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Same rules apply, per usual. Please use the appropriate threads (QQ, Brag, Champion, etc) whenever appropriate. Keep the resident Banling content.
Thanks. Happy Gaming. |
United States37500 Posts
@robertdinh, because half of your arguments continue to be anecdotal evidence and you asked for examples:
Season 1: bigfatjiji climbed both "Richard Tracy" (formerly "Dick" before Riot renamed his account) and "Sandy Richards" from 1200 to 2.2K+ (true Plat) before he even started streaming on them. Both accounts had obscene w/l around 50-10 by the time it reached the top 50.
Season 2: Doublelift made his first smurf "Triplelift" himself. "Quadralift" was a friend's account who quit and he leveled it to top 10 of the ladder before he renamed it to Quadra. "Pentalift" was played on with a name change first, so people knew he was on that smurf while he played it. All of Double's smurf were in the top 10 earlier this season, all with 60+ w/l with under 100 games played.
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On March 20 2012 01:37 robertdinh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 01:32 koreasilver wrote:On March 20 2012 01:27 red_ wrote:
Ok it was funny at first, but some of you still arguing with him are just being dumb now. Do you not see how he just morphs his argument to continue argument? He's a troll, his post history is a troll, and he's been a troll in plenty of LoL threads, enough that I know a good amount of our posters here are familiar with him and his troll personality.
It's stupid now, please stop. Well, now I know. edit: I just noticed his sig. Explains a lot, really. It's comical. My sig has to do with natural skill, when people have almost a savant-like understanding of something and it is effortless to them. Sorta like Danny Carey with the drums, or roseanne barr with a sitcom script.
Fairly insignificant and in my opinion, a waste of a life because struggling is the best part.
On March 20 2012 01:37 robertdinh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 01:32 koreasilver wrote:On March 20 2012 01:27 red_ wrote:
Ok it was funny at first, but some of you still arguing with him are just being dumb now. Do you not see how he just morphs his argument to continue argument? He's a troll, his post history is a troll, and he's been a troll in plenty of LoL threads, enough that I know a good amount of our posters here are familiar with him and his troll personality.
It's stupid now, please stop. Well, now I know. edit: I just noticed his sig. Explains a lot, really. It's comical. As far as calling people trolls just because they voice an unpopular opinion, I hope people can get past that at some point. I remember a few months ago people were giving me a ton of crap for saying that mundo was actually really strong and calling me a troll. Now just because he got a few minor buffs and the pros pick him up people have accepted him back into the meta.
It's just a fluke.
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On March 20 2012 01:39 NeoIllusions wrote:
@robertdinh, because half of your arguments continue to be anecdotal evidence and you asked for examples:
Season 1: bigfatjiji climbed both "Richard Tracy" (formerly "Dick" before Riot renamed his account) and "Sandy Richards" from 1200 to 2.2K+ (true Plat) before he even started streaming on them. Both accounts had obscene w/l around 50-10 by the time it reached the top 50.
Season 2: Doublelift made his first smurf "Triplelift" himself. "Quadralift" was a friend's account who quit and he leveled it to top 10 of the ladder before he renamed it to Quadra. "Pentalift" was played on with a name change first, so people knew he was on that smurf while he played it. All of Double's smurf were in the top 10 earlier this season, all with 60+ w/l with under 100 games played.
But were any of them leveled with complete anonymity? I was using streaming simply as one example of why people know some of the top player's alternate accounts, but word can often get out anyway.
Like I know nothing can be ideal, but I would love to see an experiment where a top player starts fresh in ranked on an unknown account, doesn't tell a soul, and shares his data and experiences after he feels his experiment has reached conclusion.
I would actually like to see many high elo players that all play different roles do this, unfortunately it won't happen, but I think the results would be pretty interesting.
