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Heed these two simple warnings. It will help make our GD a better place. Consider this fair notice to all users. Warning will be dished out this patch. Thanks. Neo, 31.01.12 |
United States47024 Posts
On February 02 2012 07:59 jcarlsoniv wrote:
It's actually quite interesting having played with both Monte and T_D frequently. I find Monte plays more like OddOne (more of a support jungler) while Two_Down plays extremely similarly to SV (carry jungler, only ganks when it's worth it).
Playing A LOT with T_D, I've learned to be stronger and exchange better in lane. He needs to be able to rely on me to hold my lane well without ganks, and I need to rely on him to help the derpy solo q-ers win their lanes. When either of us struggle or fail, it's extremely evident in the turn out of the game.
I've said this for months in this whole "carry jungle" vs. "support jungle" discussion--at every level, people turn this into an issue of playstyle, when it really shouldn't be. It's 100% an issue of team composition. If you've got 3 carry laners, you need to play a support jungle, plain and simple. Getting 4 carry champions farmed is just too taxing on your team's farm distribution, and unless you're lucky and get a good early-game lead, it gets rough for you midgame when everyone wants to get farm, but you can only get 2-3 heroes to their core items in time for important fights. Conversely, you can pick a carry jungle when your AP mid or top can carry the midgame tempo, and can afford to cede farm to a jungler while playing a more supportive role.
On February 02 2012 08:58 wei2coolman wrote:So, I don't get why people don't get more cs.... I'm like a huge huge proponent of farming > killing. Was just in a game 57 minutes long. I had highest cs on team with 320, the 2nd highest was 250. Simply unacceptable. Even bad farming from me, and I still somehow out farm everyone else on my team, I feel too many people undervalue split pushing a lot... 
In a 57 minute game, it's very likely that one of the teams doesn't want it to get to lategame, because they have worse lategame scaling, and would have wanted the game to be over 30 minutes ago. If your whole team is trying to force a fight, and you're off farming at 40 minutes, you should at the very least take a second to re-evaluate whether that's the correct decision with the team-comp in question.
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Tommorow at 7pm EST League of Lessons is going to have dyrus giving djWheat a lesson in league.
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=1777058
Hey guys, over the last week or so I've released www.LeagueOfLessons.net and done a 100$ giveaway, in an effort to create a coaching scene for LoL. The goal has been to create an alternative revenue source for coaches as well as another educational resource for aspiring players. A lot of people mentioned how they were wary to schedule a session before knowing the product, so I'm proud to announce that Dyrus will be doing a live and public lesson with the amazing djWHEAT who's one of the premiere pillars of E-Sports. At a random point during the lesson wheat will announce that it's time for the giveaway, which will require the listeners to do something very quickly - so make sure to tune in and pay attention! : ) I really really hope that this will show the possibilities and value of coaching, and maybe you'll learn something! Thanks for reading, and good luck at winning the giveaway!
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On February 02 2012 10:06 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2012 07:59 jcarlsoniv wrote:
It's actually quite interesting having played with both Monte and T_D frequently. I find Monte plays more like OddOne (more of a support jungler) while Two_Down plays extremely similarly to SV (carry jungler, only ganks when it's worth it).
Playing A LOT with T_D, I've learned to be stronger and exchange better in lane. He needs to be able to rely on me to hold my lane well without ganks, and I need to rely on him to help the derpy solo q-ers win their lanes. When either of us struggle or fail, it's extremely evident in the turn out of the game. I've said this for months in this whole "carry jungle" vs. "support jungle" discussion--at every level, people turn this into an issue of playstyle, when it really shouldn't be. It's 100% an issue of team composition. If you've got 3 carry laners, you need to play a support jungle, plain and simple. Getting 4 carry champions farmed is just too taxing on your team's farm distribution, and unless you're lucky and get a good early-game lead, it gets rough for you midgame when everyone wants to get farm, but you can only get 2-3 heroes to their core items in time for important fights. Conversely, you can pick a carry jungle when your AP mid or top can carry the midgame tempo, and can afford to cede farm to a jungler while playing a more supportive role.
