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On January 20 2012 08:49 Two_DoWn wrote:
Wait, did I really need to add the fact that lol players practice pretty damn close to the amount that korean starcraft team houses do? Have you ever LOOKED at the hours live underneath a stream?
True but the competitive scene is extremely small compared to the DotA team. You and me both know there are a handful of teams that are truly capable of winning tournaments consistently. DotA has an established competitive infrastructure that helps players refine and sharpen their skills; League has a solo que ladder that to be quite honest, is not that great for helping players refine their skills. The level of play in even high level ELO games looks awful compared to just higher level inhouse league games in DotA.
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the whole point of korean pro houses was never the hours involved. it was how you practice not how long. current lol pros put in 8 hours of pointless solo queue shit, and even then just troll about and dont work on mechanics. they might aswell not practice at all
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Did I start this?
+ Show Spoiler +Muahahaha! Burn thread!... but no I guess the whale in the room had to be addressed at one point.
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The fact that you even think there's a whale in the room says a lot.
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On January 20 2012 08:53 turdburgler wrote:
the whole point of korean pro houses was never the hours involved. it was how you practice not how long. current lol pros put in 8 hours of pointless solo queue shit, and even then just troll about and dont work on mechanics. they might aswell not practice at all
I think that this is pretty wrong. Chauster used solo queue to practice AP carry while jiji used it to practice AD carry when those two were considering swapping up roles. HotshotGG used solo queue to expand his champion pool. Chaox uses it to test out duo bots with Xpecial. TOO and saintvicious try out new and weird junglers.
The NA teams scrim too. Probably just as much as the Korean teams who have team houses scrim. It's been discussed to death on these forums so I don't wanna talk much about it again but I really don't think that solo queue is "pointless." The pro NA players who primarily play solo queue are a hell of a lot better at this game now than they were a year ago. And like I said in an earlier post, the only thing that the Korean teams do that the NA/EU teams don't do is review their replays which I do think will help them but I don't think it'll give them a huge edge over the NA/EU teams.
There's a reason why all of the Korean and Chinese teams still play solo queue on the NA server and it isn't because it's fun.
This isn't StarCraft. Team houses were so helpful in Brood War because you had a wide range of practice partners who were available every day. You don't have practice partners in a game like LoL.
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On January 20 2012 08:49 Two_DoWn wrote:
Wait, did I really need to add the fact that lol players practice pretty damn close to the amount that korean starcraft team houses do? Have you ever LOOKED at the hours live underneath a stream?
And Chu was never one of the top players. Maybe if you wanted to stretch the list to 500-1000 players you could fit him in. But that is a very large difference between competitive player and high elo.
The plain fact that you seem to regard total practice time as the important ingredient in becoming better pretty much disqualifies you as someone who talks about whether people are practicing properly or not.
In fact, the total time invested doesn't matter all that much, it is about quality time and dedicated practice if you REALLY want to improve.
And yes, simply considering the top LoL teams "practice" by solo q'ing for 8h a day and then maybe a few scrims per week means that this game (and it's players) isn't well developed at all.
That's the equivalent of reading books on a topic you have an exam on (instead of properly writing shit down and working on your weak points, writing summaries etc.) or the equivalent of going to a chess club where you sit and play random people close to your elo all day. In neither of those categories "just doing it" for 8h per day is considered a good practice pattern.
Since it IS considered a solid practice pattern (hint: your orignal statement above said exactly this) in LoL this means the game is not matured (aka not developed). Since it's not developed I also agree with anyone calling top LoL players BAD compared to top SC:BW or DotA players in their field. (hint: both those games are around for a LOT longer time.)
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On January 20 2012 08:53 turdburgler wrote:
the whole point of korean pro houses was never the hours involved. it was how you practice not how long. current lol pros put in 8 hours of pointless solo queue shit, and even then just troll about and dont work on mechanics. they might aswell not practice at all
Its hyperbole like this that makes these kind of conversations so heated. Is their practice 100% efficient, probably not. Is their practice 0% efficient, definitely no. Some players practice really well.
