is so much better. These boots are best for gankers or for heroes who have very range/positioning sensitive skills (e.g. Windrunner, Vengeful Spirit, etc.). There's also some overlap on the heroes that want Treads or Phases, and it's largely up to playstyle or how the game is playing out to decide between the two.

Arcane Boots - Clarity active. Anyone that wants to spam their spells alot, don't have the baseline regen for it, and doesn't really want the previous 2 boots get these. This primarily includes tanky gankers/initiators like Beastmaster, Earthshaker, and Clockwerk Goblin.

Boots of Travel - Teleport active. In the past, there's been a lot of experimenting with fast BoTs to be able to farm/push faster and exert better map control. For the most part, unless you're Tinker, don't worry about these till lategame.

Tranquil Boots - Don't buy these. Trust me.

+ Show Spoiler [Common] +

Wraith Band, Null Talisman, Bracer - Sort of like Doran's items. Good to get 1-2 if you need some early stats, generally never more than 2, and even rarely that many.

Magic Wand - Store up charges, get a quick heal/mana restore. Sort of hard to thoroughly explain the uses thoroughly, suffice it to say that it's usually not bad to get one.

Poor Man's Shield - Upgrade from Stout Shield for more damage block. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. Only spend the 300 to upgrade if you feel the 6 Agi/extra damage block will make a meaningful difference in lane--otherwise just save for other stuff.

Soul Ring - Cheap regen stats. Sort of like Philo Stone with a health->mana active instead of gp10? I personally don't really like this item and think it's somewhat overbought. It's good for carries with high HP regen that need the mana but don't want to buy Arcanes over Treads (Broodmother, Dragon Knight), but otherwise, Arcanes usually has better overall utility.

Oblivion Staff, Perseverance - Components. Don't buy them unless you're buying things they build into.

Hand of Midas - I don't like the Smite comparison because that makes it seem better than it is. It's best compared to a gp10 item that generates gold faster, but is way more expensive and gives relatively unhelpful stats. If you're fed enough to buy one in the first 5-7 minutes of the game, you can snowball off of it, but usually it sucks.

+ Show Spoiler [Support] +

Ring of Basilius - Armor/mana regen aura. Good to help early mana usage in sidelanes, and toggling aura on creeps can help push the lane. Upgrade to Ring of Aquila if you were going to get both Wraith Band and RoB anyway, but don't go out of your way to make it.

Headdress, Buckler - Components. Don't buy them unless you're buying things they build into.

Urn of Shadows - Builds up charges on kills/assists, charges can be used like Ignite or as a Healing Salve. Good for gankers, but if your team doesn't have a good urn-carrying ganker, a support should get it. Every team should have one.

Medallion of Courage - Active armor shred on target (and yourself). Good support item to buffer your armor/mana regen, and to help physical damage dealers on your team.

Janggo (Drums) - Probably my favorite item in the game. Imagine if Shurelya's built from Doran's Blade and gave combat stats (HP, damage, attack speed, mana) rather than regen stats, and you have Janggo. There's pretty much no hero in the game for whom Janggo is bad. Don't feel bad about buying Janggo even if someone else on your team has it--the aura doesn't comprise that much of its cost, and buying new Janggos is more cost-effective than refilling them.

Vladimir's Offering - The only source of lifesteal in the game that's not an orb effect. A team with a melee carry should have one by lategame, but with a few exceptions, it's usually bought on a support or tanky ganker/initiator rather than the carry themselves.

Mekansm - Heal active. Is insanely cost-effective (even if you only ever used the heal for yourself, it would be worth it). Every team should have one--usually bought on a pusher or caster semicarry, but can be bought on support if no one else is fit to buy it.

Pipe - Locket active, but less shitty. Upgrades smoothly from Hood. Your team should usually have one, but it's not as necessary as Urn or Mek. This is NOT a support item--it's too expensive, and the stats aren't well-rounded enough for them. Generally it's bought on a tanky ganker/initiator, but it can also be bought on a caster as a lategame item, if you have enough CC but are lacking defensive/pushing power, and deem it to be more useful than Sheepstick.


