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Same rules apply, per usual. Please use the appropriate threads (QQ, Brag, Champion, etc) whenever appropriate. Keep the resident Banling content.
Thanks. Happy Gaming. |
On March 17 2012 04:57 spinesheath wrote:
Just remember that if you keep blue for yourself, you better make some damn good use of it. If your jungle can do more with blue than your mid (for ANY reason), then it's better on your jungler. If your any-champion-in-any-lane will help the team the most by having blue buff, give it to him.
Stop being stuck in such closed mindsets. It's not either jungle or mid. Rule of thumb, sure. But nothing more than that.
point taken. it is not binary, M5 used it on Urgot ad and it proved extremely strong.
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Cassio with 2nd blue and not having blue are like two completely different champions. The difference in pressure is absolutely staggering for that stage in the game.
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The very large majority of the time the mid can do a lot more with blue than you can as a jungler. Junglers love blue but the difference between having a mid who can push fast enough to roam around and having a jungler who can clear and gank abit easier is huge, since having 2 roamers is better than 1.
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On March 17 2012 04:54 Qualm wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2012 04:50 mr_tolkien wrote:On March 17 2012 04:46 jcarlsoniv wrote:On March 17 2012 04:46 Alaric wrote:On March 17 2012 04:36 CeriseCherries wrote:On March 17 2012 04:30 dnastyx wrote:
Loco: Do you understand what he's saying?
Saint: Yes.
OGN: "Come here"
Saint: Okay
OGN: "Go away"
Saint: That's mean!
OGN: "Give me blue"
Saint: No, I don't understand. LOL. Well lots of junglers dont understand what "give me blue" means -_____- Most mids don't understand that the blue is the jungler's, and that he merely agrees to lose exp and gold to pass it to them. Well now that's just crazy talk. Not at all. The jungler controls the jungle, this why he carries smite. If giving the blue to the mid laner won't achieve anything, you shouldn't give him. EDIT : On March 17 2012 04:49 Qualm wrote:On March 17 2012 04:46 Alaric wrote:On March 17 2012 04:36 CeriseCherries wrote:On March 17 2012 04:30 dnastyx wrote:
Loco: Do you understand what he's saying?
Saint: Yes.
OGN: "Come here"
Saint: Okay
OGN: "Go away"
Saint: That's mean!
OGN: "Give me blue"
Saint: No, I don't understand. LOL. Well lots of junglers dont understand what "give me blue" means -_____- Most mids don't understand that the blue is the jungler's, and that he merely agrees to lose exp and gold to pass it to them. Except that a mid that doesn't get 2nd blue pretty much loses lane unless he gets all the ganks... If you want to give the jungler blue then that's fine but you need a middle lane that's manaless. Plenty of laners don't need blue at all if they go 2 Drings or Cata. Morgana, Annie, Swain, Karthus, and ofc all the manaless champs. Even Cassio can do very well without blue since QW clears very fast, she can afford to back between waves. Most of those champs need blue LATE GAME though, but that's something else. Annie I agree, Morg risks getting run over unless she goes RoA (which isn't optimal at all on her), Swain loses to other sustain heros without blue, Karthus can do ok. Q max Cassio can do alright but E max Cassio really goes oom too quickly without blue.
what. swain definitely does not need blue to stay in lane or win his lane. his passive is amazing mana management. Swain only really needs blue for teamfights where he'll be staying in his ulti for protracted amounts of time. In lane, Swain does just fine without blue. That's why HSGG can afford to take Swain top all the time.
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On March 17 2012 05:04 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2012 04:54 Qualm wrote:On March 17 2012 04:50 mr_tolkien wrote:On March 17 2012 04:46 jcarlsoniv wrote:On March 17 2012 04:46 Alaric wrote:On March 17 2012 04:36 CeriseCherries wrote:On March 17 2012 04:30 dnastyx wrote:
Loco: Do you understand what he's saying?
Saint: Yes.
OGN: "Come here"
Saint: Okay
OGN: "Go away"
Saint: That's mean!
