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On January 20 2012 08:00 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2012 07:39 overt wrote:On January 20 2012 06:52 BlackMagister wrote:
I think Hidden meant top LoL players make a lot of mistakes. LoL scene hence has a pretty bad skill level if top players are still making that many mistakes. Skill ceiling is not the correct term he should have used which caused a lot of confusion. While I don't know for sure because I don't even watch SC2 anymore I would imagine you see pro players make mistakes every game. 'Cause they made mistakes in Brood War too. You can't find a sport or video game where the top players don't make obvious mistakes from time to time and if you are really knowledgeable about the sport/game you're watching you'll probably notice tons of minor mistakes too. Like, I don't think top LoL players make more mistakes than people who play other games. Their mistakes are just a lot more noticeable and there are 10 dudes playing at once as opposed to 2 in StarCraft. You might not catch when a pro StarCraft player mis-clicks and builds more Zealots than he should have as easily as you'll catch a LoL player missing three last hits. As someone who watches a lot of BW, LoL pros are flat out bad compared to decent SC players, at least mechanically. Stuff like missing CS is just basic stuff that is still acceptable to do at pro level when under no pressure. Well just let me say that in a year or two of koreans getting into the game that will no longer be the case. Hell just watch CS in a more mature game like DOTA and compare the difficulty and performance of good players, its a world of difference.
AAAANNNNDDDDD this is where I throw up in my mouth because another Dota snob with no understanding of lol comes in to bash it.
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well, as i said, if LoL so easy, everyone is welcome to pick up some easy 100000$ in pricemoney.
The game is even free to play, no investment needed.
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On January 20 2012 08:00 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2012 07:39 overt wrote:On January 20 2012 06:52 BlackMagister wrote:
I think Hidden meant top LoL players make a lot of mistakes. LoL scene hence has a pretty bad skill level if top players are still making that many mistakes. Skill ceiling is not the correct term he should have used which caused a lot of confusion. While I don't know for sure because I don't even watch SC2 anymore I would imagine you see pro players make mistakes every game. 'Cause they made mistakes in Brood War too. You can't find a sport or video game where the top players don't make obvious mistakes from time to time and if you are really knowledgeable about the sport/game you're watching you'll probably notice tons of minor mistakes too. Like, I don't think top LoL players make more mistakes than people who play other games. Their mistakes are just a lot more noticeable and there are 10 dudes playing at once as opposed to 2 in StarCraft. You might not catch when a pro StarCraft player mis-clicks and builds more Zealots than he should have as easily as you'll catch a LoL player missing three last hits. As someone who watches a lot of BW, LoL pros are flat out bad compared to decent SC players, at least mechanically. Stuff like missing CS is just basic stuff that is still acceptable to do at pro level when under no pressure. Well just let me say that in a year or two of koreans getting into the game that will no longer be the case. Hell just watch CS in a more mature game like DOTA and compare the difficulty and performance of good players, its a world of difference.
League of legends mistakes seem to be more costly than a dota equivalant.
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On January 20 2012 08:03 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2012 08:00 sob3k wrote:On January 20 2012 07:39 overt wrote:On January 20 2012 06:52 BlackMagister wrote:
I think Hidden meant top LoL players make a lot of mistakes. LoL scene hence has a pretty bad skill level if top players are still making that many mistakes. Skill ceiling is not the correct term he should have used which caused a lot of confusion. While I don't know for sure because I don't even watch SC2 anymore I would imagine you see pro players make mistakes every game. 'Cause they made mistakes in Brood War too. You can't find a sport or video game where the top players don't make obvious mistakes from time to time and if you are really knowledgeable about the sport/game you're watching you'll probably notice tons of minor mistakes too. Like, I don't think top LoL players make more mistakes than people who play other games. Their mistakes are just a lot more noticeable and there are 10 dudes playing at once as opposed to 2 in StarCraft. You might not catch when a pro StarCraft player mis-clicks and builds more Zealots than he should have as easily as you'll catch a LoL player missing three last hits. As someone who watches a lot of BW, LoL pros are flat out bad compared to decent SC players, at least mechanically. Stuff like missing CS is just basic stuff that is still acceptable to do at pro level when under no pressure. Well just let me say that in a year or two of koreans getting into the game that will no longer be the case. Hell just watch CS in a more mature game like DOTA and compare the difficulty and performance of good players, its a world of difference. AAAANNNNDDDDD this is where I throw up in my mouth because another Dota snob with no understanding of lol comes in to bash it.