Absolutely agreed. It reflects in the performance of CLG vs TSM as well. SV can play a carry jungler in part because of HSGG's afk-farm/push-top mentality, while OddOne can often suffer because TRM has had poor performance lately top, and thus cannot carry as well in a place where TSM has a support jungler.
I'm not sure which style is better, because I've had both successes and failures with both T_D's and Monte's playstyles, but both ways have their merits and downfalls.
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On February 02 2012 10:06 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2012 07:59 jcarlsoniv wrote:
It's actually quite interesting having played with both Monte and T_D frequently. I find Monte plays more like OddOne (more of a support jungler) while Two_Down plays extremely similarly to SV (carry jungler, only ganks when it's worth it).
Playing A LOT with T_D, I've learned to be stronger and exchange better in lane. He needs to be able to rely on me to hold my lane well without ganks, and I need to rely on him to help the derpy solo q-ers win their lanes. When either of us struggle or fail, it's extremely evident in the turn out of the game. I've said this for months in this whole "carry jungle" vs. "support jungle" discussion--at every level, people turn this into an issue of playstyle, when it really shouldn't be. It's 100% an issue of team composition. If you've got 3 carry laners, you need to play a support jungle, plain and simple. Getting 4 carry champions farmed is just too taxing on your team's farm distribution, and unless you're lucky and get a good early-game lead, it gets rough for you midgame when everyone wants to get farm, but you can only get 2-3 heroes to their core items in time for important fights. Conversely, you can pick a carry jungle when your AP mid or top can carry the midgame tempo, and can afford to cede farm to a jungler while playing a more supportive role.
ehh, I dont think this is quite the case. Even on Maokai, Alistar, or Lee Sin Saint maximizes his farm and ganks less than TOO will. Like TOO ganks CONSTANTLY, at the expense of his own jungle, whereas SV always farms first and ganks second. He ganks MORE on strong ganking characters, but there is still a large difference between the two.
It just doesnt seem that way because SV is very good at selecting ganks that are going to be successful.
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So it seems to me like Zeke's Herald is actually pretty good for a support-ish jungler. Been building it first on Sejuani, and I could see it on say rammus/maokai/etc. Lets you sustain yourself in the jungle alright, helps killing buff camps that you can't AoE instantly, gives a lot of damage for ganking top/bot or dragon fights, and gives you that bit of hp/cdr which is also nice.
Re: Sejuani she actually feels pretty fun but is in serious need of a spammable ms steroid a la udyr/skarner/shyvana. She'd be instantly god tier if she had one (so maybe it would have to be fairly small) but right now if you cc her once when she ganks she can't get to you before you get to tower w/o her Q, which is on a looong cooldown.
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On February 02 2012 10:06 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2012 07:59 jcarlsoniv wrote:
It's actually quite interesting having played with both Monte and T_D frequently. I find Monte plays more like OddOne (more of a support jungler) while Two_Down plays extremely similarly to SV (carry jungler, only ganks when it's worth it).
Playing A LOT with T_D, I've learned to be stronger and exchange better in lane. He needs to be able to rely on me to hold my lane well without ganks, and I need to rely on him to help the derpy solo q-ers win their lanes. When either of us struggle or fail, it's extremely evident in the turn out of the game. I've said this for months in this whole "carry jungle" vs. "support jungle" discussion--at every level, people turn this into an issue of playstyle, when it really shouldn't be. It's 100% an issue of team composition. If you've got 3 carry laners, you need to play a support jungle, plain and simple. Getting 4 carry champions farmed is just too taxing on your team's farm distribution, and unless you're lucky and get a good early-game lead, it gets rough for you midgame when everyone wants to get farm, but you can only get 2-3 heroes to their core items in time for important fights. Conversely, you can pick a carry jungle when your AP mid or top can carry the midgame tempo, and can afford to cede farm to a jungler while playing a more supportive role.
