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On January 13 2012 05:14 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 05:01 Requizen wrote:On January 13 2012 04:58 Seuss wrote:On January 12 2012 20:33 RogerX wrote:
Well I agree, we'll just have to see his numbers when he becomes released into the wild.
well since his ult scales off AP and AD im curious to how his new build will be.
lol something metaish with a mix of AP perhaps?
lantern, Warmogs, atmas, ryalis, rageblade
trololol? idk, i can't think of an efficent build The thread moves faster than I can reverse engineer numbers, so pages have elapsed since the Jax discussion. However, here are the numbers on Jax' ult as they were in the spotlight. 20/35/50 AP/AD base, +20% of AP as additional AP and +20% of Bonus AD as additional AD. Bonuses are determined at cast time and do not update as buffs/procs fade. That ain't bad at all. Probably not strong enough to warrant building straight damage over tanky dps/bruiser/metablargl/whatever you want to call it, but pretty damn good. Do you happen to know the CD on it? Other than that, I kind of want to know the actual numbers on his new Counterstrike. I'm not on the bandwagon of "worst change ever", but they'll have to be pretty careful of making it too bad/good. The CD looks to be 75s at level 12 and 60s at level 18, so I assume it's probably 90s at level 6. The new Counterstrike reads to me like Jax can win exchanges at will against Tryndamere and Udyr, but I don't know of any other solo top champions who primarily auto-attack.
The new counterstrike is trash against trynd, the old counterstrike is way better in lane. In no way is 2sec dodge on a 10sec cd better than having a passive dodge against autoattackers.
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On January 13 2012 05:42 Redox wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 04:16 Two_DoWn wrote:On January 13 2012 04:09 Goshawk. wrote:SK replaces AL.mTw after troubles between AbsoluteLegends and mTw. Furthermore Curse will replace APictureOfAGoose who have two members that could not come to Kiev. Chinese team iG had to be replaced by French Sypher due to no other Chinese team being available.
http://www.esl-world.net/masters/season6/kiev/For IEM Kiev. Real tourney. TSM has no excuse if they lose that tourney. An already slumping dignitas without their best player, a gutted SK, Crs. Only 2 teams I can see even coming close to competing are M5 and Sypher, and Sypher is a b teir euro team and M5 has only looked good in scrims. Lol wat? M5 and aaa are the big favorites for that tournament.
I have a hard time believing AAA is a favorite for anything.
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On January 13 2012 05:44 JackDino wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 05:14 Seuss wrote:On January 13 2012 05:01 Requizen wrote:On January 13 2012 04:58 Seuss wrote:On January 12 2012 20:33 RogerX wrote:
Well I agree, we'll just have to see his numbers when he becomes released into the wild.
well since his ult scales off AP and AD im curious to how his new build will be.
lol something metaish with a mix of AP perhaps?
lantern, Warmogs, atmas, ryalis, rageblade
trololol? idk, i can't think of an efficent build The thread moves faster than I can reverse engineer numbers, so pages have elapsed since the Jax discussion. However, here are the numbers on Jax' ult as they were in the spotlight. 20/35/50 AP/AD base, +20% of AP as additional AP and +20% of Bonus AD as additional AD. Bonuses are determined at cast time and do not update as buffs/procs fade. That ain't bad at all. Probably not strong enough to warrant building straight damage over tanky dps/bruiser/metablargl/whatever you want to call it, but pretty damn good. Do you happen to know the CD on it? Other than that, I kind of want to know the actual numbers on his new Counterstrike. I'm not on the bandwagon of "worst change ever", but they'll have to be pretty careful of making it too bad/good. The CD looks to be 75s at level 12 and 60s at level 18, so I assume it's probably 90s at level 6. The new Counterstrike reads to me like Jax can win exchanges at will against Tryndamere and Udyr, but I don't know of any other solo top champions who primarily auto-attack. The new counterstrike is trash against trynd, the old counterstrike is way better in lane. In no way is 2sec dodge on a 10sec cd better than having a passive dodge against autoattackers.
2 seconds of assured dodge against Trynd can very well block 4 attacks, and then he's stunned for ~1 second. 3 seconds of immunity to Trynd every ~10 seconds is technically better than his 5 seconds of immunity to death every 90 seconds. Of course, not as amazing against AP, but you get the idea.
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Trynd is not going to have 2.0 attack speed until lategame, if at all. Not a relevant scenario for the laning phase.