Seriously? I prefer LoL to DOTA in a lot of aspects, but its pretty inarguable that really good Dota players are far better at CSing and do so under a more difficult system than 99% of Leagues pros. You can spend a few hours watching streams and see this fairly easily.
If you actually want to argue with me then go for it but stop trashing and labeling me with no backing whatsoever.
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On January 20 2012 08:00 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2012 07:39 overt wrote:On January 20 2012 06:52 BlackMagister wrote:
I think Hidden meant top LoL players make a lot of mistakes. LoL scene hence has a pretty bad skill level if top players are still making that many mistakes. Skill ceiling is not the correct term he should have used which caused a lot of confusion. While I don't know for sure because I don't even watch SC2 anymore I would imagine you see pro players make mistakes every game. 'Cause they made mistakes in Brood War too. You can't find a sport or video game where the top players don't make obvious mistakes from time to time and if you are really knowledgeable about the sport/game you're watching you'll probably notice tons of minor mistakes too. Like, I don't think top LoL players make more mistakes than people who play other games. Their mistakes are just a lot more noticeable and there are 10 dudes playing at once as opposed to 2 in StarCraft. You might not catch when a pro StarCraft player mis-clicks and builds more Zealots than he should have as easily as you'll catch a LoL player missing three last hits. As someone who watches a lot of BW, LoL pros are flat out bad compared to decent SC players, at least mechanically. Stuff like missing CS is just basic stuff that is still acceptable to do at pro level when under no pressure. Well just let me say that in a year or two of koreans getting into the game that will no longer be the case. Hell just watch CS in a more mature game like DOTA and compare the difficulty and performance of good players, its a world of difference.
Koreans having been playing for 1-2 years, they lost dem tourneys and they don't do to well in solo queue either(like any other top player). Haven't seen a korean with ~200cs at the 20min mark once.
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United States37500 Posts
On January 20 2012 08:00 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2012 07:39 overt wrote:On January 20 2012 06:52 BlackMagister wrote:
I think Hidden meant top LoL players make a lot of mistakes. LoL scene hence has a pretty bad skill level if top players are still making that many mistakes. Skill ceiling is not the correct term he should have used which caused a lot of confusion. While I don't know for sure because I don't even watch SC2 anymore I would imagine you see pro players make mistakes every game. 'Cause they made mistakes in Brood War too. You can't find a sport or video game where the top players don't make obvious mistakes from time to time and if you are really knowledgeable about the sport/game you're watching you'll probably notice tons of minor mistakes too. Like, I don't think top LoL players make more mistakes than people who play other games. Their mistakes are just a lot more noticeable and there are 10 dudes playing at once as opposed to 2 in StarCraft. You might not catch when a pro StarCraft player mis-clicks and builds more Zealots than he should have as easily as you'll catch a LoL player missing three last hits. As someone who watches a lot of BW, LoL pros are flat out bad compared to decent SC players, at least mechanically. Stuff like missing CS is just basic stuff that is still acceptable to do at pro level when under no pressure. Well just let me say that in a year or two of koreans getting into the game that will no longer be the case. Hell just watch CS in a more mature game like DOTA and compare the difficulty and performance of good players, its a world of difference.
More mature game... like DotA? Did I read correctly?
Regardless, how about you not come into a subforum and start making blanket statements about a game? Criticism of individual players are a bit more grounded than your claim that "everyone is bad".
Thanks.
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On January 20 2012 08:11 JackDino wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2012 08:00 sob3k wrote:On January 20 2012 07:39 overt wrote:On January 20 2012 06:52 BlackMagister wrote:
I think Hidden meant top LoL players make a lot of mistakes. LoL scene hence has a pretty bad skill level if top players are still making that many mistakes. Skill ceiling is not the correct term he should have used which caused a lot of confusion. While I don't know for sure because I don't even watch SC2 anymore I would imagine you see pro players make mistakes every game. 'Cause they made mistakes in Brood War too. You can't find a sport or video game where the top players don't make obvious mistakes from time to time and if you are really knowledgeable about the sport/game you're watching you'll probably notice tons of minor mistakes too. Like, I don't think top LoL players make more mistakes than people who play other games. Their mistakes are just a lot more noticeable and there are 10 dudes playing at once as opposed to 2 in StarCraft. You might not catch when a pro StarCraft player mis-clicks and builds more Zealots than he should have as easily as you'll catch a LoL player missing three last hits. As someone who watches a lot of BW, LoL pros are flat out bad compared to decent SC players, at least mechanically. Stuff like missing CS is just basic stuff that is still acceptable to do at pro level when under no pressure. Well just let me say that in a year or two of koreans getting into the game that will no longer be the case. Hell just watch CS in a more mature game like DOTA and compare the difficulty and performance of good players, its a world of difference. Koreans having been playing for 1-2 years, they lost dem tourneys and they don't do to well in solo queue either(like any other top player). Haven't seen a korean with ~200cs at the 20min mark once.