I've never seen any pro cede farm for their ad carry save the support. Are you telling me this actually happens?
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On February 02 2012 10:36 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2012 10:06 TheYango wrote:On February 02 2012 07:59 jcarlsoniv wrote:
It's actually quite interesting having played with both Monte and T_D frequently. I find Monte plays more like OddOne (more of a support jungler) while Two_Down plays extremely similarly to SV (carry jungler, only ganks when it's worth it).
Playing A LOT with T_D, I've learned to be stronger and exchange better in lane. He needs to be able to rely on me to hold my lane well without ganks, and I need to rely on him to help the derpy solo q-ers win their lanes. When either of us struggle or fail, it's extremely evident in the turn out of the game. I've said this for months in this whole "carry jungle" vs. "support jungle" discussion--at every level, people turn this into an issue of playstyle, when it really shouldn't be. It's 100% an issue of team composition. If you've got 3 carry laners, you need to play a support jungle, plain and simple. Getting 4 carry champions farmed is just too taxing on your team's farm distribution, and unless you're lucky and get a good early-game lead, it gets rough for you midgame when everyone wants to get farm, but you can only get 2-3 heroes to their core items in time for important fights. Conversely, you can pick a carry jungle when your AP mid or top can carry the midgame tempo, and can afford to cede farm to a jungler while playing a more supportive role. I've never seen any pro cede farm for their ad carry save the support. Are you telling me this actually happens?
"Conversely, you can pick a carry jungle when your AP mid or top can carry the midgame tempo, and can afford to cede farm to a jungler while playing a more supportive role."
Notice that he specifically doesn't mention AD carry...
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On February 02 2012 08:26 Seuss wrote:
I think you're insulting TheOddOne. >.>
On the subject of support vs carry jungling, that's actually one of the reasons I've been so obsessed with jungle Kayle lately. There are very few junglers who can act both as a support and/or as a carry. Gangplank is another one. In the worst case if either falls way behind they still have their ults and 1-2 other useful abilities that aren't dependent upon farm or items. In the best case you have another carry or bruiser.
I think it's pretty accurate, even the division of different junglers. Amumu isn't going to penta kill, but he can lock down the enemy so your team can kill them. Rammus has literally no damage, especially early game, he was good because he gave your teammate 3 seconds of uninterrupted dps on a still target (until you get hp and thornmail, then he's an ad assassin). Now look at someone like Jarvan. Tons of early damage, but if he somehow gets behind he just becomes the biggest piece of shit once he uses his ult.
Saint likes the big farm champions like lee sin, and jarvan, and udyr, and he doesn't really play anything else. TOO plays the maokai gp cc bots that aren't that impressive by a carry standard. When TOO tries to play things like lee sin, it might be my faulty memory but he usually does poorly.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 02 2012 10:37 jcarlsoniv wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2012 10:36 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:On February 02 2012 10:06 TheYango wrote:On February 02 2012 07:59 jcarlsoniv wrote:
It's actually quite interesting having played with both Monte and T_D frequently. I find Monte plays more like OddOne (more of a support jungler) while Two_Down plays extremely similarly to SV (carry jungler, only ganks when it's worth it).
Playing A LOT with T_D, I've learned to be stronger and exchange better in lane. He needs to be able to rely on me to hold my lane well without ganks, and I need to rely on him to help the derpy solo q-ers win their lanes. When either of us struggle or fail, it's extremely evident in the turn out of the game. I've said this for months in this whole "carry jungle" vs. "support jungle" discussion--at every level, people turn this into an issue of playstyle, when it really shouldn't be. It's 100% an issue of team composition. If you've got 3 carry laners, you need to play a support jungle, plain and simple. Getting 4 carry champions farmed is just too taxing on your team's farm distribution, and unless you're lucky and get a good early-game lead, it gets rough for you midgame when everyone wants to get farm, but you can only get 2-3 heroes to their core items in time for important fights. Conversely, you can pick a carry jungle when your AP mid or top can carry the midgame tempo, and can afford to cede farm to a jungler while playing a more supportive role. I've never seen any pro cede farm for their ad carry save the support. Are you telling me this actually happens? "Conversely, you can pick a carry jungle when your AP mid or top can carry the midgame tempo, and can afford to cede farm to a jungler while playing a more supportive role." Notice that he specifically doesn't mention AD carry...