More later.



You Sir are awesome. I'll add this to the OP. (Keep in mind guys Valve has a "commend" function. I have fuck no idea what it does besides making your profile look cooler but that's enough to recommend it if you liked shit someone did for you. <3)
"We don't make mistakes here, we call it happy little accidents." ~Bob Ross
broz0rs
Profile Joined July 2008
United States2294 Posts
March 08 2012 08:40 GMT
#227
man, this thread is just too good. I have the game, but I really had no interest in playing after my test runs since I've never played the original. Also, this game seems really daunting. I really don't want to learn a game of this magnitude from scratch. However, just skimming through this thread's content is really tempting me to try it again. Really good work of putting this together.
Senx
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Sweden5901 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-08 14:37:10
March 08 2012 14:35 GMT
#228
Best way to learn is just trial and error, kinda like buying the flying courier upgrade(which I didnt even know was an upgrade) first instead of the animal courier, herpa derpa

Also playing CM like taric was a very bad idea, i'd CC someone and then get caught and get 2 shot, hehe.
"trash micro but win - its marine" MC commentary during HSC 4
mordek
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States12704 Posts
March 08 2012 14:45 GMT
#229
On March 08 2012 17:40 broz0rs wrote:
man, this thread is just too good. I have the game, but I really had no interest in playing after my test runs since I've never played the original. Also, this game seems really daunting. I really don't want to learn a game of this magnitude from scratch. However, just skimming through this thread's content is really tempting me to try it again. Really good work of putting this together.

I totally agree. Played maybe a game or two of the original.

Yango, your post is awesome.
It is vanity to love what passes quickly and not to look ahead where eternal joy abides. Tiberius77 | Mordek #1881 "I took a mint!"
Two_DoWn
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States13684 Posts
March 08 2012 14:50 GMT
#230
So these orb effects. I know you said they were complex as fuck: lay it on me. If I have multiplr orbs, does only one get proced, or do they alternate. Are hero orbs given preference?
"What is the air speed velocity of an unladen courier?" "Dire or Radiant?"
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-08 15:08:01
March 08 2012 14:59 GMT
#231
On March 08 2012 23:50 Two_DoWn wrote:
So these orb effects. I know you said they were complex as fuck: lay it on me. If I have multiplr orbs, does only one get proced, or do they alternate. Are hero orbs given preference?

Part of the reason it's complicated as fuck is that the exact orb behavior is not the same in DotA 2 as it was in DotA 1, and in some cases it's changed from patch to patch in DotA 2.

Essentially, the whole reason orb effects exist is because of how autoattacks in Warcraft III had the limitation where they could only be modified by one "orb" (for reasons relevant to balance in Warcraft III), and could only place a maximum of one debuff on the target enemy. DotA was balanced around orb effects being the way they were, and so while DotA 2 has the opportunity to move away from the convoluted orb system, Icefrog is intentionally moving carefully because of the possibility of totally mucking up balance.

In the case of most orb effects, you will get one effect that has higher priority. There's no reasonable logic to which orbs are given priority--because the priority is based on which basic skills they were modeled from in the Warcraft III Map Editor.

Also note that bash, cleave, and crit are not orb effects. They were implemented separately as their own mechanics in Warcraft III (they had some weird issues with stacking properly with orbs, but DotA 2 has resolved all of them I believe--AFAIK bashes, cleave and crit stack properly with all orbs).
Moderator
Two_DoWn
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States13684 Posts
March 08 2012 15:08 GMT
#232
so if i have an orb from my skills and buy an orb, only one is ever on the attack, and that orb will be the only one that procs, all depending on which the map thinks is higher priority?
"What is the air speed velocity of an unladen courier?" "Dire or Radiant?"
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-08 15:58:18
March 08 2012 15:17 GMT
#233
On March 09 2012 00:08 Two_DoWn wrote:
so if i have an orb from my skills and buy an orb, only one is ever on the attack, and that orb will be the only one that procs, all depending on which the map thinks is higher priority?

