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wits actually seems like a pretty clever buy in that situation, the attack reset is like a built in attack speed bonus for nasus, so there's synergy there, and there's no way just a wits is going to put you over the point where you're actually losing attack frames because of conflict between attack speed and Q. It also means he can't just buy a chain vest and completely neuter you, which is nice.
Another possibility is to go something like philo chalice, max E and turn the lane into a guaranteed farm war. Alternatively you could go a 'normal' build and when he inevitably stacks armor, swap with your mid who will blow him up.
On January 31 2012 05:17 barbsq wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 05:05 zer0das wrote:On January 31 2012 04:40 Two_DoWn wrote:
Wits does nothing for Nasus. In most situations I would agree, but I feel like Singed is a special circumstance. The extra sustained damage Wit's End gives you is a pretty big deal when you wither him and are trying to kill him because he overestimated himself. I thought it was stupid too, but someone suggested it to me in a match, and it worked way better than I thought it would. Eventually you sell it off of course, but when we're talking about surviving and not letting him bully you out of lane it does the job. i can't say I've ever been in a position to just sell off wits end. in any case, I don't really get how wits somehow helps you as a damage item more vs singed than, say, a zeal + phage for a trinity later on? In general, nasus doesn't scale terribly well with aspeed, so you're basically getting it for mr and a damage proc, which just seems kinda silly, and, all in all, you shouldn't even really worry about singed and just try to avoid him. Nasus is not really a peeler or a defensive sort of bruiser, so it seems kinda silly to try to go after singed.
Pretty sure the discussion is about lane. In my experience if you don't do something weird singed will farm under your tower and generally molest you in whatever way he likes in that matchup.
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On January 31 2012 05:00 barbsq wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 04:37 zer0das wrote:On January 31 2012 04:06 Mogwai wrote:On January 31 2012 02:57 zer0das wrote:On January 31 2012 02:46 Mogwai wrote:
hmm, that's odd, I've always felt like I get to bully nasus really hard with singed. You do, it's just that eventually Nasus can deal with you. Least if their jungler isn't asleep and they play smart. I feel like after Merc Treads and Wit's End I can stand even with Singed and not be terribly afraid, with an Aegis I can start trying to kill him somewhere other than my tower. The last time I played this matchup as Nasus was pretty nightmarishly annoying, because he had a jungle Skarner helping him. My Nocturne did a really good of being there at the approriate time though. It felt like slogging up a moutain covered in mud and ice though... the entire time I'm seething thinking "Oh just wait you SOB... just wait." wit's end nasus.... what? anyway, singed totally fucks nasus in later teamfights too, I feel like I'm going crazy or something listening to this conversation. 75% AoE slow + a displacement ability CRUSHES Melee with no gap closer. You said you bully Nasus, how else is Nasus going to get a bunch of free magic resist and damage early? The main issue in the matchup for Nasus is surviving early while farming effectively, if you can do that, you've pretty much won. A Force of Nature would work- except the fact it takes a crapton of money to get it, and the early pressure makes it hard to save up for that. Stack three Null Magic's, turn them into Merc's, Wit's End, and Aegis (or Guardian Angel)... bam, lots of MR and easy to save up for it, and you're a legitimate threat to kill Singed much sooner. I feel like it's the opposite as far as who is more useful. Singed tries to intiate, you wither him. Singed now either has to either retreat or take a lot of unanswered damage. The extra few seconds is a big deal. If your team has more things to peel him, it makes it even worse for him. Wither comes off cooldown pretty shortly after it ends with 40% CDR too. It's not like Nasus is forced to run into the entire enemy team and q the AD carry to be useful. i can't really answer how the lane interactions work, but I went thru a singed phase, and I can tell you that singed doesn't give a shit if he gets either cc'd or if ppl even attack him. And even tho I havn't actually played him in awhile, I'm pretty confident that hasn't really changed.
Singed isn't good at initiation anyways, so I think it's a mistake to say he's not useful in a teamfight just because of that. The idea is that if you wither him, then that's one wither that's not on someone who actually cares. And it still won't stop Singed from zoning out the AD carry once the teamfight starts, or flipping Nasus out of his team.