And we could also get into the whole 'korean practice method is inefficient' especially for a game that IS new and so depends more on intelligent and creative play than refined mechanics. But frankly this whole discussion is rather tiresome so lets not.
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On January 20 2012 09:03 Craton wrote:
The fact that you even think there's a whale in the room says a lot.
Elephant and mammoth are already taken. There apparently is if people are willing to talk about it.
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On January 20 2012 00:53 Requizen wrote:
Speaking of junglers, is it considered acceptable to gank one lane more and basically ignore one or the other? I often find myself floating between top and mid, since bot often seems to be more of a standstill to me. People at lower elo or normals usually just turn bot into a farmfest of CS and heals.
If top is pushing hard and has no escapes you should roll him over and over. However, your first priority is winning your bottom lane no matter what. Winning mid is nice, but bottom lane is extremely important because :
1) You're getting kills/assists for your AD Carry. You get them fed early, it's very difficult for opposing teams to come back on you.
2) You take out that bottom tower fast, you get free dragons all day.
Winning that bottom lane is EXTREMELY important. Just even harassing them and forcing them to back and getting your lane ahead is key. If you can win both mid and bottom, well you pretty much flatout win the game.
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On January 20 2012 08:53 turdburgler wrote:
the whole point of korean pro houses was never the hours involved. it was how you practice not how long. current lol pros put in 8 hours of pointless solo queue shit, and even then just troll about and dont work on mechanics. they might aswell not practice at all
I always wonder why arranged 5v5's aren't more popular cuz it seems like scrims barely happen and its only 5-6 teams scrimming against eachother. If good teams could constantly play against eachother the metagame would develop so much faster and everyone would get quality practice. There would be way less trolling and other bullshit that plagues solo queue. Maybe there just aren't enough good teams to play eachother or maybe they just don't ever decide to queue because chances are no one else is queuing. Right now in LoL there is very little serious team play going on outside of tournaments which sucks.
Even in WoW arenas there were tons of good 5's teams playing against each other every night. Imagine 20-30 of NA's best LoL teams queueing up for arranged 5v5's every night. Currently the ranked 5v5 ladder barely exists, and when I watch CLG or some good team queue for it they always roll the other team and its not very good practice.
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United States37500 Posts
Watching Salce on Ori is so zzz.
Don't know why she fell off so fast a few patches ago. I remember she used to be autobanned vs CLG couple tourneys ago. That jiji ori. ;o
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On January 20 2012 09:04 overt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2012 08:53 turdburgler wrote:
the whole point of korean pro houses was never the hours involved. it was how you practice not how long. current lol pros put in 8 hours of pointless solo queue shit, and even then just troll about and dont work on mechanics. they might aswell not practice at all I think that this is pretty wrong. Chauster used solo queue to practice AP carry while jiji used it to practice AD carry when those two were considering swapping up roles. HotshotGG used solo queue to expand his champion pool. Chaox uses it to test out duo bots with Xpecial. TOO and saintvicious try out new and weird junglers. The NA teams scrim too. Probably just as much as the Korean teams who have team houses scrim. It's been discussed to death on these forums so I don't wanna talk much about it again but I really don't think that solo queue is "pointless." The pro NA players who primarily play solo queue are a hell of a lot better at this game now than they were a year ago. And like I said in an earlier post, the only thing that the Korean teams do that the NA/EU teams don't do is review their replays which I do think will help them but I don't think it'll give them a huge edge over the NA/EU teams. There's a reason why all of the Korean and Chinese teams still play solo queue on the NA server and it isn't because it's fun. This isn't StarCraft. Team houses were so helpful in Brood War because you had a wide range of practice partners who were available every day. You don't have practice partners in a game like LoL.
DotA doesn't have solo que ladder or anything of that sort. What they have are high level inhouse communities and leagues that allow teams and players to play with other high level players in an environment that forces players to be competitive. The problem with solo que is that some players are playing champions that are suboptimal in competitive play just because they want to. In high level inhouse games, that isn't allowed in DotA. Period. You try to pull some shit like that you get instantly banned.