TBH I think certain AD carries could be solo-laned and be great tempo-carrying heroes. For example, Vayne has got to have one of the most insane ganking kits ever (superior to even a lot of junglers), and running her mid, then giving her red and at level 7-8 and allowing her to terrorize the entire map while your jungler farms/pushes mid could be extremely strong, but nobody's experimented enough with it to say for sure.
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Ah so does he mean that someone like galio that has low burst but decent midgame due to his high MR against the enemy AP, will cede farm to a carry jungler? I really don't think I've ever seen a galio or AP sion not farm when given the opportunity though.
On February 02 2012 10:42 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2012 10:37 jcarlsoniv wrote:On February 02 2012 10:36 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:On February 02 2012 10:06 TheYango wrote:On February 02 2012 07:59 jcarlsoniv wrote:
It's actually quite interesting having played with both Monte and T_D frequently. I find Monte plays more like OddOne (more of a support jungler) while Two_Down plays extremely similarly to SV (carry jungler, only ganks when it's worth it).
Playing A LOT with T_D, I've learned to be stronger and exchange better in lane. He needs to be able to rely on me to hold my lane well without ganks, and I need to rely on him to help the derpy solo q-ers win their lanes. When either of us struggle or fail, it's extremely evident in the turn out of the game. I've said this for months in this whole "carry jungle" vs. "support jungle" discussion--at every level, people turn this into an issue of playstyle, when it really shouldn't be. It's 100% an issue of team composition. If you've got 3 carry laners, you need to play a support jungle, plain and simple. Getting 4 carry champions farmed is just too taxing on your team's farm distribution, and unless you're lucky and get a good early-game lead, it gets rough for you midgame when everyone wants to get farm, but you can only get 2-3 heroes to their core items in time for important fights. Conversely, you can pick a carry jungle when your AP mid or top can carry the midgame tempo, and can afford to cede farm to a jungler while playing a more supportive role. I've never seen any pro cede farm for their ad carry save the support. Are you telling me this actually happens? "Conversely, you can pick a carry jungle when your AP mid or top can carry the midgame tempo, and can afford to cede farm to a jungler while playing a more supportive role." Notice that he specifically doesn't mention AD carry... TBH I think certain AD carries could be solo-laned and be great tempo-carrying heroes. For example, Vayne has got to have one of the most insane ganking kits ever (superior to even a lot of junglers), and running her mid, then giving her red and at level 7-8 and allowing her to terrorize the entire map while your jungler farms/pushes mid could be extremely strong, but nobody's experimented enough with it to say for sure.
I think the problem with putting vayne mid is that she's arguable more vulnerable to ganks since ganks can come from two sides. People don't like risking having their AD unfarmed. In addition I think she'd have trouble trading with a lot of AP mids. If Vayne loses by level 7/8 and she's your only AD carry she'll have a slow power curve into late game. If she's your only AD carry and she's constantly ganking she'll lose farm.
I've seen streams where people do run her top though as an alternative to Tryn.
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God, SYDTKO is like the Shikyo of the CLG vent right now.
Even their names are similar...
User was warned for this post
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On February 02 2012 10:24 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2012 10:06 TheYango wrote:On February 02 2012 07:59 jcarlsoniv wrote:
It's actually quite interesting having played with both Monte and T_D frequently. I find Monte plays more like OddOne (more of a support jungler) while Two_Down plays extremely similarly to SV (carry jungler, only ganks when it's worth it).