On March 20 2012 01:42 Juicyfruit wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 01:37 robertdinh wrote:On March 20 2012 01:32 koreasilver wrote:On March 20 2012 01:27 red_ wrote:
Ok it was funny at first, but some of you still arguing with him are just being dumb now. Do you not see how he just morphs his argument to continue argument? He's a troll, his post history is a troll, and he's been a troll in plenty of LoL threads, enough that I know a good amount of our posters here are familiar with him and his troll personality.
It's stupid now, please stop. Well, now I know. edit: I just noticed his sig. Explains a lot, really. It's comical. My sig has to do with natural skill, when people have almost a savant-like understanding of something and it is effortless to them. Sorta like Danny Carey with the drums, or roseanne barr with a sitcom script. Fairly insignificant and in my opinion, a waste of a life because struggling is the best part. Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 01:37 robertdinh wrote:On March 20 2012 01:32 koreasilver wrote:On March 20 2012 01:27 red_ wrote:
Ok it was funny at first, but some of you still arguing with him are just being dumb now. Do you not see how he just morphs his argument to continue argument? He's a troll, his post history is a troll, and he's been a troll in plenty of LoL threads, enough that I know a good amount of our posters here are familiar with him and his troll personality.
It's stupid now, please stop. Well, now I know. edit: I just noticed his sig. Explains a lot, really. It's comical. As far as calling people trolls just because they voice an unpopular opinion, I hope people can get past that at some point. I remember a few months ago people were giving me a ton of crap for saying that mundo was actually really strong and calling me a troll. Now just because he got a few minor buffs and the pros pick him up people have accepted him back into the meta. It's just a fluke.
It may be insignificant in your opinion, but he was trying to imply some sorta attack upon me based upon my sig, so I was just clarify so that it could not be misconstrued, because I feel very few people can empathize with that sorta natural understanding of things where it just all clicks and there is great clarity.
As far as calling mundo a fluke. That is quite the assumption. In the case of mundo he was never weak, he just didn't fit into the meta that the pros had been perpetuating to all the stream viewers. He didn't gain any disables with his buff, he gained a little bit of attack speed and a shorter cd on his ult, but that isn't such a buff that it should turn him from one of the worst 5v5 champs to a tourney level champ. People just didn't bother to truly understand him intimately, and like snoopeh said on the last sotl, people still may not be playing him correctly. Which I am certain of, he is actually capable of a lot more than the current players are utilizing him for.
It's unfortunate that just because you don't see eye to eye with me on things, that things have to be "flukes" when I am correct.
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On March 20 2012 01:30 NeoIllusions wrote:
Fucking 10+ pages of elo hell bullshit. I am rather peeved.
Seriously guys? Each and everyone one of you have the capacity to ignore bs topics like "elo hell" in General Discussion and just avoid the issue like the plague. But instead, we have people who are trying to get the last word in and it perpetuates for pages on end.
Nice general warning for everyone: "elo hell" is not a topic to even be broached on TeamLiquid's LoL subforum. If you subscribe to the idea, good for you, keep it to yourself. I personally think the idea is simply a mental crutch but I digress.
It's bad enough that we have to deal with GP10 discussions every other month...
you guys cant talk about these dumb topics, but just to bait you, heres my idea
lolololol
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United States47024 Posts
On March 20 2012 01:37 robertdinh wrote:
I remember a few months ago people were giving me a ton of crap for saying that mundo was actually really strong and calling me a troll. Now just because he got a few minor buffs and the pros pick him up people have accepted him back into the meta.
LOL
You can't be serious in saying "I told you so" when 1) you suggested top and/or duo lane Mundo when the ONLY way he's played competitively right now is as a jungler, and 2) Mundo got a fairly significant buff to his jungling ability in between when you had that discussion and now.
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If you think about it the same mental attitudes that would create elo hell would create the lack of an ability to lose an argument.