OGN: "Give me blue"
Saint: No, I don't understand. LOL. Well lots of junglers dont understand what "give me blue" means -_____- Most mids don't understand that the blue is the jungler's, and that he merely agrees to lose exp and gold to pass it to them. Well now that's just crazy talk. Not at all. The jungler controls the jungle, this why he carries smite. If giving the blue to the mid laner won't achieve anything, you shouldn't give him. EDIT : On March 17 2012 04:49 Qualm wrote:On March 17 2012 04:46 Alaric wrote:On March 17 2012 04:36 CeriseCherries wrote:On March 17 2012 04:30 dnastyx wrote:
Loco: Do you understand what he's saying?
Saint: Yes.
OGN: "Come here"
Saint: Okay
OGN: "Go away"
Saint: That's mean!
OGN: "Give me blue"
Saint: No, I don't understand. LOL. Well lots of junglers dont understand what "give me blue" means -_____- Most mids don't understand that the blue is the jungler's, and that he merely agrees to lose exp and gold to pass it to them. Except that a mid that doesn't get 2nd blue pretty much loses lane unless he gets all the ganks... If you want to give the jungler blue then that's fine but you need a middle lane that's manaless. Plenty of laners don't need blue at all if they go 2 Drings or Cata. Morgana, Annie, Swain, Karthus, and ofc all the manaless champs. Even Cassio can do very well without blue since QW clears very fast, she can afford to back between waves. Most of those champs need blue LATE GAME though, but that's something else. Annie I agree, Morg risks getting run over unless she goes RoA (which isn't optimal at all on her), Swain loses to other sustain heros without blue, Karthus can do ok. Q max Cassio can do alright but E max Cassio really goes oom too quickly without blue. what. swain definitely does not need blue to stay in lane or win his lane. his passive is amazing mana management. Swain only really needs blue for teamfights where he'll be staying in his ulti for protracted amounts of time. In lane, Swain does just fine without blue. That's why HSGG can afford to take Swain top all the time.
Are you sure? I don't play mid that often, but the times I've been against Swain he's always seemed a complete push-over without blue and incredibly easy to harrass even off the lane, whereas with blue he's untouchable. I definitely think he needs blue.
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Swain doesn't need blue the same sense Cassio doesn't need blue. If you're just farming in lane, sure, you'll always manage, especially against someone without blue. But mid is expected to do more than last hit at tower.
If you don't give up blue to certain champions you better have a damn good reason. And it could be as simple as "this Ahri sucks" or "I think he'll feed," but all things being equal most mana-using mids will use blue better than most junglers.
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On March 17 2012 05:04 Ryuu314 wrote:
what. swain definitely does not need blue to stay in lane or win his lane. his passive is amazing mana management. Swain only really needs blue for teamfights where he'll be staying in his ulti for protracted amounts of time. In lane, Swain does just fine without blue. That's why HSGG can afford to take Swain top all the time.
Reposting from last page:
He can manage in lane with a Catalyst, but he needs to manage his agression and stagger trades between intervals of last hitting minions for mana. A Swain with Blue, however, can just constantly trade (and pretty much always win said trade) non-stop. He's still functional and strong without Blue, but absolutely terrifying with it. Same thing with Cass; yes, she's still scary without Blue, but you get some breathing room. With blue, she just completely forces people out of lane.
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Yeah, Swain does fine without second blue, but the more blues he gets, the better. lrn2lasthit as Swain and you pretty much have a blue in terms of mana regen.
3rd blue goes to Swain, no questions asked. Objectives start to become more important, leading to an increased chance of teamfights. Swain with blue and without blue is huge. You have blue, you get to leave your ult on 10x as long as without blue. I can't even describe how invincible I've felt just walking into their team during a team fight and killing their carrys while healing everything back up.
The thing that gets me is when I have a jungler that will not give me blue when enemy has blue. Its just so retarded.