On January 20 2012 09:14 NeoIllusions wrote:
Watching Salce on Ori is so zzz.
Don't know why she fell off so fast a few patches ago. I remember she used to be autobanned vs CLG couple tourneys ago. That jiji ori. ;o
She got nerfed big time so her ball doesn't blow kids up instantly.
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On January 20 2012 09:05 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2012 08:49 Two_DoWn wrote:
Wait, did I really need to add the fact that lol players practice pretty damn close to the amount that korean starcraft team houses do? Have you ever LOOKED at the hours live underneath a stream?
And Chu was never one of the top players. Maybe if you wanted to stretch the list to 500-1000 players you could fit him in. But that is a very large difference between competitive player and high elo. The plain fact that you seem to regard total practice time as the important ingredient in becoming better pretty much disqualifies you as someone who talks about whether people are practicing properly or not.In fact, the total time invested doesn't matter all that much, it is about quality time and dedicated practice if you REALLY want to improve. And yes, simply considering the top LoL teams "practice" by solo q'ing for 8h a day and then maybe a few scrims per week means that this game (and it's players) isn't well developed at all. That's the equivalent of reading books on a topic you have an exam on (instead of properly writing shit down and working on your weak points, writing summaries etc.) or the equivalent of going to a chess club where you sit and play random people close to your elo all day. In neither of those categories "just doing it" for 8h per day is considered a good practice pattern. Since it IS considered a solid practice pattern (hint: your orignal statement above said exactly this) in LoL this means the game is not matured (aka not developed). Since it's not developed I also agree with anyone calling top LoL players BAD compared to top SC:BW or DotA players in their field. (hint: both those games are around for a LOT longer time.)
And how is solo q NOT an effective means of practice?
It allows you to expand your staple of champions without wasting the time of 9 other people on teams. It allows you to try new builds, new strategies, and new methods of engagement. It allows you to see OTHER strategies and incorporate those into your play, especially strats that ARENT used at a tournament level.
Hell, I could make a VERY convincing arugument that for a moba, scrims are actually the LEAST efficient way to practice. I mean, in the time it takes to set up a scrim and actually play (1.5-2 hours) you can play 3-4 solo q games. And realistically a scrim tells you nothing that a solo q game doesnt. Everyone KNOWS how to play late game when you get to that level. You dont need to practice with your team just to understand that if it is 35 minutes into the game, you shouldnt be bottom (unless you are doublelift). But realistically, what does it matter if chauster and doublelift are duo qing instead of a full scrim? What additional benefit does having jiji, SV and HSGG in the game actually have? Very little.
I am not saying scrims are useless, and they certainly help team coordination. But they DO NOT actually help mechanics or game understanding nearly as much as solo q does. And the time that it takes to scrim makes them incredibly inefficient.
In the future could someone develop a more efficient way of practicing than solo q? Possibly. But at the moment, it IS the most efficient way to practice simply because scrims dont add nearly as much as they take away.