Truly competitive leagues is just starting up worldwide, especially in Korea with the latest tourney announcements. Once they establish serious teams and teamhouses they will get very good. I mean obviously, if you play any game with the intensity that organized korean gamers do you will become elite level, to say that LoL is a game that wont be dominated by the people who spend by far the most time and effort on it is either implying racism or that the game has a low skill ceiling.
On January 20 2012 08:17 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2012 08:00 sob3k wrote:On January 20 2012 07:39 overt wrote:On January 20 2012 06:52 BlackMagister wrote:
I think Hidden meant top LoL players make a lot of mistakes. LoL scene hence has a pretty bad skill level if top players are still making that many mistakes. Skill ceiling is not the correct term he should have used which caused a lot of confusion. While I don't know for sure because I don't even watch SC2 anymore I would imagine you see pro players make mistakes every game. 'Cause they made mistakes in Brood War too. You can't find a sport or video game where the top players don't make obvious mistakes from time to time and if you are really knowledgeable about the sport/game you're watching you'll probably notice tons of minor mistakes too. Like, I don't think top LoL players make more mistakes than people who play other games. Their mistakes are just a lot more noticeable and there are 10 dudes playing at once as opposed to 2 in StarCraft. You might not catch when a pro StarCraft player mis-clicks and builds more Zealots than he should have as easily as you'll catch a LoL player missing three last hits. As someone who watches a lot of BW, LoL pros are flat out bad compared to decent SC players, at least mechanically. Stuff like missing CS is just basic stuff that is still acceptable to do at pro level when under no pressure. Well just let me say that in a year or two of koreans getting into the game that will no longer be the case. Hell just watch CS in a more mature game like DOTA and compare the difficulty and performance of good players, its a world of difference. More mature game... like DotA? Did I read correctly? Regardless, how about you not come into a subforum and start making blanket statements about a game? Criticism of individual players are a bit more grounded than your claim that "everyone is bad". Thanks.
I think you misunderstood me...DotA has been around and had a competitive scene considerably longer than LoL. Just like BW is a more mature scene than SC2. I didn't mean Dota is for "adults" or something.
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he didn't mean maturity as in the playerbase
he meant maturity as in the age, herp
as in, dota has been around (nearly?) a decade, and people who have played it for all those years are very strong mechanically compared to LoL players, who have been playing for less time
and he's right... dota last hitting is much harder wtih denying in place and not every champ having spells to clear waves, and yet dota pros are much better at it. nothing offensive about that, it's jsut true
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Finland33997 Posts
Well um to be fair...