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On January 13 2012 05:42 Redox wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 04:16 Two_DoWn wrote:On January 13 2012 04:09 Goshawk. wrote:SK replaces AL.mTw after troubles between AbsoluteLegends and mTw. Furthermore Curse will replace APictureOfAGoose who have two members that could not come to Kiev. Chinese team iG had to be replaced by French Sypher due to no other Chinese team being available.
http://www.esl-world.net/masters/season6/kiev/For IEM Kiev. Real tourney. TSM has no excuse if they lose that tourney. An already slumping dignitas without their best player, a gutted SK, Crs. Only 2 teams I can see even coming close to competing are M5 and Sypher, and Sypher is a b teir euro team and M5 has only looked good in scrims. Lol wat? M5 and aaa are the big favorites for that tournament.
The only european team that has proven they can beat an American team on a consistent basis is Fnatic. All the rest have either failed miserably in international tournaments (the vast majority) or been blown up (sk).
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On January 13 2012 05:50 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 05:44 JackDino wrote:On January 13 2012 05:14 Seuss wrote:On January 13 2012 05:01 Requizen wrote:On January 13 2012 04:58 Seuss wrote:On January 12 2012 20:33 RogerX wrote:
Well I agree, we'll just have to see his numbers when he becomes released into the wild.
well since his ult scales off AP and AD im curious to how his new build will be.
lol something metaish with a mix of AP perhaps?
lantern, Warmogs, atmas, ryalis, rageblade
trololol? idk, i can't think of an efficent build The thread moves faster than I can reverse engineer numbers, so pages have elapsed since the Jax discussion. However, here are the numbers on Jax' ult as they were in the spotlight. 20/35/50 AP/AD base, +20% of AP as additional AP and +20% of Bonus AD as additional AD. Bonuses are determined at cast time and do not update as buffs/procs fade. That ain't bad at all. Probably not strong enough to warrant building straight damage over tanky dps/bruiser/metablargl/whatever you want to call it, but pretty damn good. Do you happen to know the CD on it? Other than that, I kind of want to know the actual numbers on his new Counterstrike. I'm not on the bandwagon of "worst change ever", but they'll have to be pretty careful of making it too bad/good. The CD looks to be 75s at level 12 and 60s at level 18, so I assume it's probably 90s at level 6. The new Counterstrike reads to me like Jax can win exchanges at will against Tryndamere and Udyr, but I don't know of any other solo top champions who primarily auto-attack. The new counterstrike is trash against trynd, the old counterstrike is way better in lane. In no way is 2sec dodge on a 10sec cd better than having a passive dodge against autoattackers. 2 seconds of assured dodge against Trynd can very well block 4 attacks, and then he's stunned for ~1 second. 3 seconds of immunity to Trynd every ~10 seconds is technically better than his 5 seconds of immunity to death every 90 seconds. Of course, not as amazing against AP, but you get the idea.
Right now with tabi and 1-2 ranks in E you can completely ignore trynd, moreover, you dont need to waste mana to ignore him. So no, the new counterstrike, in laning atleast, is fucking trash compared to the old one.
Just sounds to me that anyone who thinks the new counterstrike is better, in laning atleast, has never really laned jax. Almost none of the popular tops can really buy a sotd against jax, and if they do, depending on who buys it it doesn't even stop him from farming.
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On January 13 2012 05:51 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 05:42 Redox wrote:On January 13 2012 04:16 Two_DoWn wrote:On January 13 2012 04:09 Goshawk. wrote:SK replaces AL.mTw after troubles between AbsoluteLegends and mTw. Furthermore Curse will replace APictureOfAGoose who have two members that could not come to Kiev. Chinese team iG had to be replaced by French Sypher due to no other Chinese team being available.
http://www.esl-world.net/masters/season6/kiev/For IEM Kiev. Real tourney. TSM has no excuse if they lose that tourney. An already slumping dignitas without their best player, a gutted SK, Crs. Only 2 teams I can see even coming close to competing are M5 and Sypher, and Sypher is a b teir euro team and M5 has only looked good in scrims. Lol wat? M5 and aaa are the big favorites for that tournament. The only european team that has proven they can beat an American team on a consistent basis is Fnatic. All the rest have either failed miserably in international tournaments (the vast majority) or been blown up (sk).