Yes.

I'm not 100% sure how this applies on orbs that don't proc on every attack. In DotA 1, those still counted as Orb effects even on the attacks that didn't proc them--but in DotA 2 I know for sure that Maelstrom/Mjollnir allows other orbs when it doesn't proc. I'm not sure about the behavior with other proc chance/CD orbs.

Somewhat related is buff placers: an autoattack can't put multiple debuffs on the target, even if only one of them is an orb effect. A buff placer that's not an orb (e.g. Venomancer's poison attack) can stack with an orb that's not a buff placer (e.g. Lifesteal).

Also, apparently Sange's slow got changed a while back to stack with everything except manual-casted orbs and other maim effects? Fuck, this is always so confusing.
Moderator
Shinbi
Profile Joined December 2009
338 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-08 18:00:39
March 08 2012 17:50 GMT
#234
On March 09 2012 00:17 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 09 2012 00:08 Two_DoWn wrote:
so if i have an orb from my skills and buy an orb, only one is ever on the attack, and that orb will be the only one that procs, all depending on which the map thinks is higher priority?

Yes.

I'm not 100% sure how this applies on orbs that don't proc on every attack. In DotA 1, those still counted as Orb effects even on the attacks that didn't proc them--but in DotA 2 I know for sure that Maelstrom/Mjollnir allows other orbs when it doesn't proc. I'm not sure about the behavior with other proc chance/CD orbs.

Somewhat related is buff placers: an autoattack can't put multiple debuffs on the target, even if only one of them is an orb effect. A buff placer that's not an orb (e.g. Venomancer's poison attack) can stack with an orb that's not a buff placer (e.g. Lifesteal).

Also, apparently Sange's slow got changed a while back to stack with everything except manual-casted orbs and other maim effects? Fuck, this is always so confusing.



To expand on this: http://www.playdota.com/mechanics/Orb_Effects explains all the relevant information [assuming none of it was changed in transitioning to Dota 2]. It's a rather large chart, but after playing the game and buying relevant items/orbs, you will remember what stacks [or doesn't stack] with what and on what conditions along with the individual item quirks [such as Satanic itself being an orb effect while the active is not an orb -unless this was changed as of late-]. I always found playing the game really to be the best way to remember things as it's when the conflict happens that you realize that it doesn't work [like I didn't realize having a stygian on Medusa was useless as Split Shot completely breaks with it, but I wouldn't have even remembered this through reading].
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
March 08 2012 18:01 GMT
#235
On March 09 2012 02:50 Shinbi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 09 2012 00:17 TheYango wrote:
On March 09 2012 00:08 Two_DoWn wrote:
so if i have an orb from my skills and buy an orb, only one is ever on the attack, and that orb will be the only one that procs, all depending on which the map thinks is higher priority?

Yes.

I'm not 100% sure how this applies on orbs that don't proc on every attack. In DotA 1, those still counted as Orb effects even on the attacks that didn't proc them--but in DotA 2 I know for sure that Maelstrom/Mjollnir allows other orbs when it doesn't proc. I'm not sure about the behavior with other proc chance/CD orbs.

Somewhat related is buff placers: an autoattack can't put multiple debuffs on the target, even if only one of them is an orb effect. A buff placer that's not an orb (e.g. Venomancer's poison attack) can stack with an orb that's not a buff placer (e.g. Lifesteal).

Also, apparently Sange's slow got changed a while back to stack with everything except manual-casted orbs and other maim effects? Fuck, this is always so confusing.



To expand on this: http://www.playdota.com/mechanics/Orb_Effects explains all the relevant information [assuming none of it was changed in transitioning to Dota 2]. It's a rather large chart, but after playing the game and buying relevant items/orbs, you will remember what stacks [or doesn't stack] with what and on what conditions along with the individual item quirks [such as Satanic itself being an orb effect while the active is not an orb -unless this was changed as of late-]. I always found playing the game really to be the best way to remember things as it's when the conflict happens that you realize that it doesn't work [like I didn't realize having a stygian on Medusa was useless as Split Shot completely breaks with it, but I wouldn't have even remembered this through reading].