Playing A LOT with T_D, I've learned to be stronger and exchange better in lane. He needs to be able to rely on me to hold my lane well without ganks, and I need to rely on him to help the derpy solo q-ers win their lanes. When either of us struggle or fail, it's extremely evident in the turn out of the game. I've said this for months in this whole "carry jungle" vs. "support jungle" discussion--at every level, people turn this into an issue of playstyle, when it really shouldn't be. It's 100% an issue of team composition. If you've got 3 carry laners, you need to play a support jungle, plain and simple. Getting 4 carry champions farmed is just too taxing on your team's farm distribution, and unless you're lucky and get a good early-game lead, it gets rough for you midgame when everyone wants to get farm, but you can only get 2-3 heroes to their core items in time for important fights. Conversely, you can pick a carry jungle when your AP mid or top can carry the midgame tempo, and can afford to cede farm to a jungler while playing a more supportive role. ehh, I dont think this is quite the case. Even on Maokai, Alistar, or Lee Sin Saint maximizes his farm and ganks less than TOO will. Like TOO ganks CONSTANTLY, at the expense of his own jungle, whereas SV always farms first and ganks second. He ganks MORE on strong ganking characters, but there is still a large difference between the two. It just doesnt seem that way because SV is very good at selecting ganks that are going to be successful.
Yeah sure but that I'd probably rate as just "bad play" by either TOO or Saint depending on if it's a good idea judging by the team comps rather than playstyle. Like you can say you have aggressive playstyle toplane but if you play Irelia vs Udyr aggressively you're just going to fail and hence it's bad play, not aggressive playstyle
On February 02 2012 10:45 Two_DoWn wrote:
God, SYDTKO is like the Shikyo of the CLG vent right now.
Even their names are similar...
Could you please stop doing that?
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On February 02 2012 10:45 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2012 10:24 Two_DoWn wrote:On February 02 2012 10:06 TheYango wrote:On February 02 2012 07:59 jcarlsoniv wrote:
It's actually quite interesting having played with both Monte and T_D frequently. I find Monte plays more like OddOne (more of a support jungler) while Two_Down plays extremely similarly to SV (carry jungler, only ganks when it's worth it).
Playing A LOT with T_D, I've learned to be stronger and exchange better in lane. He needs to be able to rely on me to hold my lane well without ganks, and I need to rely on him to help the derpy solo q-ers win their lanes. When either of us struggle or fail, it's extremely evident in the turn out of the game. I've said this for months in this whole "carry jungle" vs. "support jungle" discussion--at every level, people turn this into an issue of playstyle, when it really shouldn't be. It's 100% an issue of team composition. If you've got 3 carry laners, you need to play a support jungle, plain and simple. Getting 4 carry champions farmed is just too taxing on your team's farm distribution, and unless you're lucky and get a good early-game lead, it gets rough for you midgame when everyone wants to get farm, but you can only get 2-3 heroes to their core items in time for important fights. Conversely, you can pick a carry jungle when your AP mid or top can carry the midgame tempo, and can afford to cede farm to a jungler while playing a more supportive role. ehh, I dont think this is quite the case. Even on Maokai, Alistar, or Lee Sin Saint maximizes his farm and ganks less than TOO will. Like TOO ganks CONSTANTLY, at the expense of his own jungle, whereas SV always farms first and ganks second. He ganks MORE on strong ganking characters, but there is still a large difference between the two. It just doesnt seem that way because SV is very good at selecting ganks that are going to be successful. Yeah sure but that I'd probably rate as just "bad play" by either TOO or Saint depending on if it's a good idea judging by the team comps rather than playstyle. Like you can say you have aggressive playstyle toplane but if you play Irelia vs Udyr aggressively you're just going to fail and hence it's bad play, not aggressive playstyle
Difference with jungling is that there are positioning ganks and actual chunk ganks. Saint rarely does the former, even on someone like Maokai- he farms then goes for kill/force back/blow summoner ganks. TOO tends to do a lot more showing himself/ doing a little bit of damage to enemy lanes to give his team an advantage, and his farming suffers for it.