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On March 17 2012 05:04 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2012 04:54 Qualm wrote:On March 17 2012 04:50 mr_tolkien wrote:On March 17 2012 04:46 jcarlsoniv wrote:On March 17 2012 04:46 Alaric wrote:On March 17 2012 04:36 CeriseCherries wrote:On March 17 2012 04:30 dnastyx wrote:
Loco: Do you understand what he's saying?
Saint: Yes.
OGN: "Come here"
Saint: Okay
OGN: "Go away"
Saint: That's mean!
OGN: "Give me blue"
Saint: No, I don't understand. LOL. Well lots of junglers dont understand what "give me blue" means -_____- Most mids don't understand that the blue is the jungler's, and that he merely agrees to lose exp and gold to pass it to them. Well now that's just crazy talk. Not at all. The jungler controls the jungle, this why he carries smite. If giving the blue to the mid laner won't achieve anything, you shouldn't give him. EDIT : On March 17 2012 04:49 Qualm wrote:On March 17 2012 04:46 Alaric wrote:On March 17 2012 04:36 CeriseCherries wrote:On March 17 2012 04:30 dnastyx wrote:
Loco: Do you understand what he's saying?
Saint: Yes.
OGN: "Come here"
Saint: Okay
OGN: "Go away"
Saint: That's mean!
OGN: "Give me blue"
Saint: No, I don't understand. LOL. Well lots of junglers dont understand what "give me blue" means -_____- Most mids don't understand that the blue is the jungler's, and that he merely agrees to lose exp and gold to pass it to them. Except that a mid that doesn't get 2nd blue pretty much loses lane unless he gets all the ganks... If you want to give the jungler blue then that's fine but you need a middle lane that's manaless. Plenty of laners don't need blue at all if they go 2 Drings or Cata. Morgana, Annie, Swain, Karthus, and ofc all the manaless champs. Even Cassio can do very well without blue since QW clears very fast, she can afford to back between waves. Most of those champs need blue LATE GAME though, but that's something else. Annie I agree, Morg risks getting run over unless she goes RoA (which isn't optimal at all on her), Swain loses to other sustain heros without blue, Karthus can do ok. Q max Cassio can do alright but E max Cassio really goes oom too quickly without blue. what. swain definitely does not need blue to stay in lane or win his lane. his passive is amazing mana management. Swain only really needs blue for teamfights where he'll be staying in his ulti for protracted amounts of time. In lane, Swain does just fine without blue. That's why HSGG can afford to take Swain top all the time.
Swain without blue can pull thought the lane and farm alright. Swain with blue actually has a chance of winning the lane and/or pushing the other laner in and then ganking.
AFK farming is acceptable top but mid it's also a question of who puts out more pressure on the map.
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United States47024 Posts
On March 17 2012 05:08 ManyCookies wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2012 05:04 Ryuu314 wrote:
what. swain definitely does not need blue to stay in lane or win his lane. his passive is amazing mana management. Swain only really needs blue for teamfights where he'll be staying in his ulti for protracted amounts of time. In lane, Swain does just fine without blue. That's why HSGG can afford to take Swain top all the time. Reposting from last page: He can manage in lane with a Catalyst, but he needs to manage his agression and stagger trades between intervals of last hitting minions for mana. A Swain with Blue, however, can just constantly trade (and pretty much always win said trade) non-stop. He's still functional and strong without Blue, but absolutely terrifying with it. Same thing with Cass; yes, she's still scary without Blue, but you get some breathing room. With blue, she just completely forces people out of lane.
And if she's just using blue to win one lane, that's not getting as much out of it compared to a jungler that, with faster clearing, gets more time to affect all 3 lanes and enemy jungle.
I'm with TwoDown on this one. I'm all for giving up blues if the mid AP actually uses it for something other than stalemating a lane. But 90% of mids don't do that.
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There are definitely junglers that benefit from that 2nd blue. WW and Skarner especially love timing that 2nd blue right around 6 and ganking every lane with ult on cd.