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On March 20 2012 01:37 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 01:19 ManyCookies wrote:+ Show Spoiler + Honestly, the people that whine about "elo hell" just seem like bad players Since people are trying to argue that the system is pretty accurate. Shit like this completely un-constructive. The first one is just an insult. The second is information we're all already aware of, with a completely pointless insinuation that they're wrong. Stop it.If you want to actually go somewhere with this, do some god damn binomial calculations, plug in some numbers (win rates, number of games, etc.), see the percentage of players who would be expected to win 50% games or less. It doesn't have to be a perfect model (Ice Cream) to see general trends or if the numbers are in the ballpark of significance. http://www.stat.tamu.edu/~west/applets/binomialdemo.htmlHere, I'll do a few: 55% win chance, 50 games. 19% of people 50% or below. 55% win chance, 100 games. 13% below. 55% win chance, 150 games. 9.3% below. 55% win chance, 200 games. 6.8% below. 55% win chance, roughly 260 games. 5% below or 2 SD. 60% win chance, roughly 55 games. 5% below or 2SD. 65% win chance (2:1 win ratio), roughly 20 games. 5% below or 2 SD. 60% win chance, 100 games. 2.7% below. 60% win chance, 150 games. .5% chance. I'm calling 5% of players stuck as a "significant" amount. As the win ratio increases (1:1, 1.22:1, 1.5:1, and ~2:1), the stuck rate goes down pretty damn fast. Is it likely you're get stuck? No, and most people claiming that are full of shit. Is there a significant amount of players who are expected to be stuck for a decently large amount of games? Yes. Any questions? Your model is overestimating the "stuck rate" because it's not accounting for the fact that if your Elo drops, your win rate should go up because the difference in skill between your and your opponents rises. As I said a couple pages ago, the system attempts to be self-correcting--as the disparity between your true Elo and and your current Elo gets large, your expected winrate similarly gets larger or smaller to correct you back toward the Elo where you have a 50% winrate.
Fair enough. We could assume P(x) is an overall weighted average of the win rates in a normal ELO variance of a player, but that's also a pretty iffy simplification. Overall, you're right, that effect would decrease the variance of the model. All the same, the numbers are in the ballpark, so to speak.
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aight, let's knock it off and start talking about how Shen probably isn't really all that good.
he's a strong champion, but after the hotfix shit, he's not OP and should be falling out of the insta-ban, insta-pick status over the next few weeks.
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On March 20 2012 01:48 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 01:37 robertdinh wrote:
I remember a few months ago people were giving me a ton of crap for saying that mundo was actually really strong and calling me a troll. Now just because he got a few minor buffs and the pros pick him up people have accepted him back into the meta. LOL You can't be serious in saying "I told you so" when 1) you suggested top and/or duo lane Mundo when the ONLY way he's played competitively right now is as a jungler, and 2) Mundo got a fairly significant buff to his jungling ability in between when you had that discussion and now.
Suggestion doesn't mean exclusion of him jungling, people have been jungling on him for ages. As I mentioned before he did get buffs, though I did forget to mention the burning agony buff, but they aren't so significant that he should go from one of the least played 5v5 champs to a tournament level pick pretty consistently.
He was never a slow jungler, and they didn't change anything that makes him such a desirable pick right now (his ganks with cleaver)
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Shen is only op in the sense that he is a different version of healbait imo
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On March 20 2012 01:49 Mogwai wrote:
aight, let's knock it off and start talking about how Shen probably isn't really all that good.
he's a strong champion, but after the hotfix shit, he's not OP and should be falling out of the insta-ban, insta-pick status over the next few weeks.
I feel Shen is in the same boat as Shaco and Rammus. They're not necessarily overpowered , but they do something that significantly changes the state of the game. Or failing that, they're just plain annoying to deal with.
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United States37500 Posts
On March 20 2012 01:49 Mogwai wrote:
aight, let's knock it off and start talking about how Shen probably isn't really all that good.
he's a strong champion, but after the hotfix shit, he's not OP and should be falling out of the insta-ban, insta-pick status over the next few weeks.
We talking about solo q here? He's still a beast in lane and the reason Shen is ever banned is always because of his ally-saving ulti.