Fortunately, it isn't quite that complicated anymore: http://dev.dota2.com/showthread.php?t=5071
Moderator
JBright
Profile Joined September 2010
Vancouver14381 Posts
March 08 2012 18:02 GMT
#236
On March 09 2012 02:50 Shinbi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 09 2012 00:17 TheYango wrote:
On March 09 2012 00:08 Two_DoWn wrote:
so if i have an orb from my skills and buy an orb, only one is ever on the attack, and that orb will be the only one that procs, all depending on which the map thinks is higher priority?

Yes.

I'm not 100% sure how this applies on orbs that don't proc on every attack. In DotA 1, those still counted as Orb effects even on the attacks that didn't proc them--but in DotA 2 I know for sure that Maelstrom/Mjollnir allows other orbs when it doesn't proc. I'm not sure about the behavior with other proc chance/CD orbs.

Somewhat related is buff placers: an autoattack can't put multiple debuffs on the target, even if only one of them is an orb effect. A buff placer that's not an orb (e.g. Venomancer's poison attack) can stack with an orb that's not a buff placer (e.g. Lifesteal).

Also, apparently Sange's slow got changed a while back to stack with everything except manual-casted orbs and other maim effects? Fuck, this is always so confusing.



To expand on this: http://www.playdota.com/mechanics/Orb_Effects explains all the relevant information [assuming none of it was changed in transitioning to Dota 2]. It's a rather large chart, but after playing the game and buying relevant items/orbs, you will remember what stacks [or doesn't stack] with what and on what conditions along with the individual item quirks [such as Satanic itself being an orb effect while the active is not an orb -unless this was changed as of late-]. I always found playing the game really to be the best way to remember things as it's when the conflict happens that you realize that it doesn't work [like I didn't realize having a stygian on Medusa was useless as Split Shot completely breaks with it, but I wouldn't have even remembered this through reading].


Is this why a lot of the heores with other orb effects end up getting vlads so they can have lifesteal aura instead?
ModeratorThe good and the wise lead quiet lives. Neo's #1 Frenemy and nightmare.
dtz
Profile Joined September 2010
5834 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-08 18:13:26
March 08 2012 18:12 GMT
#237
On March 09 2012 03:02 JBright wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 09 2012 02:50 Shinbi wrote:
On March 09 2012 00:17 TheYango wrote:
On March 09 2012 00:08 Two_DoWn wrote:
so if i have an orb from my skills and buy an orb, only one is ever on the attack, and that orb will be the only one that procs, all depending on which the map thinks is higher priority?

Yes.

I'm not 100% sure how this applies on orbs that don't proc on every attack. In DotA 1, those still counted as Orb effects even on the attacks that didn't proc them--but in DotA 2 I know for sure that Maelstrom/Mjollnir allows other orbs when it doesn't proc. I'm not sure about the behavior with other proc chance/CD orbs.

Somewhat related is buff placers: an autoattack can't put multiple debuffs on the target, even if only one of them is an orb effect. A buff placer that's not an orb (e.g. Venomancer's poison attack) can stack with an orb that's not a buff placer (e.g. Lifesteal).

Also, apparently Sange's slow got changed a while back to stack with everything except manual-casted orbs and other maim effects? Fuck, this is always so confusing.



To expand on this: http://www.playdota.com/mechanics/Orb_Effects explains all the relevant information [assuming none of it was changed in transitioning to Dota 2]. It's a rather large chart, but after playing the game and buying relevant items/orbs, you will remember what stacks [or doesn't stack] with what and on what conditions along with the individual item quirks [such as Satanic itself being an orb effect while the active is not an orb -unless this was changed as of late-]. I always found playing the game really to be the best way to remember things as it's when the conflict happens that you realize that it doesn't work [like I didn't realize having a stygian on Medusa was useless as Split Shot completely breaks with it, but I wouldn't have even remembered this through reading].


