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Beyonder
Netherlands15103 Posts
On January 12 2012 00:09 Requizen wrote:
So, I know we just had a jungle discussion a few pages back, but I don't really care about the numbers anymore, I find the fact that it's basically encouraging roaming very fun. As someone who prefers jungling for the ganking (and the fact that most of my favorite champs do well there), it's an extremely fun upgrade from the passive "just farm and sometimes gank if a lane is pushed" old jungle, at least in my opinion.
That said, I think this new jungle both opens up new junglers to see play (seeing troll picks like Malphite or Singed chosen pretty often seriously), but also makes the best junglers (Skarner, Udyr, Shaco, Lee Sin) so much better that it's almost terrible not to pick them. Any jungler who falls under the niche of "can AoE clear fast and gank unsuspecting lanes" immediately became the best in the game, almost ban status for some players.
Not that I mind (I jungle Skarner, Udyr, and Riven), but I just thought I'd give my $0.02
I fully agree with you, really love the new jungle. Jungle is also possible far pre lvl 30 now too. I jungled amumu on lvl 4 yesterday succesfully 
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Your options against Trynd are either an AP bruiser or someone who scales as well as him. Very few melee champions have a stronger early game and lane phase.
Teemo, Pantheon, Ryze, Swain, Kennen, Rumble can beat him in lane.
Riven, Wukong, and to a lesser extent GP can stay even on farm (roughly equal power early-mid game) and can carry just as hard late.
You can also run "utility" bruisers like Yorick, Skarner, Cho (rush Chain Mail) and rely on the rest of your team to beat him late.
Traditional bruisers like Renekton and even Nidalee can survive the lane, but they fall off hard compared to Trynd. These are really risky because you can't deny Trynd early, and he'll be infinitely more useful than you late (the Garen effect).
The best option regardless of what you run is to call for an early gank, before Trynd hits 6.
EDIT: How does Vlad do against Trynd? I know Vlad is picked as a counter to certain top lane bruisers, but his cds are so long early on so I'm not sure.
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Riven shits on Trynd. I think GP and Panth can probably beat him. Teemo hasn't been a strong Trynd counter in a long time (that said it will work at low to mid Elo because the Trynd's won't know how to react).
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On January 12 2012 00:58 Craton wrote:
Riven shits on Trynd. I think GP and Panth can probably beat him. Teemo hasn't been a strong Trynd counter in a long time (that said it will work at low to mid Elo because the Trynd's won't know how to react).
I think there is a mentionable game just a while ago where riven got beaten by a tryndamere. As I was told riven has to do her pokecombos very well timed or she instantly dies.
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Sure it's possible to lose any matchup, but Riven is heavily favored. I've seen it maybe 10 or 15 times and had Riven win in probably 80% of them.
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On January 12 2012 01:06 Craton wrote:
Sure it's possible to lose any matchup, but Riven is heavily favored. I've seen it maybe 10 or 15 times and had Riven win in probably 80% of them.
I think in a vacuum, Riven > Trynd 1v1 early on, about even once Trynd has ult+wriggle, and Trynd has a big advantage when he gets Zeal and before Riven gets BF sword. Overall Riven has an advantage in lane.
However, the Trynd in that lane matchup is much harder to gank than Riven. This is really important because Riven vs Trynd is most in Riven's favor very early on (before she has wards). You can't ignore jungle presence in lane matchups anymore.
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On January 11 2012 23:05 barbsq wrote:
soraka doesn't counter urgot any more than any other ranged AD. In fact she's one of the weaker one's to deal with urgot imo, in my short foray into 2v2 matchups with urgot, i pretty routinely stomped soraka + x lanes. What i most had problems with were when champions could just stand up to me and fight back, so leona and cow were serious issues, since they desperately want to fight you in the laning phase, so when you try to go for one of them, they just turn around and fuck you up if you get too close. Honestly the annoying thing about soraka is her silence (an issue i had with urgot vs kassadin a really long time ago), not the + armor from heal.
Also he doesn't rely on armor penetration that much, he has really high base damages on q, and his armor reduction is % based, so it's not actually doing that much in the early game beyond what your flat pen is doing.
This times 10.