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On January 31 2012 05:18 UniversalSnip wrote:wits actually seems like a pretty clever buy in that situation, the attack reset is like a built in attack speed bonus for nasus, so there's synergy there, and there's no way just a wits is going to put you over the point where you're actually losing attack frames because of conflict between attack speed and Q. It also means he can't just buy a chain vest and completely neuter you, which is nice. Another possibility is to go something like philo chalice, max E and turn the lane into a guaranteed farm war. Alternatively you could go a 'normal' build and when he inevitably stacks armor, swap with your mid who will blow him up. Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 05:17 barbsq wrote:On January 31 2012 05:05 zer0das wrote:On January 31 2012 04:40 Two_DoWn wrote:
Wits does nothing for Nasus. In most situations I would agree, but I feel like Singed is a special circumstance. The extra sustained damage Wit's End gives you is a pretty big deal when you wither him and are trying to kill him because he overestimated himself. I thought it was stupid too, but someone suggested it to me in a match, and it worked way better than I thought it would. Eventually you sell it off of course, but when we're talking about surviving and not letting him bully you out of lane it does the job. i can't say I've ever been in a position to just sell off wits end. in any case, I don't really get how wits somehow helps you as a damage item more vs singed than, say, a zeal + phage for a trinity later on? In general, nasus doesn't scale terribly well with aspeed, so you're basically getting it for mr and a damage proc, which just seems kinda silly, and, all in all, you shouldn't even really worry about singed and just try to avoid him. Nasus is not really a peeler or a defensive sort of bruiser, so it seems kinda silly to try to go after singed. Pretty sure the discussion is about lane. In my experience if you don't do something weird singed will farm under your tower and generally molest you in whatever way he likes in that matchup.
yeah, i kno it's about laning, but I have little to no experince with that lane matchup and only the basic teamfight theory of the two champions so I wanted to avoid as many lane-specific suggestions as possible, since i don't actually know anything about it. Prob shouldn't have even said anything 
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Does that site where they list patch history by champion still exist? Can somebody please give me a link? Been trying to find it on google and failing for a couple days.
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On January 31 2012 05:36 arnath wrote:
Does that site where they list patch history by champion still exist? Can somebody please give me a link? Been trying to find it on google and failing for a couple days.
http://www.lol-patch.com/
what you're looking for?
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I dunno. If you are talking about wits JUST for laning, then I am even more in favor of just getting a negatron cloak, saving 1400 gold, and using that to buy your big ticket items faster.
Like Philo/hog/negatron and singed should not be able to TOUCH you in lane. After all, you just care about being healthy enough to farm.
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Does anyone here sit on a good guide on freezing lanes etc. or care to explain exactly what it is and how to do it properly?
Cheers 
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On January 31 2012 05:41 Arevall wrote:Does anyone here sit on a good guide on freezing lanes etc. or care to explain exactly what it is and how to do it properly? Cheers
Freezing the lane depends on the initial factor of having an enemy minion wave outnumber your own. Ideally this means having like 2-3 minions left in the enemy wave while yours is dead. That way the enemy minions will have 9 or so while your wave has 6. At that point, just wait till the very last possible second to last hit everything in order to maintain the enemy minion advantage.
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On January 31 2012 05:38 Two_DoWn wrote:
I dunno. If you are talking about wits JUST for laning, then I am even more in favor of just getting a negatron cloak, saving 1400 gold, and using that to buy your big ticket items faster.
Like Philo/hog/negatron and singed should not be able to TOUCH you in lane. After all, you just care about being healthy enough to farm.
Hah, what? It's an awful matchup. If you go philo hog he's gonna stick his bottle up your butt.
It's like saying you're going to beat pantheon by going philo hog chain vest, because after all you only care about being healthy enough to farm.
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On January 31 2012 05:46 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 05:41 Arevall wrote:Does anyone here sit on a good guide on freezing lanes etc. or care to explain exactly what it is and how to do it properly? Cheers Freezing the lane depends on the initial factor of having an enemy minion wave outnumber your own. Ideally this means having like 2-3 minions left in the enemy wave while yours is dead. That way the enemy minions will have 9 or so while your wave has 6. At that point, just wait till the very last possible second to last hit everything in order to maintain the enemy minion advantage.