That being said, most mids can use blue better than the jungler. This is assuming arranged teams. If you're in solo queue then you make the call to make the most of your team, and since you have a retard in mid most games it's not unreasonable to keep blue. But as a jungler, if I give mid blue, then he's much more likely to be responsive to calls I make involving ganks, buff/dragon control, and general pings I send out, which is ultimately what I care about.
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An interesting thought: if a mid is not going to be able to counterpush a lane fast enough to be mobile even if they have blue, why bother giving it to them?
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You're basically saying "f mid, I'll trade a lost mid lane for won top/bot."
If keeping blue accomplishes that, then go for it.
EDIT: The other mid is going to get blue, push, and roam. So keep in mind you'll fight some 2v3's top and 3v4's bot and at drag.
I really hope they change blue buff soon. It's so stupid.
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Tear charging on Ryze?
edit: also opposing blue
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On March 17 2012 05:18 Two_DoWn wrote:
An interesting thought: if a mid is not going to be able to counterpush a lane fast enough to be mobile even if they have blue, why bother giving it to them?
Um, because you don't want the other mid to roam because they got blue and pushed the lane?
Why does everyone here always write stuff like "because your mid is usually a retard anyway" -- how do you guys end up being amazingly smart junglers stuck in the same ELO as completely retarded mid players?
I'm a bit confused by this idea that all junglers make best use of their blue while the mids on the same team mostly are too stupid to roam. I've seen just as many games where the jungler gets blue without making good use of it (doesn't gank more, counterjungle, help failing lanes, or feeds it to the other team).
I'm not being sarcastic, I really don't understand why everyone talks as if they are always great junglers stuck with terribly bad mids. Unless TL has a monopoly on overeducated but underachieving junglers, the math doesn't work out. 
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United States47024 Posts
On March 17 2012 05:23 bmn wrote:
Um, because you don't want the other mid to roam because they got blue and pushed the lane?
Except there are matchups where the enemy blue will have creep-clearing/roaming power advantage even WITH blue parity. In which case the blue accomplishes little more than to let the AP have an easier time lasthitting under tower.
Like, if you're playing against Cassio as Ryze, it doesn't matter if you have blue. You're still going to get your shit shoved to tower every wave.
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On March 17 2012 05:23 bmn wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2012 05:18 Two_DoWn wrote:
An interesting thought: if a mid is not going to be able to counterpush a lane fast enough to be mobile even if they have blue, why bother giving it to them? I'm not being sarcastic, I really don't understand why everyone talks as if they are always great junglers stuck with terribly bad mids. Unless TL has a monopoly on overeducated but underachieving junglers, the math doesn't work out.
Everyone thinks they're the best player on the team. So those who jungle naturally assumes a herpa derpa mid lane while thinking if they can clear wraiths a little faster by mashing Q an extra time, then it's worth it.
Meanwhile those who play mid think blue should belong to them by default since they can outright win lane or gank other lanes with it, and not having blue is like playing top lane with the other jungler camping you the whole time.
I jungle more than I mid, and imo if you're just agreeable and do what's best for the team then people will actually follow you around controlling ganks and objectives, which wins more games than anything else. And that usually (but not always) means giving up blue.
On March 17 2012 05:26 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2012 05:23 bmn wrote:
Um, because you don't want the other mid to roam because they got blue and pushed the lane? Except there are matchups where the enemy blue will have creep-clearing/roaming power advantage even WITH blue parity.
Yeah, so you have 2 options.
1) Give blue to your mid. He counterpushes slightly slower, so can only blow up the wave after the other guy (say Sion) ran away to gank. He then can choose to keep pushing and damage the tower, or roam slightly later and either gank the other lane or countergank the same lane.
2) Keep blue. Your mid is permanently stuck last hitting at tower, and Sion can run top/bot, gank, and run back losing 0 creep and tower health. He also spends his whole mana bar last hitting. As a jungler you gain some CDR and faster clear speeds.
Your call on what's better.