I don't think any LoL player is even remotely close to some of the chinese DotA players, it's true that the game has a much higher skill level at the top
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On January 20 2012 08:18 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2012 08:11 JackDino wrote:On January 20 2012 08:00 sob3k wrote:On January 20 2012 07:39 overt wrote:On January 20 2012 06:52 BlackMagister wrote:
I think Hidden meant top LoL players make a lot of mistakes. LoL scene hence has a pretty bad skill level if top players are still making that many mistakes. Skill ceiling is not the correct term he should have used which caused a lot of confusion. While I don't know for sure because I don't even watch SC2 anymore I would imagine you see pro players make mistakes every game. 'Cause they made mistakes in Brood War too. You can't find a sport or video game where the top players don't make obvious mistakes from time to time and if you are really knowledgeable about the sport/game you're watching you'll probably notice tons of minor mistakes too. Like, I don't think top LoL players make more mistakes than people who play other games. Their mistakes are just a lot more noticeable and there are 10 dudes playing at once as opposed to 2 in StarCraft. You might not catch when a pro StarCraft player mis-clicks and builds more Zealots than he should have as easily as you'll catch a LoL player missing three last hits. As someone who watches a lot of BW, LoL pros are flat out bad compared to decent SC players, at least mechanically. Stuff like missing CS is just basic stuff that is still acceptable to do at pro level when under no pressure. Well just let me say that in a year or two of koreans getting into the game that will no longer be the case. Hell just watch CS in a more mature game like DOTA and compare the difficulty and performance of good players, its a world of difference. Koreans having been playing for 1-2 years, they lost dem tourneys and they don't do to well in solo queue either(like any other top player). Haven't seen a korean with ~200cs at the 20min mark once. Truly competitive leagues is just starting up worldwide, especially in Korea with the latest tourney announcements. Once they establish serious teams and teamhouses they will get very good. I mean obviously, if you play any game with the intensity that organized korean gamers do you will become elite level, to say that LoL is a game that wont be dominated by the people who spend by far the most time and effort on it is either implying racism or that the game has a low skill ceiling.
I would say that NA teams practice close to as much as the Korean teams do. Streaming has enabled NA players to play LoL for like 8 or more hours a day which wasn't something that was possible in Brood War. Teams like CLG and TSM scrim just as often as teams like MiG do. Due to streaming the NA teams can have a very rigorous practice schedule just like Korean pros did for Brood War.
I don't understand what you mean by "implying racism." If anyone's being racist it's the people who insist that the Korean or Chinese players will dominate the LoL scene. If the NA teams like CLG and TSM continue scrimming and playing solo queue as much as they currently do they're gonna stay top teams.
edit:
afaik, the only thing the Korean teams do that CLG/TSM and other NA teams don't do is review and talk about their replays. I don't know enough about the EU scene but I would assume top EU teams like CLG.eu and SK solo queue and scrim just as much as NA and the Korean teams do.
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On January 20 2012 08:11 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2012 08:03 Two_DoWn wrote:On January 20 2012 08:00 sob3k wrote:On January 20 2012 07:39 overt wrote:On January 20 2012 06:52 BlackMagister wrote:
I think Hidden meant top LoL players make a lot of mistakes. LoL scene hence has a pretty bad skill level if top players are still making that many mistakes. Skill ceiling is not the correct term he should have used which caused a lot of confusion. While I don't know for sure because I don't even watch SC2 anymore I would imagine you see pro players make mistakes every game. 'Cause they made mistakes in Brood War too. You can't find a sport or video game where the top players don't make obvious mistakes from time to time and if you are really knowledgeable about the sport/game you're watching you'll probably notice tons of minor mistakes too. Like, I don't think top LoL players make more mistakes than people who play other games. Their mistakes are just a lot more noticeable and there are 10 dudes playing at once as opposed to 2 in StarCraft. You might not catch when a pro StarCraft player mis-clicks and builds more Zealots than he should have as easily as you'll catch a LoL player missing three last hits. As someone who watches a lot of BW, LoL pros are flat out bad compared to decent SC players, at least mechanically. Stuff like missing CS is just basic stuff that is still acceptable to do at pro level when under no pressure. Well just let me say that in a year or two of koreans getting into the game that will no longer be the case. Hell just watch CS in a more mature game like DOTA and compare the difficulty and performance of good players, its a world of difference. AAAANNNNDDDDD this is where I throw up in my mouth because another Dota snob with no understanding of lol comes in to bash it. Seriously? I prefer LoL to DOTA in a lot of aspects, but its pretty inarguable that really good Dota players are far better at CSing and do so under a more difficult system than 99% of Leagues pros. You can spend a few hours watching streams and see this fairly easily. If you actually want to argue with me then go for it but stop trashing and labeling me with no backing whatsoever.
If you dont want to be labeled, then dont say retarded shit.
1- If the game was REALLY that much easier than dota, how come the koreans and chinese, who have had the game SINCE RELEASE, and now have their very own servers, (China for about a year now I think, Korea more recently) why arent they having perfect cs in tournaments? The Koreans and Chinese were supposed to stomp at WCG. The opposite happened.