The reason why he fell out of f(l)avor months ago was because his laning blew and most people couldn't play him as a support besides Laoching.
I still say he's going to be mainstay for at least another tournament (IPL4). Banned or picked status.
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On March 20 2012 01:49 Mogwai wrote:
aight, let's knock it off and start talking about how Shen probably isn't really all that good.
he's a strong champion, but after the hotfix shit, he's not OP and should be falling out of the insta-ban, insta-pick status over the next few weeks.
He is too annoying to play against. Even if he isnt too strong from a direct power standpoint, his ultimate is too good to bother trying to counter in solo q. Its just not worth it.
Add him to the list of Shaco and Rammus.
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On March 20 2012 01:43 robertdinh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 01:39 NeoIllusions wrote:
@robertdinh, because half of your arguments continue to be anecdotal evidence and you asked for examples:
Season 1: bigfatjiji climbed both "Richard Tracy" (formerly "Dick" before Riot renamed his account) and "Sandy Richards" from 1200 to 2.2K+ (true Plat) before he even started streaming on them. Both accounts had obscene w/l around 50-10 by the time it reached the top 50.
Season 2: Doublelift made his first smurf "Triplelift" himself. "Quadralift" was a friend's account who quit and he leveled it to top 10 of the ladder before he renamed it to Quadra. "Pentalift" was played on with a name change first, so people knew he was on that smurf while he played it. All of Double's smurf were in the top 10 earlier this season, all with 60+ w/l with under 100 games played. But were any of them leveled with complete anonymity? I was using streaming simply as one example of why people know some of the top player's alternate accounts, but word can often get out anyway. Like I know nothing can be ideal, but I would love to see an experiment where a top player starts fresh in ranked on an unknown account, doesn't tell a soul, and shares his data and experiences after he feels his experiment has reached conclusion. I would actually like to see many high elo players that all play different roles do this, unfortunately it won't happen, but I think the results would be pretty interesting. Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 01:42 Juicyfruit wrote:On March 20 2012 01:37 robertdinh wrote:On March 20 2012 01:32 koreasilver wrote:On March 20 2012 01:27 red_ wrote:
Ok it was funny at first, but some of you still arguing with him are just being dumb now. Do you not see how he just morphs his argument to continue argument? He's a troll, his post history is a troll, and he's been a troll in plenty of LoL threads, enough that I know a good amount of our posters here are familiar with him and his troll personality.
It's stupid now, please stop. Well, now I know. edit: I just noticed his sig. Explains a lot, really. It's comical. My sig has to do with natural skill, when people have almost a savant-like understanding of something and it is effortless to them. Sorta like Danny Carey with the drums, or roseanne barr with a sitcom script. Fairly insignificant and in my opinion, a waste of a life because struggling is the best part. On March 20 2012 01:37 robertdinh wrote:On March 20 2012 01:32 koreasilver wrote:On March 20 2012 01:27 red_ wrote:
Ok it was funny at first, but some of you still arguing with him are just being dumb now. Do you not see how he just morphs his argument to continue argument? He's a troll, his post history is a troll, and he's been a troll in plenty of LoL threads, enough that I know a good amount of our posters here are familiar with him and his troll personality.
It's stupid now, please stop. Well, now I know. edit: I just noticed his sig. Explains a lot, really. It's comical. As far as calling people trolls just because they voice an unpopular opinion, I hope people can get past that at some point. I remember a few months ago people were giving me a ton of crap for saying that mundo was actually really strong and calling me a troll. Now just because he got a few minor buffs and the pros pick him up people have accepted him back into the meta. It's just a fluke. It may be insignificant in your opinion, but he was trying to imply some sorta attack upon me based upon my sig, so I was just clarify so that it could not be misconstrued, because I feel very few people can empathize with that sorta natural understanding of things where it just all clicks and there is great clarity. As far as calling mundo a fluke. That is quite the assumption. In the case of mundo he was never weak, he just didn't fit into the meta that the pros had been perpetuating to all the stream viewers. He didn't gain any disables with his buff, he gained a little bit of attack speed and a shorter cd on his ult, but that isn't such a buff that it should turn him from one of the worst 5v5 champs to a tourney level champ. People just didn't bother to truly understand him intimately, and like snoopeh said on the last sotl, people still may not be playing him correctly. Which I am certain of, he is actually capable of a lot more than the current players are utilizing him for. It's unfortunate that just because you don't see eye to eye with me on things, that things have to be "flukes" when I am correct.