Neither is wrong per say, just different. And even on the same champion one is no more better play than the other.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 02 2012 10:48 Two_DoWn wrote:
Difference with jungling is that there are positioning ganks and actual chunk ganks. Saint rarely does the former, even on someone like Maokai- he farms then goes for kill/force back/blow summoner ganks. TOO tends to do a lot more showing himself/ doing a little bit of damage to enemy lanes to give his team an advantage, and his farming suffers for it.
Neither is wrong per say, just different. And even on the same champion one is no more better play than the other.
I would say one or the other is better depending on the team-comps in question, and how high the value of your farm is compared to the laners. There are definitely team compositions where the farm of all 3 laners outweighs that of the jungler.
If you have 3 carry laners, you should be playing a support jungle that can sacrifice farm to set the tempo of the game and make sure those carries get farmed. Maybe not in solo queue, since you don't want to stake the game on the competency of your laners (though "team composition" in solo queue is pretty much a crapshoot in solo queue anyway--people rarely look beyond cookie-cutter lane assignments and superficial lane counterpicks), but definitely in arranged play.
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I've been looking at runes for a bit now that everyone uses the whole AD Quints+Marks and i'm wondering why we don't use per/level marks -
Marks
Flat - 8.55
PLvl - 21.87(1.2 at level 1)
Quints
Flat - 6.75
PLvl - 13.5(0.75 at level 1)
New Mastery -
PLvl - 9(0.5 at level 1)
So we lose a fair bit of early power for a long while by going quints, whereas with marks we don't lose AS much and with the new AD Scaling masters we net ourself 13 more AD for lategame without losing the last hit at tower capabilities? Thoughts/
Quints we lose out on a fair bit of early power
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On February 02 2012 10:55 Skithiryx wrote:
I've been looking at runes for a bit now that everyone uses the whole AD Quints+Marks and i'm wondering why we don't use per/level marks -
Marks
Flat - 8.55
PLvl - 21.87(1.2 at level 1)
Quints
Flat - 6.75
PLvl - 13.5(0.75 at level 1)
New Mastery -
PLvl - 9(0.5 at level 1)
So we lose a fair bit of early power for a long while by going quints, whereas with marks we don't lose AS much and with the new AD Scaling masters we net ourself 13 more AD for lategame without losing the last hit at tower capabilities? Thoughts/
Quints we lose out on a fair bit of early power
the lane is won or lost at the early levels is the reason id imagine, cause you want that early AD advantage as soon as possible
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On February 02 2012 10:43 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:Ah so does he mean that someone like galio that has low burst but decent midgame due to his high MR against the enemy AP, will cede farm to a carry jungler? I really don't think I've ever seen a galio or AP sion not farm when given the opportunity though. Show nested quote +On February 02 2012 10:42 TheYango wrote:On February 02 2012 10:37 jcarlsoniv wrote:On February 02 2012 10:36 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:On February 02 2012 10:06 TheYango wrote:On February 02 2012 07:59 jcarlsoniv wrote:
It's actually quite interesting having played with both Monte and T_D frequently. I find Monte plays more like OddOne (more of a support jungler) while Two_Down plays extremely similarly to SV (carry jungler, only ganks when it's worth it).