Now, why is this? Simply put, after a certain point, the value of the ability to cs drops off CONSIDERABLY. Its an economics concept known as diminishing marginal returns. If one person has 20 more cs than someone else, that is pretty considerable, especially if the gap is 20-0. But at 200-180? That gap means less. 300-280? Pretty much nonexistant. And given that top bot lane pairs (since it IS a team effort bot lane) already get at least 5 creeps per wave, the actual room for improvement is pretty damn low, and also mostly meaningless because of the diminishing return it gives.
2- LoL is not about mechanics. It is about knowledge. Hopefully I dont need to explain this, because I'm just not going to go through this again.
3- Solo q and scrims are worthless. Look at TSM. Everyone was bashing on them for losing scrims recently, then they go out and decimate every team they face at IEM today. Dont base your opinion of a game or people's skill level on meaningless games. I mean, am I gonna have to go all Allen Iverson on you? Practice? Your talking about PRACTICE?
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While from a theoretical standpoint that seems great that DotA players are better mechanically, the problem is that there's no evidence of it happening. Players like Vigoss and Chu8 have all tried LoL and they've all had trouble being good players. When I see Chu8 playing even farmfest botlane with Caitlyn (arguably the champion who is easiest to orb walk with) I still see a lot of mechanical errors.
While it's true that players with a DotA background have an advantage (hi Doublelift), I don't think it's a gamebreaker. And at the end of the day, LoL isn't all about mechanics. Vigoss himself said that winning in LoL is more challenging than DotA because there's so much decision making.
On January 20 2012 08:23 Two_DoWn wrote:
The Koreans and Chinese were supposed to stomp at WCG. The opposite happened.
Just a little off topic, but iG actually came down with food poisoning. HSGG said it was kinda unfair and ruined the match for both teams. Although EDG don't have an excuse.
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Apparently they compressed the ranked 5v5 ladder a few days ago.
To sum up, as of this patch teams created by highly skilled players will no longer start out with extremely high ratings, and, as a result, these teams will now have to play more games to reach the top of the ladder. Along with these changes, we will also be adjusting the ratings of current teams on the live ladders. This is to ensure that newly created teams have the opportunity to compete against teams that were created before these changes were in effect. Here's what you can expect:
All teams will maintain their same position on the ladder. For example, a team that was currently holding the 35th position in the ladder before this rescaling will still remain in 35th place after the rescaling is complete.
Teams that have a rating above 1400 can expect their rating to decrease.
Teams that have a rating below 1000 can expect to see their rating increase.
Teams with a rating between 1000 and 1400 will remain unaffected.
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On January 20 2012 08:18 deskscaress wrote:
he didn't mean maturity as in the playerbase
he meant maturity as in the age, herp
as in, dota has been around (nearly?) a decade, and people who have played it for all those years are very strong mechanically compared to LoL players, who have been playing for less time
and he's right... dota last hitting is much harder wtih denying in place and not every champ having spells to clear waves, and yet dota pros are much better at it. nothing offensive about that, it's jsut true
"Mature" is a word that's lost all usefulness in online video game discussions, thanks largely to the male teenager demographic. Unless you're extremely careful in establishing a very exact context for it people will assume you're referring to either the maturity of a game's players or to a game being "mature" solely because it has blood and "realistic" graphics (e.g. the OoT vs Windwaker debate).