Is there no other factor? I'm already doing this and I always felt I was missing something to freeze the lane. So the only other part is finding some way to force this minion "advantage" for the opponent?
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On January 31 2012 04:37 zer0das wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 04:06 Mogwai wrote:On January 31 2012 02:57 zer0das wrote:On January 31 2012 02:46 Mogwai wrote:
hmm, that's odd, I've always felt like I get to bully nasus really hard with singed. You do, it's just that eventually Nasus can deal with you. Least if their jungler isn't asleep and they play smart. I feel like after Merc Treads and Wit's End I can stand even with Singed and not be terribly afraid, with an Aegis I can start trying to kill him somewhere other than my tower. The last time I played this matchup as Nasus was pretty nightmarishly annoying, because he had a jungle Skarner helping him. My Nocturne did a really good of being there at the approriate time though. It felt like slogging up a moutain covered in mud and ice though... the entire time I'm seething thinking "Oh just wait you SOB... just wait." wit's end nasus.... what? anyway, singed totally fucks nasus in later teamfights too, I feel like I'm going crazy or something listening to this conversation. 75% AoE slow + a displacement ability CRUSHES Melee with no gap closer. You said you bully Nasus, how else is Nasus going to get a bunch of free magic resist and damage early? The main issue in the matchup for Nasus is surviving early while farming effectively, if you can do that, you've pretty much won. A Force of Nature would work- except the fact it takes a crapton of money to get it, and the early pressure makes it hard to save up for that. Stack three Null Magic's, turn them into Merc's, Wit's End, and Aegis (or Guardian Angel)... bam, lots of MR and easy to save up for it, and you're a legitimate threat to kill Singed much sooner. I feel like it's the opposite as far as who is more useful. Singed tries to intiate, you wither him. Singed now either has to either retreat or take a lot of unanswered damage. The extra few seconds is a big deal. If your team has more things to peel him, it makes it even worse for him. Wither comes off cooldown pretty shortly after it ends with 40% CDR too. It's not like Nasus is forced to run into the entire enemy team and q the AD carry to be useful.
1. The big issue is that singed puts out relatively huge sustained magic DPS to Melee characters who have to be in predictable locations, and can disengage from Melee characters at will with an absurd slow and repositioning skill. The ways that melee can deal with this is: a. Ranged Nuke and b. Instant Gap Closer. Nasus has neither.
2. Wit's end is garbage vs. Singed because, again, sustain attacks aren't feasible vs. Singed because he disengages at will. You try to stand there and hit him a lot and he take one hit in the face, then flings you back into his poison trail and creeps (who are now agroing you btw) and then covers your retreat path in mega adhesive and chunks you for a ton of damage while you try to hit him. Not to mention that wit's is generally bad on Nasus and even if it were a good answer to singed, I'd still consider it a win to make him cash out 2000 gold on a bad item later on.
3. And regarding withering singed, hell, I'll take you blowing your massive attack speed debuff on the tank who doesn't attack and has built in CC reduction over hitting my carry with it every single day of the week. If Singed is enough of a problem that Nasus has to sub-optimally use Wither on him, again, that sounds like a win for Singed in my book.
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On January 31 2012 05:54 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 05:46 Two_DoWn wrote:On January 31 2012 05:41 Arevall wrote:Does anyone here sit on a good guide on freezing lanes etc. or care to explain exactly what it is and how to do it properly? Cheers Freezing the lane depends on the initial factor of having an enemy minion wave outnumber your own. Ideally this means having like 2-3 minions left in the enemy wave while yours is dead. That way the enemy minions will have 9 or so while your wave has 6. At that point, just wait till the very last possible second to last hit everything in order to maintain the enemy minion advantage. Is there no other factor? I'm already doing this and I always felt I was missing something to freeze the lane. So the only other part is finding some way to force this minion "advantage" for the opponent?