Is this why a lot of the heores with other orb effects end up getting vlads so they can have lifesteal aura instead?


Yes. Vlad's lifesteal is an aura instead of an orb effect. Therefore for heroes like AM / Ursa who already have orb effects in their attacks ( mana break/fury swipes respectively), they have to get vlads instead of lifesteal orb items such as morbid mask/helm of dominator/mask of madness.

This is also why , if you are building Vlads as Antimage and you bought morbid mask first and don't have enough money for the other components yet, please don't carry it around and just leave the morbid mask in stash/courier or something. The lifesteal orb from morbid mask will override your mana break. Carry it only when it is a full vlads and the lifesteal has become aura.
Shinbi
Profile Joined December 2009
338 Posts
March 08 2012 18:13 GMT
#238
On March 09 2012 03:02 JBright wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 09 2012 02:50 Shinbi wrote:
On March 09 2012 00:17 TheYango wrote:
On March 09 2012 00:08 Two_DoWn wrote:
so if i have an orb from my skills and buy an orb, only one is ever on the attack, and that orb will be the only one that procs, all depending on which the map thinks is higher priority?

Yes.

I'm not 100% sure how this applies on orbs that don't proc on every attack. In DotA 1, those still counted as Orb effects even on the attacks that didn't proc them--but in DotA 2 I know for sure that Maelstrom/Mjollnir allows other orbs when it doesn't proc. I'm not sure about the behavior with other proc chance/CD orbs.

Somewhat related is buff placers: an autoattack can't put multiple debuffs on the target, even if only one of them is an orb effect. A buff placer that's not an orb (e.g. Venomancer's poison attack) can stack with an orb that's not a buff placer (e.g. Lifesteal).

Also, apparently Sange's slow got changed a while back to stack with everything except manual-casted orbs and other maim effects? Fuck, this is always so confusing.



To expand on this: http://www.playdota.com/mechanics/Orb_Effects explains all the relevant information [assuming none of it was changed in transitioning to Dota 2]. It's a rather large chart, but after playing the game and buying relevant items/orbs, you will remember what stacks [or doesn't stack] with what and on what conditions along with the individual item quirks [such as Satanic itself being an orb effect while the active is not an orb -unless this was changed as of late-]. I always found playing the game really to be the best way to remember things as it's when the conflict happens that you realize that it doesn't work [like I didn't realize having a stygian on Medusa was useless as Split Shot completely breaks with it, but I wouldn't have even remembered this through reading].


Is this why a lot of the heores with other orb effects end up getting vlads so they can have lifesteal aura instead?


Yeah, melee heroes can use the benefits of the lifesteal aura while having another orb effect [ranged units have to use a HotD or MoM -though I'm not sure why they would have a MoM-, but ranged units have the benefit of being able to get Skadi & an orb since Skadi is a buff placer for ranged units as opposed to melee units].
dismiss
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United Kingdom3341 Posts
March 08 2012 18:26 GMT
#239
Oh my, Dota is even more complicated and obscure than I thought. o_o

Anyway, I have been watching some streams today and noticed that some people last hit by selecting a minion as an auto attack target and then canceling the animation until the minion is in last hit range by pressing stop. Having problems with lasthitting in Dota I'm wondering if that's a technique that's actually worth learning or more of a crutch since it leaves you so exposed and standing still in one spot for a relatively long amount of time?
Failure to improve posting standards will result in a lengthy ban. I <crms_> !dumb <GeoffAnderson> crmsdota <crms_> damnit
dnastyx
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States2707 Posts
March 08 2012 18:36 GMT
#240
Legit tactic. Pros use it a lot because they can fake out when their autoattack animation starts. This is really important in laning, because if you can get your opponent to commit early or make them miss their reaction timing to last hit or deny a minion, it means more gold for you!

You can do this in LoL too, but it's a lot harder and not really useful because you can't deny with it (so there's no point in faking someone out to get them to attack too early/too late).
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