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On January 20 2012 09:15 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2012 09:04 overt wrote:On January 20 2012 08:53 turdburgler wrote:
the whole point of korean pro houses was never the hours involved. it was how you practice not how long. current lol pros put in 8 hours of pointless solo queue shit, and even then just troll about and dont work on mechanics. they might aswell not practice at all I think that this is pretty wrong. Chauster used solo queue to practice AP carry while jiji used it to practice AD carry when those two were considering swapping up roles. HotshotGG used solo queue to expand his champion pool. Chaox uses it to test out duo bots with Xpecial. TOO and saintvicious try out new and weird junglers. The NA teams scrim too. Probably just as much as the Korean teams who have team houses scrim. It's been discussed to death on these forums so I don't wanna talk much about it again but I really don't think that solo queue is "pointless." The pro NA players who primarily play solo queue are a hell of a lot better at this game now than they were a year ago. And like I said in an earlier post, the only thing that the Korean teams do that the NA/EU teams don't do is review their replays which I do think will help them but I don't think it'll give them a huge edge over the NA/EU teams. There's a reason why all of the Korean and Chinese teams still play solo queue on the NA server and it isn't because it's fun. This isn't StarCraft. Team houses were so helpful in Brood War because you had a wide range of practice partners who were available every day. You don't have practice partners in a game like LoL. DotA doesn't have solo que ladder or anything of that sort. What they have are high level inhouse communities and leagues that allow teams and players to play with other high level players in an environment that forces players to be competitive. The problem with solo que is that some players are playing champions that are suboptimal in competitive play just because they want to. In high level inhouse games, that isn't allowed in DotA. Period. You try to pull some shit like that you get instantly banned. Show nested quote +On January 20 2012 09:14 NeoIllusions wrote:
Watching Salce on Ori is so zzz.
Don't know why she fell off so fast a few patches ago. I remember she used to be autobanned vs CLG couple tourneys ago. That jiji ori. ;o She got nerfed big time so her ball doesn't blow kids up instantly.
So we have no real way of knowing if solo queue is better practice than arranged teams? 'Cause that's what it sounds like to me. And I personally don't think there are too many "sub-optimal" champions that will work really well in solo queue but totally fail in arranged 5s. Reginald has had success with Leblanc in actual tournaments and he's gotten completely wrecked running her in tournaments too. Same could be said for when he plays LB in solo queue. And that's like the most "solo queue champion" I can think of yet it's actually been run in tournaments with success.
As for Orianna, I feel like her ranged nerfs were more detrimental to her than damage changes. And I think she's still strong she just isn't a champion who auto-wins anymore so compared to how strong she used to be she seems bad.
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On January 20 2012 09:19 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2012 09:05 r.Evo wrote:On January 20 2012 08:49 Two_DoWn wrote:
Wait, did I really need to add the fact that lol players practice pretty damn close to the amount that korean starcraft team houses do? Have you ever LOOKED at the hours live underneath a stream?
And Chu was never one of the top players. Maybe if you wanted to stretch the list to 500-1000 players you could fit him in. But that is a very large difference between competitive player and high elo. The plain fact that you seem to regard total practice time as the important ingredient in becoming better pretty much disqualifies you as someone who talks about whether people are practicing properly or not.In fact, the total time invested doesn't matter all that much, it is about quality time and dedicated practice if you REALLY want to improve. And yes, simply considering the top LoL teams "practice" by solo q'ing for 8h a day and then maybe a few scrims per week means that this game (and it's players) isn't well developed at all. That's the equivalent of reading books on a topic you have an exam on (instead of properly writing shit down and working on your weak points, writing summaries etc.) or the equivalent of going to a chess club where you sit and play random people close to your elo all day. In neither of those categories "just doing it" for 8h per day is considered a good practice pattern. Since it IS considered a solid practice pattern (hint: your orignal statement above said exactly this) in LoL this means the game is not matured (aka not developed). Since it's not developed I also agree with anyone calling top LoL players BAD compared to top SC:BW or DotA players in their field. (hint: both those games are around for a LOT longer time.) And how is solo q NOT an effective means of practice? It allows you to expand your staple of champions without wasting the time of 9 other people on teams. It allows you to try new builds, new strategies, and new methods of engagement. It allows you to see OTHER strategies and incorporate those into your play, especially strats that ARENT used at a tournament level. Hell, I could make a VERY convincing arugument that for a moba, scrims are actually the LEAST efficient way to practice. I mean, in the time it takes to set up a scrim and actually play (1.5-2 hours) you can play 3-4 solo q games. And realistically a scrim tells you nothing that a solo q game doesnt. Everyone KNOWS how to play late game when you get to that level. You dont need to practice with your team just to understand that if it is 35 minutes into the game, you shouldnt be bottom (unless you are doublelift). But realistically, what does it matter if chauster and doublelift are duo qing instead of a full scrim? What additional benefit does having jiji, SV and HSGG in the game actually have? Very little. I am not saying scrims are useless, and they certainly help team coordination. But they DO NOT actually help mechanics or game understanding nearly as much as solo q does. And the time that it takes to scrim makes them incredibly inefficient. In the future could someone develop a more efficient way of practicing than solo q? Possibly. But at the moment, it IS the most efficient way to practice simply because scrims dont add nearly as much as they take away.