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On March 17 2012 05:23 bmn wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2012 05:18 Two_DoWn wrote:
An interesting thought: if a mid is not going to be able to counterpush a lane fast enough to be mobile even if they have blue, why bother giving it to them? Um, because you don't want the other mid to roam because they got blue and pushed the lane? Why does everyone here always write stuff like "because your mid is usually a retard anyway" -- how do you guys end up being amazingly smart junglers stuck in the same ELO as completely retarded mid players? I'm a bit confused by this idea that all junglers make best use of their blue while the mids on the same team mostly are too stupid to roam. I've seen just as many games where the jungler gets blue without making good use of it (doesn't gank more, counterjungle, help failing lanes, or feeds it to the other team). I'm not being sarcastic, I really don't understand why everyone talks as if they are always great junglers stuck with terribly bad mids. Unless TL has a monopoly on overeducated but underachieving junglers, the math doesn't work out.
The point I am trying to make is that in a case of, say, Cassio vs Morgana, it doesnt matter if Morg has blue- Cassio is going to be able to out push Morg. She is going to be able to push the lane and roam, at a speed morgana cannot match. So why do we still hand off the buff?
And everyone below tournament play screws up using blue properly most of the time. Mostly because it is really hard to roam in solo q because communication is so bad. Its just one of those common misplays. You know the games where the mid is everywhere, killing every lane, and the game is over by 20 minutes? Those are the mids who know how to use blue.
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On March 17 2012 05:23 bmn wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2012 05:18 Two_DoWn wrote:
An interesting thought: if a mid is not going to be able to counterpush a lane fast enough to be mobile even if they have blue, why bother giving it to them? Um, because you don't want the other mid to roam because they got blue and pushed the lane? Why does everyone here always write stuff like "because your mid is usually a retard anyway" -- how do you guys end up being amazingly smart junglers stuck in the same ELO as completely retarded mid players? I'm a bit confused by this idea that all junglers make best use of their blue while the mids on the same team mostly are too stupid to roam. I've seen just as many games where the jungler gets blue without making good use of it (doesn't gank more, counterjungle, help failing lanes, or feeds it to the other team). I'm not being sarcastic, I really don't understand why everyone talks as if they are always great junglers stuck with terribly bad mids. Unless TL has a monopoly on overeducated but underachieving junglers, the math doesn't work out.
Speaking strictly for myself, I'm stuck in the shitty 1200-1350 ELO and it really is common. So many morons pick mid and then fail so hard.
Usually I look at their deaths+CS to see if they will hold on to it. Since so many people are shit awful and have like 40 CS by the 10 minute mark, I typically take it. But if I see a mid that is completely competent (I do get these, they're less common than the morons) I give them blue without hesitation.
I guess I'm more on the side of mids getting the blue because I don't really play junglers that are mana hungry at level 5-8. Udyr+Trundle can both do fine without it after the first few levels.
Dunno. I think it would be better to communicate with your team when picking. Obviously this isn't all that possible in solo ranked q, but ehh.
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On March 17 2012 05:08 ManyCookies wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2012 05:04 Ryuu314 wrote:
what. swain definitely does not need blue to stay in lane or win his lane. his passive is amazing mana management. Swain only really needs blue for teamfights where he'll be staying in his ulti for protracted amounts of time. In lane, Swain does just fine without blue. That's why HSGG can afford to take Swain top all the time. Reposting from last page: He can manage in lane with a Catalyst, but he needs to manage his agression and stagger trades between intervals of last hitting minions for mana. A Swain with Blue, however, can just constantly trade (and pretty much always win said trade) non-stop. He's still functional and strong without Blue, but absolutely terrifying with it. Same thing with Cass; yes, she's still scary without Blue, but you get some breathing room. With blue, she just completely forces people out of lane.
Well I mostly play swain top, mid might be different. But from what I understand Swain with blue can afford to be much more aggressive and such, but that's true for all mana champions. I was more responding to when Qualm said Swain gets demolished by other sustain laners without blue, which is simply false.
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EPT