I believe that once the enemy wave has an advantage it should snowball (9 vs 6 will turn into 10 vs 6 into 11 vs 6 as each new wave comes in). At some point, it should theoretically reach your tower - then you have to start tanking the wave so that it stays just out of range - that's a little trickier.
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On January 31 2012 05:38 barbsq wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 05:36 arnath wrote:
Does that site where they list patch history by champion still exist? Can somebody please give me a link? Been trying to find it on google and failing for a couple days. http://www.lol-patch.com/what you're looking for?
the LoL wikia also gives patch history for every champion, it's hidden in the background tab underneath the lore but it's there.
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It annoys me how many people think of the low cs support as a problem.
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On January 31 2012 06:24 Craton wrote:
It annoys me how many people think of the low cs support as a problem.
Hence my scare quotes on "solve" and omission of the word "problem". I thought it significant since historically Riot has viewed 0 CS as a problem, but Gatsby's idea seems to represent a shift in their thinking.
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On January 31 2012 06:24 Craton wrote:
It annoys me how many people think of the low cs support as a problem.
Well, if 0 support cs stay the norm, riot need to release 10 supports who can play like that in a row, because i'm fucking tired of playing Janna/Sona/Soraka/Taric/Alistar.
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On January 31 2012 06:27 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 06:24 Craton wrote:
It annoys me how many people think of the low cs support as a problem. Well, if 0 support cs stay the norm, riot need to release 10 supports who can play like that in a row, because i'm fucking tired of playing Janna/Sona/Soraka/Taric/Alistar.
Well those are the "classic" supports but you can play stuff like support gp,nunu,blitz,mao,leona,etc.
I mean,they aren't Sona but they aren't really that terrible to play with if your ad knows how to play with a no sustain support.
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On January 31 2012 05:58 Mogwai wrote:
2. Wit's end is garbage vs. Singed because, again, sustain attacks aren't feasible vs. Singed because he disengages at will. You try to stand there and hit him a lot and he take one hit in the face, then flings you back into his poison trail and creeps (who are now agroing you btw) and then covers your retreat path in mega adhesive and chunks you for a ton of damage while you try to hit him. Not to mention that wit's is generally bad on Nasus and even if it were a good answer to singed, I'd still consider it a win to make him cash out 2000 gold on a bad item later on.
This is a really unrealistic engagement scenario. Nasus is almost never going to be the one initiating on Singed (least without the aid of a jungler). The fight is probably on or near Nasus's turret because Singed is inevtiably going to push the lane. Singed is probably the one initiating the fight with a fling (maybe taking a tower hit or two in the process), following up with a megadhesive, and following Nasus back as far as he can to to the tower.
Once you fling me I'm going to immediately wither you if you start running towards me. Now you can choose to run away or engage me. You're not getting two free flings. Yes, you can get away if you want, but people generally play Singed aggressively, so he's going to go for the kill if he feels like he can do it. This is where Wit's End comes in handy, because if Singed chooses to engage you, your magic resistance is bumping up, you're leeching more life due to the faster attack speed, and you have some extra magic damage on top of that.
Whether or not it is worth it is another thing, but I feel like people are overlooking the fact that doing enough damage to keep Singed honest is part of the equation to not getting destroyed in lane. I just played the matchup on the Singed side, the guy went for a fast force of nature after his philostone, and I still rendered him useless.
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On January 31 2012 06:31 TheKefka wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 06:27 Noocta wrote:On January 31 2012 06:24 Craton wrote:
It annoys me how many people think of the low cs support as a problem. Well, if 0 support cs stay the norm, riot need to release 10 supports who can play like that in a row, because i'm fucking tired of playing Janna/Sona/Soraka/Taric/Alistar. Well those are the "classic" supports but you can play stuff like support gp,nunu,blitz,mao,leona,etc. I mean,they aren't Sona but they aren't really that terrible to play with if your ad knows how to play with a no sustain support.
Easiest way to make more viable supports: Nerf the current OP ones until previous niche non-supporters become viable. Especially sustain, remove sustain and suddenly the support picture looks pretty different.
But if you want to do it the hard way by introducing 10 completely new champions specifically for the support role that few people will buy or play because they want to play carry, you could do that too.
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EPT