You're putting words in my mouth. I said "total time investment is no measurement for a good practice". Your original statement was "Have you ever LOOKED at the hours live underneath a stream?" which hints at you believing that someone who "just plays" for 8h is practicing properly.
If you believe that playing for the sake of playing equals effective practice then there is no hope left for you.
I am not arguing whether solo Q or scrims are the most effective way of practicing (in fact I think I already know about a way more streamlined practicing model which would fit LoL perfectly), I am arguing that the plain time you put into something is no measurement for good practice.
PS: The fact that it takes 1.5-2h to set up a scrim means that people have shitty organization, not that it's a waste of time.
PPS: Is it "organisation" or "organization"? =P
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On January 20 2012 09:11 Mios wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2012 08:53 turdburgler wrote:
the whole point of korean pro houses was never the hours involved. it was how you practice not how long. current lol pros put in 8 hours of pointless solo queue shit, and even then just troll about and dont work on mechanics. they might aswell not practice at all I always wonder why arranged 5v5's aren't more popular cuz it seems like scrims barely happen and its only 5-6 teams scrimming against eachother. If good teams could constantly play against eachother the metagame would develop so much faster and everyone would get quality practice. There would be way less trolling and other bullshit that plagues solo queue. Maybe there just aren't enough good teams to play eachother or maybe they just don't ever decide to queue because chances are no one else is queuing. Right now in LoL there is very little serious team play going on outside of tournaments which sucks. Even in WoW arenas there were tons of good 5's teams playing against each other every night. Imagine 20-30 of NA's best LoL teams queueing up for arranged 5v5's every night. Currently the ranked 5v5 ladder barely exists, and when I watch CLG or some good team queue for it they always roll the other team and its not very good practice.
WoW arenas are different than LoL. The matches are extremely short in comparison and there are far fewer potential matchups. In one evening of arenas you can play more games than a LoL player might in a week of play, and experience a greater percentage of potential matchups while doing so.
A LoL ranked team takes a greater time commitment. While a dozen arena matches fit easily into a two hour time window, fitting two LoL games into the same time period can be difficult.
If TL B were an arena team rather than a LoL team we'd be far more active simply by virtue of the smaller time commitment required.
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On January 20 2012 09:27 overt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2012 09:15 superstartran wrote:On January 20 2012 09:04 overt wrote:On January 20 2012 08:53 turdburgler wrote:
the whole point of korean pro houses was never the hours involved. it was how you practice not how long. current lol pros put in 8 hours of pointless solo queue shit, and even then just troll about and dont work on mechanics. they might aswell not practice at all I think that this is pretty wrong. Chauster used solo queue to practice AP carry while jiji used it to practice AD carry when those two were considering swapping up roles. HotshotGG used solo queue to expand his champion pool. Chaox uses it to test out duo bots with Xpecial. TOO and saintvicious try out new and weird junglers. The NA teams scrim too. Probably just as much as the Korean teams who have team houses scrim. It's been discussed to death on these forums so I don't wanna talk much about it again but I really don't think that solo queue is "pointless." The pro NA players who primarily play solo queue are a hell of a lot better at this game now than they were a year ago. And like I said in an earlier post, the only thing that the Korean teams do that the NA/EU teams don't do is review their replays which I do think will help them but I don't think it'll give them a huge edge over the NA/EU teams. There's a reason why all of the Korean and Chinese teams still play solo queue on the NA server and it isn't because it's fun. This isn't StarCraft. Team houses were so helpful in Brood War because you had a wide range of practice partners who were available every day. You don't have practice partners in a game like LoL. DotA doesn't have solo que ladder or anything of that sort. What they have are high level inhouse communities and leagues that allow teams and players to play with other high level players in an environment that forces players to be competitive. The problem with solo que is that some players are playing champions that are suboptimal in competitive play just because they want to. In high level inhouse games, that isn't allowed in DotA. Period. You try to pull some shit like that you get instantly banned. On January 20 2012 09:14 NeoIllusions wrote:
Watching Salce on Ori is so zzz.