Playing A LOT with T_D, I've learned to be stronger and exchange better in lane. He needs to be able to rely on me to hold my lane well without ganks, and I need to rely on him to help the derpy solo q-ers win their lanes. When either of us struggle or fail, it's extremely evident in the turn out of the game. I've said this for months in this whole "carry jungle" vs. "support jungle" discussion--at every level, people turn this into an issue of playstyle, when it really shouldn't be. It's 100% an issue of team composition. If you've got 3 carry laners, you need to play a support jungle, plain and simple. Getting 4 carry champions farmed is just too taxing on your team's farm distribution, and unless you're lucky and get a good early-game lead, it gets rough for you midgame when everyone wants to get farm, but you can only get 2-3 heroes to their core items in time for important fights. Conversely, you can pick a carry jungle when your AP mid or top can carry the midgame tempo, and can afford to cede farm to a jungler while playing a more supportive role. I've never seen any pro cede farm for their ad carry save the support. Are you telling me this actually happens? "Conversely, you can pick a carry jungle when your AP mid or top can carry the midgame tempo, and can afford to cede farm to a jungler while playing a more supportive role." Notice that he specifically doesn't mention AD carry... TBH I think certain AD carries could be solo-laned and be great tempo-carrying heroes. For example, Vayne has got to have one of the most insane ganking kits ever (superior to even a lot of junglers), and running her mid, then giving her red and at level 7-8 and allowing her to terrorize the entire map while your jungler farms/pushes mid could be extremely strong, but nobody's experimented enough with it to say for sure. I think the problem with putting vayne mid is that she's arguable more vulnerable to ganks since ganks can come from two sides. People don't like risking having their AD unfarmed. In addition I think she'd have trouble trading with a lot of AP mids. If Vayne loses by level 7/8 and she's your only AD carry she'll have a slow power curve into late game. If she's your only AD carry and she's constantly ganking she'll lose farm. I've seen streams where people do run her top though as an alternative to Tryn.
Snoopeh has a great record jungling Vayne, and it doesn't mess up the team comp very much. It won't be as scary as a roaming mid Vayne though. And in both cases, you're still free to run AD + support bot (when Snoopeh jungles Vayne they usually still have a standard bot lane).
For the mid Vayne strategy, I'd be a bit concerned about finding a jungle that can hold mid against an AP carry that outlevels him.
re: AD/level runes above
If you're going to pick late-game runes like that, there are generally better choices (e.g crit chance). The flat AD reds are mostly to help you last hit early on when your base damage is low, so AD/level doesn't work as well. Last hitting is the main reason to pick them over armor pen anyways, which scale better.
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On February 02 2012 10:55 Skithiryx wrote:
I've been looking at runes for a bit now that everyone uses the whole AD Quints+Marks and i'm wondering why we don't use per/level marks -
Marks
Flat - 8.55
PLvl - 21.87(1.2 at level 1)
Quints
Flat - 6.75
PLvl - 13.5(0.75 at level 1)
New Mastery -
PLvl - 9(0.5 at level 1)
So we lose a fair bit of early power for a long while by going quints, whereas with marks we don't lose AS much and with the new AD Scaling masters we net ourself 13 more AD for lategame without losing the last hit at tower capabilities? Thoughts/
Quints we lose out on a fair bit of early power
because at higher levels of ad arp runes are better. Also having a stronger late game doesn't matter if you never make it to that point.
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On February 02 2012 10:43 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:Ah so does he mean that someone like galio that has low burst but decent midgame due to his high MR against the enemy AP, will cede farm to a carry jungler? I really don't think I've ever seen a galio or AP sion not farm when given the opportunity though. Show nested quote +On February 02 2012 10:42 TheYango wrote:On February 02 2012 10:37 jcarlsoniv wrote:On February 02 2012 10:36 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:On February 02 2012 10:06 TheYango wrote:On February 02 2012 07:59 jcarlsoniv wrote:
It's actually quite interesting having played with both Monte and T_D frequently. I find Monte plays more like OddOne (more of a support jungler) while Two_Down plays extremely similarly to SV (carry jungler, only ganks when it's worth it).