Even TSM would laugh at you for that one. :D
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United States47024 Posts
On January 13 2012 05:50 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 05:44 JackDino wrote:On January 13 2012 05:14 Seuss wrote:On January 13 2012 05:01 Requizen wrote:On January 13 2012 04:58 Seuss wrote:On January 12 2012 20:33 RogerX wrote:
Well I agree, we'll just have to see his numbers when he becomes released into the wild.
well since his ult scales off AP and AD im curious to how his new build will be.
lol something metaish with a mix of AP perhaps?
lantern, Warmogs, atmas, ryalis, rageblade
trololol? idk, i can't think of an efficent build The thread moves faster than I can reverse engineer numbers, so pages have elapsed since the Jax discussion. However, here are the numbers on Jax' ult as they were in the spotlight. 20/35/50 AP/AD base, +20% of AP as additional AP and +20% of Bonus AD as additional AD. Bonuses are determined at cast time and do not update as buffs/procs fade. That ain't bad at all. Probably not strong enough to warrant building straight damage over tanky dps/bruiser/metablargl/whatever you want to call it, but pretty damn good. Do you happen to know the CD on it? Other than that, I kind of want to know the actual numbers on his new Counterstrike. I'm not on the bandwagon of "worst change ever", but they'll have to be pretty careful of making it too bad/good. The CD looks to be 75s at level 12 and 60s at level 18, so I assume it's probably 90s at level 6. The new Counterstrike reads to me like Jax can win exchanges at will against Tryndamere and Udyr, but I don't know of any other solo top champions who primarily auto-attack. The new counterstrike is trash against trynd, the old counterstrike is way better in lane. In no way is 2sec dodge on a 10sec cd better than having a passive dodge against autoattackers. 2 seconds of assured dodge against Trynd can very well block 4 attacks, and then he's stunned for ~1 second. 3 seconds of immunity to Trynd every ~10 seconds is technically better than his 5 seconds of immunity to death every 90 seconds. Of course, not as amazing against AP, but you get the idea.
I'd rather have passive dodge chance during which i can hit Trynd back rather than have an active dodge skill that prevents me from autoattacking. Trynd being unable to hit me is not terribly useful if I can't hit him either.
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On January 13 2012 05:50 Craton wrote:
Trynd is not going to have 2.0 attack speed until lategame, if at all. Not relevant in a laning scenario at all.
Alright, 3 then. Plus the extra 1 or so he'd get while stunned.
My point isn't that it suddenly makes him imbalancedly powerful, but rather that it's not as bad as people are making it out to be. ~3 (maybe 4 at higher ranks) of immunity from all auto attackers isn't horrible. Is it as good as current dodge? Maybe, maybe not. But it is more reliable, that's for sure, and against someone like Trynd or Udyr (or like a Vayne/Kog/Trist), it can save you from death very consistently.
Wait, I take this all back. You can't attack while Counter Striking? What the actual fuck? Like, if you could still auto, that's free trading, but this is just taking you out of the fight so you can proc a stun? That seems.... bad. Like, why?
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United States37500 Posts
I have to say that a lot of people have no idea what it means to be the "favorite" in a tournament. M5 and aAa are nowhere near that kind of status. You win a lot of practice games or scrims? Good job, now do it on the big stage.
The same nonsense happened in BW. There were these rumors of a hotshot practice partner from SKT or CJ who goes on a tear in house ranking tourneys. Then suddenly you have TL.netters who think they're going to dethrone Jaedong.
TSM is the only clear favorite at Kiev. You would even put Dignitas before aAa and M5.
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On January 13 2012 05:54 Redox wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 05:51 Two_DoWn wrote:On January 13 2012 05:42 Redox wrote:On January 13 2012 04:16 Two_DoWn wrote:On January 13 2012 04:09 Goshawk. wrote:SK replaces AL.mTw after troubles between AbsoluteLegends and mTw. Furthermore Curse will replace APictureOfAGoose who have two members that could not come to Kiev. Chinese team iG had to be replaced by French Sypher due to no other Chinese team being available.
http://www.esl-world.net/masters/season6/kiev/For IEM Kiev. Real tourney. TSM has no excuse if they lose that tourney. An already slumping dignitas without their best player, a gutted SK, Crs. Only 2 teams I can see even coming close to competing are M5 and Sypher, and Sypher is a b teir euro team and M5 has only looked good in scrims. Lol wat? M5 and aaa are the big favorites for that tournament. The only european team that has proven they can beat an American team on a consistent basis is Fnatic. All the rest have either failed miserably in international tournaments (the vast majority) or been blown up (sk). Even TSM would laugh at you for that one. :D
Name a proven team that is going to be in this tournament that has gotten past the quarters in a major tourney in the past year.