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On January 20 2012 08:23 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2012 08:11 sob3k wrote:On January 20 2012 08:03 Two_DoWn wrote:On January 20 2012 08:00 sob3k wrote:On January 20 2012 07:39 overt wrote:On January 20 2012 06:52 BlackMagister wrote:
I think Hidden meant top LoL players make a lot of mistakes. LoL scene hence has a pretty bad skill level if top players are still making that many mistakes. Skill ceiling is not the correct term he should have used which caused a lot of confusion. While I don't know for sure because I don't even watch SC2 anymore I would imagine you see pro players make mistakes every game. 'Cause they made mistakes in Brood War too. You can't find a sport or video game where the top players don't make obvious mistakes from time to time and if you are really knowledgeable about the sport/game you're watching you'll probably notice tons of minor mistakes too. Like, I don't think top LoL players make more mistakes than people who play other games. Their mistakes are just a lot more noticeable and there are 10 dudes playing at once as opposed to 2 in StarCraft. You might not catch when a pro StarCraft player mis-clicks and builds more Zealots than he should have as easily as you'll catch a LoL player missing three last hits. As someone who watches a lot of BW, LoL pros are flat out bad compared to decent SC players, at least mechanically. Stuff like missing CS is just basic stuff that is still acceptable to do at pro level when under no pressure. Well just let me say that in a year or two of koreans getting into the game that will no longer be the case. Hell just watch CS in a more mature game like DOTA and compare the difficulty and performance of good players, its a world of difference. AAAANNNNDDDDD this is where I throw up in my mouth because another Dota snob with no understanding of lol comes in to bash it. Seriously? I prefer LoL to DOTA in a lot of aspects, but its pretty inarguable that really good Dota players are far better at CSing and do so under a more difficult system than 99% of Leagues pros. You can spend a few hours watching streams and see this fairly easily. If you actually want to argue with me then go for it but stop trashing and labeling me with no backing whatsoever. If you dont want to be labeled, then dont say retarded shit. 1- If the game was REALLY that much easier than dota, how come the koreans and chinese, who have had the game SINCE RELEASE, and now have their very own servers, (China for about a year now I think, Korea more recently) why arent they having perfect cs in tournaments? The Koreans and Chinese were supposed to stomp at WCG. The opposite happened. Now, why is this? Simply put, after a certain point, the value of the ability to cs drops off CONSIDERABLY. Its an economics concept known as diminishing marginal returns. If one person has 20 more cs than someone else, that is pretty considerable, especially if the gap is 20-0. But at 200-180? That gap means less. 300-280? Pretty much nonexistant. And given that top bot lane pairs (since it IS a team effort bot lane) already get at least 5 creeps per wave, the actual room for improvement is pretty damn low, and also mostly meaningless because of the diminishing return it gives. 2- LoL is not about mechanics. It is about knowledge. Hopefully I dont need to explain this, because I'm just not going to go through this again. 3- Solo q and scrims are worthless. Look at TSM. Everyone was bashing on them for losing scrims recently, then they go out and decimate every team they face at IEM today. Dont base your opinion of a game or people's skill level on meaningless games. I mean, am I gonna have to go all Allen Iverson on you? Practice? Your talking about PRACTICE?
How do you acquire knowledge without intense targeted and coached practice?
If you think practice is worthless in the face of smarts and talent I dont know what to say to you. Just compare what is happening right now in LoL to the beginnings of every sport/esport/game/profession. In the beginning there is a heavy instability and dominance displayed from random people, talent or insights into metagame appear and create huge success for some players. People who don't work as hard dominate because of these factors, then are quickly replaced. Look at early BW or competitive swimming or chess or running. You have all sorts of people coming out of the woodwork and winning/having great results based on new strategies or talent. Then as the game matures people begin to iron out how to play, and the top players rapidly shift to the people who devote an obscene amount of effort to becoming the absolute best. Severe upsets and revolutions become much more uncommon, and teams and individuals who "only" practice for 6 hours a day will literally never again be seen again at top level. Literally every sport and game with a decently high skill ceiling has followed this pattern.
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On January 20 2012 08:23 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2012 08:11 sob3k wrote:On January 20 2012 08:03 Two_DoWn wrote:On January 20 2012 08:00 sob3k wrote:On January 20 2012 07:39 overt wrote:On January 20 2012 06:52 BlackMagister wrote:
I think Hidden meant top LoL players make a lot of mistakes. LoL scene hence has a pretty bad skill level if top players are still making that many mistakes. Skill ceiling is not the correct term he should have used which caused a lot of confusion. While I don't know for sure because I don't even watch SC2 anymore I would imagine you see pro players make mistakes every game. 'Cause they made mistakes in Brood War too. You can't find a sport or video game where the top players don't make obvious mistakes from time to time and if you are really knowledgeable about the sport/game you're watching you'll probably notice tons of minor mistakes too. Like, I don't think top LoL players make more mistakes than people who play other games. Their mistakes are just a lot more noticeable and there are 10 dudes playing at once as opposed to 2 in StarCraft. You might not catch when a pro StarCraft player mis-clicks and builds more Zealots than he should have as easily as you'll catch a LoL player missing three last hits. As someone who watches a lot of BW, LoL pros are flat out bad compared to decent SC players, at least mechanically. Stuff like missing CS is just basic stuff that is still acceptable to do at pro level when under no pressure. Well just let me say that in a year or two of koreans getting into the game that will no longer be the case. Hell just watch CS in a more mature game like DOTA and compare the difficulty and performance of good players, its a world of difference. AAAANNNNDDDDD this is where I throw up in my mouth because another Dota snob with no understanding of lol comes in to bash it. Seriously? I prefer LoL to DOTA in a lot of aspects, but its pretty inarguable that really good Dota players are far better at CSing and do so under a more difficult system than 99% of Leagues pros. You can spend a few hours watching streams and see this fairly easily. If you actually want to argue with me then go for it but stop trashing and labeling me with no backing whatsoever. If you dont want to be labeled, then dont say retarded shit. 1- If the game was REALLY that much easier than dota, how come the koreans and chinese, who have had the game SINCE RELEASE, and now have their very own servers, (China for about a year now I think, Korea more recently) why arent they having perfect cs in tournaments? The Koreans and Chinese were supposed to stomp at WCG. The opposite happened. Now, why is this? Simply put, after a certain point, the value of the ability to cs drops off CONSIDERABLY. Its an economics concept known as diminishing marginal returns. If one person has 20 more cs than someone else, that is pretty considerable, especially if the gap is 20-0. But at 200-180? That gap means less. 300-280? Pretty much nonexistant. And given that top bot lane pairs (since it IS a team effort bot lane) already get at least 5 creeps per wave, the actual room for improvement is pretty damn low, and also mostly meaningless because of the diminishing return it gives. 2- LoL is not about mechanics. It is about knowledge. Hopefully I dont need to explain this, because I'm just not going to go through this again. 3- Solo q and scrims are worthless. Look at TSM. Everyone was bashing on them for losing scrims recently, then they go out and decimate every team they face at IEM today. Dont base your opinion of a game or people's skill level on meaningless games. I mean, am I gonna have to go all Allen Iverson on you? Practice? Your talking about PRACTICE?
while this is all true. if you were good enough to know you would get 6/6 every group you could set up timings for the team based on 0 kills but 100 cs at x minute --> we do dragon using a set of items we can just afford. the inability of top pros to cs 'properly' is hurting this kind of development in mobas. beyond the "i stack dorans to be stronk early gaeeemm"
im not shitting on players at all, game is young, just look how far sc2 has come in a year. and lol doesnt have the same knowledge that sc2 came in to the world with. you have to compare it more to how starcraft 1 progressed.
what im mostly saying is that when players start landing 100% of last hits we will see some interesting stuff happen even at the high cs marks because of being able to squeeze in more items
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I think the whole point of TwoDown's original consternation is that sob3k was "shitting on players". Everyone here knows that LoL is young and that the competitive scene is still developing, but that's a different story from the players being "flat out bad".
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Anyone who argues that just because League of Legend players don't have great mechanics all the time doesn't understand the game at all.
League of Legends is a game where strategy, positioning, situational awareness, etc. etc. are magnified greatly compared to even DotA. That being said, the current crop of players are nowhere near the level of DotA pro players because of competition, not because one game is necessarily harder than the other. The DotA competition scene creates better players because their scene is far more mature and has an established and grounded competition scene with respected leagues, tournaments, etc. that provide players a place to sharpen their skills outside of public play (which even solo que in League of Legends is).
The competition scene of LoL is still within its infancy stages. How else would you explain how someone like chu8 who could instantly roll his way into the top of the ELO ladder within 3 months? People who said Chu8 was bad are kidding themselves. The guy literally walked into League with very little experienced, stomped his way to the top (literally), and was on one of the best NA teams for awhile. I think the metagame of League still has alot more to offer and alot more to develop.
League has no established competitive infrastructure like DotA, so obviously you will see pros with weaker mechanics, tactics, situational awareness, etc. than you are used to in DotA. The competition is extremely fierce in DotA compared to League; there are a HANDFUL of teams in League that can beat the top 3 teams right now. There are a truckload of DotA teams that can pretty much beat everyone, including even lower to mid tier Chinese teams, especially if said low/mid tier Chinese team makes a small mistake. That kind of competition breeds more refined play; right now League still doesn't have that because of the way their matchmaking system works.
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Wait, did I really need to add the fact that lol players practice pretty damn close to the amount that korean starcraft team houses do? Have you ever LOOKED at the hours live underneath a stream?
And Chu was never one of the top players. Maybe if you wanted to stretch the list to 500-1000 players you could fit him in. But that is a very large difference between competitive player and high elo.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/GVOE0.jpg)