Playing A LOT with T_D, I've learned to be stronger and exchange better in lane. He needs to be able to rely on me to hold my lane well without ganks, and I need to rely on him to help the derpy solo q-ers win their lanes. When either of us struggle or fail, it's extremely evident in the turn out of the game. I've said this for months in this whole "carry jungle" vs. "support jungle" discussion--at every level, people turn this into an issue of playstyle, when it really shouldn't be. It's 100% an issue of team composition. If you've got 3 carry laners, you need to play a support jungle, plain and simple. Getting 4 carry champions farmed is just too taxing on your team's farm distribution, and unless you're lucky and get a good early-game lead, it gets rough for you midgame when everyone wants to get farm, but you can only get 2-3 heroes to their core items in time for important fights. Conversely, you can pick a carry jungle when your AP mid or top can carry the midgame tempo, and can afford to cede farm to a jungler while playing a more supportive role. I've never seen any pro cede farm for their ad carry save the support. Are you telling me this actually happens? "Conversely, you can pick a carry jungle when your AP mid or top can carry the midgame tempo, and can afford to cede farm to a jungler while playing a more supportive role." Notice that he specifically doesn't mention AD carry... TBH I think certain AD carries could be solo-laned and be great tempo-carrying heroes. For example, Vayne has got to have one of the most insane ganking kits ever (superior to even a lot of junglers), and running her mid, then giving her red and at level 7-8 and allowing her to terrorize the entire map while your jungler farms/pushes mid could be extremely strong, but nobody's experimented enough with it to say for sure. I think the problem with putting vayne mid is that she's arguable more vulnerable to ganks since ganks can come from two sides. People don't like risking having their AD unfarmed. In addition I think she'd have trouble trading with a lot of AP mids. If Vayne loses by level 7/8 and she's your only AD carry she'll have a slow power curve into late game. If she's your only AD carry and she's constantly ganking she'll lose farm. I've seen streams where people do run her top though as an alternative to Tryn.
If you have a carry jungler and Galio top, I would say yes, he should give some (not necessarily a ton) cs to the jungler. I ideally wouldn't want to play Galio with a support jungler, because when it comes down to it, neither of them would be able to carry the game.
Just because you don't notice it, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. If you watch SV, very often he will sneak into lane to take a few cs here and there, and will usually hold a lane and farm as long as he can while his laner isn't there. As a carry jungler, he needs to get the farm from lanes that just isn't possible in the jungle.
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On February 02 2012 10:54 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2012 10:48 Two_DoWn wrote:
Difference with jungling is that there are positioning ganks and actual chunk ganks. Saint rarely does the former, even on someone like Maokai- he farms then goes for kill/force back/blow summoner ganks. TOO tends to do a lot more showing himself/ doing a little bit of damage to enemy lanes to give his team an advantage, and his farming suffers for it.
Neither is wrong per say, just different. And even on the same champion one is no more better play than the other. I would say one or the other is better depending on the team-comps in question, and how high the value of your farm is compared to the laners. There are definitely team compositions where the farm of all 3 laners outweighs that of the jungler. If you have 3 carry laners, you should be playing a support jungle that can sacrifice farm to set the tempo of the game and make sure those carries get farmed. Maybe not in solo queue, since you don't want to stake the game on the competency of your laners (though "team composition" in solo queue is pretty much a crapshoot in solo queue anyway--people rarely look beyond cookie-cutter lane assignments and superficial lane counterpicks), but definitely in arranged play.
There are definitely differences with what jungle you should pick in that situation, but you cant really differentiate jungles based on that because every top jungle can play any jungle champion, and choose to pick whatever fits the team best.
What I am trying to point out is that there are little things that make a big difference for how a game gets played out. 1 less gank means a lot more farm for the jungle, especially if someone is good at differentiating between the ganks they can make and the ones they cant.
But even then, "make" is a subjective label. For TOO, "make" seems to mean giving his lane a slight advantage. For SV that means forcing his opponent back, through chunking or death.
Its that fine line that separates the style- whether the jungler chooses to prioritize his own farm or that of his teammates. For example, Saint will farm a bit more and get a faster frozen heart, while TOO might gank and give regi a boost in lane through having a slight health/mana advantage that ends up turning into a faster rabbadons.
That IMO is a stylistic thing that is neither right nor wrong.
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EPT