I went back and checked all the IEMs. Only team that has is TSM (and they have been to the finals). Every other team in this tourney has yet to make it past the group stage. SK isnt the same anymore, Fnatic isnt there, the only IEM that aAa QUALIFIED for is this one.
So how are you going to try to tell me that any one of these teams is a favorite over TSM?
@Neo- Meh, If it was old dig they would for sure be the number 2, but god, an already slumping Dig without their best player AND playcaller? I seriously think Dig may be dead as a top competitive team.
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On January 13 2012 05:51 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 05:42 Redox wrote:On January 13 2012 04:16 Two_DoWn wrote:On January 13 2012 04:09 Goshawk. wrote:SK replaces AL.mTw after troubles between AbsoluteLegends and mTw. Furthermore Curse will replace APictureOfAGoose who have two members that could not come to Kiev. Chinese team iG had to be replaced by French Sypher due to no other Chinese team being available.
http://www.esl-world.net/masters/season6/kiev/For IEM Kiev. Real tourney. TSM has no excuse if they lose that tourney. An already slumping dignitas without their best player, a gutted SK, Crs. Only 2 teams I can see even coming close to competing are M5 and Sypher, and Sypher is a b teir euro team and M5 has only looked good in scrims. Lol wat? M5 and aaa are the big favorites for that tournament. The only european team that has proven they can beat an American team on a consistent basis is Fnatic. All the rest have either failed miserably in international tournaments (the vast majority) or been blown up (sk).
Gotta say though, CLG EU is looking REAL strong. If they can handle pressure situations they'll be a real contender.
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On January 13 2012 05:50 Craton wrote:
Trynd is not going to have 2.0 attack speed until lategame, if at all. Not relevant in a laning scenario at all.
4 attacks is wishful thinking, but the ability is still relevant in a laning scenario. Even if Trynd has only 0.7 attack speed it'll be possible to dodge 2 attacks with a modicum of timing. Unless you have incredible and consistent luck that level of performance is ridiculously improbable with the current Counterstrike.
At the moment Counterstrike grants 10% dodge at rank 1. If you assume every trade involves 10 auto attacks (which can hardly be called a "trade" at that point) the probability of dodging 2 or more attacks is only 26.4%. Even if you increase the number of attacks to 15 you still only have a 45% chance of dodging 2 or more attacks. Anything you can really call a trade is going to be on the order of 4-7 auto attacks at most, meaning 85-95% of the time the new Counterstrike will be better.
All of the %s in the above post were calculated using a binomial distribution calculator.
Edit: Jax very clearly auto-attacks while Counterstriking vs Tryndamere at ~4:55-5:00 in the spotlight.
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Nevermind, I guess its "okay" since it's 100% dodge. Still hate the idea since the only counterplay is a generally terrible and niche item.
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"@Neo- Meh, If it was old dig they would for sure be the number 2, but god, an already slumping Dig without their best player AND playcaller? I seriously think Dig may be dead as a top competitive team."
Wait what? Dignitas just won the last tournament they entered in. Dignitas does well whenever they practise because they have commitment issues. Whenever they practise they do well, whenever they don't have time they slump.
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On January 13 2012 06:05 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 05:50 Craton wrote:
Trynd is not going to have 2.0 attack speed until lategame, if at all. Not relevant in a laning scenario at all. 4 attacks is wishful thinking, but the ability is still relevant in a laning scenario. Even if Trynd has only 0.7 attack speed it'll be possible to dodge 2 attacks with a modicum of timing. Unless you have incredible and consistent luck that level of performance is ridiculously improbable with the current Counterstrike. At the moment Counterstrike grants 10% dodge at rank 1. If you assume every trade involves 10 auto attacks (which can hardly be called a "trade" at that point) the probability of dodging 2 or more attacks is only 26.4%. Even if you increase the number of attacks to 15 you still only have a 45% chance of dodging 2 or more attacks. Anything you can really call a trade is going to be on the order of 4-7 auto attacks at most, meaning 85-95% of the time the new Counterstrike will be better. All of the %s in the above post were calculated using a binomial distribution calculator. Edit: Jax very clearly auto-attacks while Counterstriking vs Tryndamere at ~4:55-5:00 in the spotlight.