Don't know why she fell off so fast a few patches ago. I remember she used to be autobanned vs CLG couple tourneys ago. That jiji ori. ;o She got nerfed big time so her ball doesn't blow kids up instantly. So we have no real way of knowing if solo queue is better practice than arranged teams? 'Cause that's what it sounds like to me. And I personally don't think there are too many "sub-optimal" champions that will work really well in solo queue but totally fail in arranged 5s. Reginald has had success with Leblanc in actual tournaments and he's gotten completely wrecked running her in tournaments too. Same could be said for when he plays LB in solo queue. And that's like the most "solo queue champion" I can think of yet it's actually been run in tournaments with success. As for Orianna, I feel like her ranged nerfs were more detrimental to her than damage changes. And I think she's still strong she just isn't a champion who auto-wins anymore so compared to how strong she used to be she seems bad.
You have to understand, that League's competitive scene isn't very strong. There are maybe 3-4 teams that are going to pretty much consistently wipe the floor with everyone. Because of this, those 3-4 teams stagnate because there are no other teams that are near their level to compete with them. Thus, you end up with a metagame that is extremely stale with their picks. No one really knows what is good in tournament play. Characters like Ryze were considered crap after their remake, and then all of a sudden he becomes so good he has to get nerfed. Tryndamere was the same way.
There are champions that are definitely suboptimal in tournament play, but can work in high ELO play. You have to remember that most champions that are ideal in tournament play have strong AoE presence/strong team utility/or are obscenely broken (aka Vayne, pre-nerf Udyr, pre-nerf Orianna, etc. etc. etc.)
Teemo top lane for example works extremely well all the way up in higher ELOs. Why? Because in solo que, winning lanes wins games. In tournament play, winning mid game fights wins games. Teemo is obscenely strong in lane and can counter alot of popular AD champions top with Shroom zoning and his strong harass. However, in a team fight, he's pretty godawful because he doesn't bring much to the table as say a Chogath or a GP, both who have some sort of AoE utility spell.
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On January 20 2012 09:14 NeoIllusions wrote:
Watching Salce on Ori is so zzz.
Don't know why she fell off so fast a few patches ago. I remember she used to be autobanned vs CLG couple tourneys ago. That jiji ori. ;o
zzz as in faceroll good or zzz as in not up to par with other APs?
I think she's fine atm. Her laning phase is forced to be pretty passive but she can farm fine with q, while her teamfight utility is really dynamic though because her shield has such a long range and can chain off other spells with it. Mid game Ori with blue is like free dragons with her ult and zoning potential
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On January 20 2012 09:15 superstartran wrote:
She got nerfed big time so her ball doesn't blow kids up instantly.
The range nerfs hurt more than anything
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United States37500 Posts
On January 20 2012 09:45 R04R wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2012 09:14 NeoIllusions wrote:
Watching Salce on Ori is so zzz.
Don't know why she fell off so fast a few patches ago. I remember she used to be autobanned vs CLG couple tourneys ago. That jiji ori. ;o zzz as in faceroll good or zzz as in not up to par with other APs? I think she's fine atm. Her laning phase is forced to be pretty passive but she can farm fine with q, while her teamfight utility is really dynamic though because her shield has such a long range and can chain off other spells with it. Mid game Ori with blue is like free dragons with her ult and zoning potential
I think she's still good. She's like Xerath atm. A good champion (not faceroll like before) but no one on NA wants to put in the time to master her. She has so much utility compared to other APs and she still has good ratios.
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EPT