Urgot+Taric/Alistar/Soraka/Sona are all pretty damn decent lanes to rape bot with. Soraka isn't a huge problem because you shit on their lane lvl 2-6, soraka can't outheal your harass at all, assuming you get in combos here and there.
Actually I pick Urgot pretty often when I see strong Assassins/Bursters being picked on the enemy team (LB, Talon, Akali, to some extent stuff like Panth/Riven/Tryn).
Against the last three I usually consider Trist/Corki to be stronger picks since even IF they start raping those can still kite them pretty damn decently. Where Urgot really shines is in terms of flexibilty when it comes to midgame items.
Fed Talon? Frozen Heart it is.
LB shitting on you? Lawl, let's do dat quick Banshees.
All cool and no big threat around? BT / LW ftw.
No other AD carry in the game has this inherent tankyness "on demand". On top of this his ultimate is top notch, especially in solo q. Sets up ganks, sets up escapes, baits like a boss due to Mres/Armor bonus and can initiate stronger than Ashe arrow from time to time.
Even botlane I'd consider Manamune core though since unlike e.g. Corki Manamune opens the whole FH/Banshees "defensive build path" for Urgot without sacrificing too much damage.
For me Urgot is the Pantheon of botlane; - can shit on the other side extremly hard if played well and it's almost impossible to get back into the game against him once he's ahead. However, if you fail to capitalize on the 15-20 minute time window he creates it's likely you're gonna have a hard time lategame.
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yesterday in a scrim it was wicked riven vs some trynd and riven could poke him really well, but when she mssed up a bit, it meant death. the W poke also pushed the lane hard.
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On January 12 2012 00:09 Requizen wrote:
So, I know we just had a jungle discussion a few pages back, but I don't really care about the numbers anymore, I find the fact that it's basically encouraging roaming very fun. As someone who prefers jungling for the ganking (and the fact that most of my favorite champs do well there), it's an extremely fun upgrade from the passive "just farm and sometimes gank if a lane is pushed" old jungle, at least in my opinion.
That said, I think this new jungle both opens up new junglers to see play (seeing troll picks like Malphite or Singed chosen pretty often seriously), but also makes the best junglers (Skarner, Udyr, Shaco, Lee Sin) so much better that it's almost terrible not to pick them. Any jungler who falls under the niche of "can AoE clear fast and gank unsuspecting lanes" immediately became the best in the game, almost ban status for some players.
Not that I mind (I jungle Skarner, Udyr, and Riven), but I just thought I'd give my $0.02
IDK why people keep on saying that old jungle was all about passive farming. It never was about passive farming and even with banking new jungle encourages passive farming more than old jungle did because of the increased opportunity cost of ganking and counterjungling becoming a terrible option aside from buff camps. I mean right now you can keep up with a successful ganking jungler in farm by just picking an AoE clearer and clearing 24/7 (something you could never do before). The only reason no one does it is because ganking wins your lanes harder than having a farmed jungler.
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Letz play a little game. If you like then answer these questions:
What are the most underrated and most overrated champs in your opinion and why? (Let us keep it to 1-2 champs/question)
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Overrated is morg because no one understands how easy it is to counter her so they just assume she is unstoppable.
Underrated is Shyvana, simply because most people dont understand quite how tanky she can be, and her clear times are awesome, and her top lane isnt bad either.
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On January 12 2012 00:09 Requizen wrote:
So, I know we just had a jungle discussion a few pages back, but I don't really care about the numbers anymore, I find the fact that it's basically encouraging roaming very fun. As someone who prefers jungling for the ganking (and the fact that most of my favorite champs do well there), it's an extremely fun upgrade from the passive "just farm and sometimes gank if a lane is pushed" old jungle, at least in my opinion.
That said, I think this new jungle both opens up new junglers to see play (seeing troll picks like Malphite or Singed chosen pretty often seriously), but also makes the best junglers (Skarner, Udyr, Shaco, Lee Sin) so much better that it's almost terrible not to pick them. Any jungler who falls under the niche of "can AoE clear fast and gank unsuspecting lanes" immediately became the best in the game, almost ban status for some players.
Not that I mind (I jungle Skarner, Udyr, and Riven), but I just thought I'd give my $0.02
The roaming style of jungling is something that was already being done in the old jungle. It didn't become widespread until after the jungle remake, but as Two_Down pointed out that's largely a coincidence. With or without the remake we would have ended up in a similar place.