It's hard to tell in the timing, as he's still swinging his lantern above his head. Is it an attack or is it the stun damage?
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On January 13 2012 06:10 Craton wrote:
I really don't understand why they kept dodge on Jax in any form. They're already trying to remove the stat in its entirety because it's shitty to play against.
I think the argument for the new dodge is that there's actual counterplay. When dodge is entirely random all you can do is auto-attack and hope. When dodge is a 100% thing for 1.5 seconds you can potentially choose what to do.
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United States37500 Posts
On January 13 2012 06:00 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 05:54 Redox wrote:On January 13 2012 05:51 Two_DoWn wrote:On January 13 2012 05:42 Redox wrote:On January 13 2012 04:16 Two_DoWn wrote:On January 13 2012 04:09 Goshawk. wrote:SK replaces AL.mTw after troubles between AbsoluteLegends and mTw. Furthermore Curse will replace APictureOfAGoose who have two members that could not come to Kiev. Chinese team iG had to be replaced by French Sypher due to no other Chinese team being available.
http://www.esl-world.net/masters/season6/kiev/For IEM Kiev. Real tourney. TSM has no excuse if they lose that tourney. An already slumping dignitas without their best player, a gutted SK, Crs. Only 2 teams I can see even coming close to competing are M5 and Sypher, and Sypher is a b teir euro team and M5 has only looked good in scrims. Lol wat? M5 and aaa are the big favorites for that tournament. The only european team that has proven they can beat an American team on a consistent basis is Fnatic. All the rest have either failed miserably in international tournaments (the vast majority) or been blown up (sk). Even TSM would laugh at you for that one. :D @Neo- Meh, If it was old dig they would for sure be the number 2, but god, an already slumping Dig without their best player AND playcaller? I seriously think Dig may be dead as a top competitive team.
Jatt, as their Jungler, was their playmaker/initiator. I would still consider scarra and Voy better players still. Jatt had more map vision because of his role, thus given play caller status. But I've sat through Dig's vent while they played as 5. They are much, much, much more level headed than other teams, like CLG/TSM. They actually discuss things well during games but to make sure one person had a final say, Jatt was given that responsibilities. That role could be filled by another veteran member, np.
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United States47024 Posts
On January 13 2012 06:11 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 06:05 Seuss wrote:On January 13 2012 05:50 Craton wrote:
Trynd is not going to have 2.0 attack speed until lategame, if at all. Not relevant in a laning scenario at all. 4 attacks is wishful thinking, but the ability is still relevant in a laning scenario. Even if Trynd has only 0.7 attack speed it'll be possible to dodge 2 attacks with a modicum of timing. Unless you have incredible and consistent luck that level of performance is ridiculously improbable with the current Counterstrike. At the moment Counterstrike grants 10% dodge at rank 1. If you assume every trade involves 10 auto attacks (which can hardly be called a "trade" at that point) the probability of dodging 2 or more attacks is only 26.4%. Even if you increase the number of attacks to 15 you still only have a 45% chance of dodging 2 or more attacks. Anything you can really call a trade is going to be on the order of 4-7 auto attacks at most, meaning 85-95% of the time the new Counterstrike will be better. All of the %s in the above post were calculated using a binomial distribution calculator. Edit: Jax very clearly auto-attacks while Counterstriking vs Tryndamere at ~4:55-5:00 in the spotlight. It's hard to tell in the timing, as he's still swinging his lantern above his head. Is it an attack or is it the stun damage?
I'm pretty sure its not an attack. You notice that there's a pretty long delay during Counterstrike where Trynd is not taking damage.
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On January 13 2012 06:10 dooraven wrote:
"@Neo- Meh, If it was old dig they would for sure be the number 2, but god, an already slumping Dig without their best player AND playcaller? I seriously think Dig may be dead as a top competitive team."
Wait what? Dignitas just won the last tournament they entered in. Dignitas does well whenever they practise because they have commitment issues. Whenever they practise they do well, whenever they don't have time they slump.
They won a tourney which was missing 1 of the top 3 US teams, and won the finals over another top 3 team that was missing its usual line up.
Was it a decent accomplishment? Sure. I just dont think they could stand up to a full EG, TSM, or (functioning) CLG.
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EPT