I didn't say whether or not you were correct or what your rationalization was. None of that matter; it's simply a fluke if you're correct.
As for the first point, it's not in my opinion that it's insignificant. It just is.
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United States47024 Posts
On March 20 2012 01:51 robertdinh wrote:
Suggestion doesn't mean exclusion of him jungling, people have been jungling on him for ages. As I mentioned before he did get buffs, though I did forget to mention the burning agony buff, but they aren't so significant that he should go from one of the least played 5v5 champs to a tournament level pick pretty consistently.
You're ignoring the effects of the jungle revamp. The jungle revamp hugely increased the value of W-based builds making him one of the fastest junglers in the game. The buff also made that sustainable, which is huge.
So yes, I would argue that the changes that happened in that time ARE that significant.
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Laning vs Shen still one of the most annoying things on earth.
always throw knife never not throw knife
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On March 20 2012 01:54 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 01:51 robertdinh wrote:
Suggestion doesn't mean exclusion of him jungling, people have been jungling on him for ages. As I mentioned before he did get buffs, though I did forget to mention the burning agony buff, but they aren't so significant that he should go from one of the least played 5v5 champs to a tournament level pick pretty consistently. You're ignoring the effects of the jungle revamp. The jungle revamp hugely increased the value of W-based builds making him one of the fastest junglers in the game. The buff also made that sustainable, which is huge. So yes, I would argue that the changes that happened in that time ARE that significant.
Mundo has never had trouble sustaining in jungle though, if the revamp was that beneficial to him they would have been trying him earlier, they waited until riot threw some buffs his way to get him back on the radar.
I am not saying the buffs aren't good, they are obviously buffs and increase his effectiveness throughout the course of a game, but as many top players have said in interviews, i think chauster said recently, there are many champs that are probably very viable, people just don't put in the time to practice and master them.
Mundo was in that position of being grossly misunderstood. I mean hell, there are still people that stereotype him as some sorta champ that is rendered completely useless by ignite.
The people who have been using him in tourneys, still haven't even mastered him. Imagine if they had mastered him before he was ever buffed, they'd be playing him more effectively than they are now without mastering him but with the buffs.
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I have a huge headache from reading the last 10 or so pages :3
Going off on a completely different tangent, would any of the TL ''support players'' give me a hand?
I've recently started playing support for a 5s team and I feel like I could use some tips on lane
matchups, warding and generals of the sort. I play the bot lane in ranked now whether it be ad carry or support,
and I feel like just in general, playing bot exclusively has helped me understand a greater deal about the lane, but
I still make blatant lane mistakes when there is a matchup I dont understand.
Example just yesterday me and my duo partner decided to be aggressive as Janna corki vs sona ezrael at level 3 and it ended up with us getting our asses handed on a platter lol. Is this a positional mistake of being hit by ezrael q or is the lane just stronger at that certain level.
Feel free to talk to me ingame as well as in the thread. I feel like there is alot of things to be picked up from watching other people play but support streams are rare :3
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
Geez, I return in several hours and you're still arguing with this troll.
So, when is the patch due?
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TO DISTRACT US FROM THE DUMB ARGUMENT AND TROLLING...
How do I give my solo queue teammates advice without sounding like a commanding douche?
I mean, when I see the Alistar constantly overextended without wards or the Graves front and center in every teamfights that gets caught and killed instantly, I tell them "X, can you please top overextending/getting caught/whatever", but they either keep doing the same thing or they tell me to stfu or something similar
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EPT