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On January 12 2012 01:25 Two_DoWn wrote:
Overrated is morg because no one understands how easy it is to counter her so they just assume she is unstoppable.
Underrated is Shyvana, simply because most people dont understand quite how tanky she can be, and her clear times are awesome, and her top lane isnt bad either.
out of curiousity, how do you counter morg? seems completely impossible to stop her farm and she scales well into late game, so I don't see how you counter her.
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Riot claims Talon counters Morg. It might just be possible, IDK.
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On January 12 2012 01:21 clickrush wrote:
Letz play a little game. If you like then answer these questions:
What are the most underrated and most overrated champs in your opinion and why? (Let us keep it to 1-2 champs/question)
Underrated:
Twitch - In the right hands, the little rat is still a monster.
Viktor - Want to throw him in here because people still think he's bad. I get laughed at in champ select when I pick him. This is more than likely because he's still very new, but still, I WANT TO SPREAD THE KNOWLEDGE.
[b]Overrated:[b]
Morgana - Her utility is good, but she's not insta ban/pick status as many people think she is.
Sion - Any competent player knows how to deal with him, but he takes advantage of retards. I still like seeing him banned though since I never trust anyone on my team.
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On January 12 2012 01:30 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 01:25 Two_DoWn wrote:
Overrated is morg because no one understands how easy it is to counter her so they just assume she is unstoppable.
Underrated is Shyvana, simply because most people dont understand quite how tanky she can be, and her clear times are awesome, and her top lane isnt bad either. out of curiousity, how do you counter morg? seems completely impossible to stop her farm and she scales well into late game, so I don't see how you counter her.
Cassiopeia. Can burst spell shield quickly and counter push well.
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ahri destroys morg if you play balls out aggressive, dont take charm until like level 8-9. I also do good with fizz vs morgana.
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On January 12 2012 01:45 Cloud wrote:
ahri destroys morg if you play balls out aggressive, dont take charm until like level 8-9. I also do good with fizz vs morgana.
not taking charm is just asking for someone to gank you pre 6 over and over again.
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Viktor hilariously counters Morg even in his UP state.
Basically, get anything that can instaclear a wave, or near to it. She needs the creeps to stay at least 4 (more generally 5) full seconds still so that she gets every tick of Tormented Soil off. Then she's back to farming at tower or tanking creeps, and her aa animation isn't that good (it was horrendous before the buff 5 months ago).
Gragas, Sion (if he doesn't pay attention you'll pop his shield and destroy him, but I think it has more to do with Sion being faceroll so people don't put much effort into playing him), Malzahar... strong pushers make it hard for her.
She also isn't that efficient for harass: her spells have 10 and 12s cooldowns, with high mana costs. I know that if I have to expend too much mana in the 3 first levels, I'll have enough to W once per wave but not much more. Use low cd spells to trade with her (I hate stuff like lots-of-AP-aggressive-Annie since she'll just try to harass you every 4 seconds, you can't respond to that every time and when you do you're not nearly as mana efficient as her).
The shield is powerful but with a long cooldown. If you can bait it, you can get a gank off during its downtime. It should be even easier to do now according to your views on lane-camping jungle.
That is against a decent Morg. Most Morgs I've seen don't put effort into her nor try hard because they're all "lolo ezpz farming" (and don't even get all 6 minions in the AoE even when unhindered... ). As a Morg main, it's really frustrating to see her banned, not as much because she's "antifun" (I think Fizz is, and at a whole other level) but because she actually requires some work to counter, and most people don't want to try. Plus they're sheeps.
I'd let the opposing team have Morg anyday and I'll just pick Viktor or Gragas, outfarm her, and fuck up her ult. I'd still rather pick her myself tho.
EDIT: or just put an AD against her. Useless shield, better range, if you know how to dodge skillshots it's a cakewalk for you. Bonus points for Tristana and her explosive shots to push even faster.
To answer the original question, overrated I'd vote Morgana, underrated... Shyvana (already stated), Wukong (holy cow that ult scaling, combined with a cc not reduced by tenacity and an armor shred?), Yorrick (but the bastard's antifun as hell in lane, I'm glad nobody's picking him).
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Overrated
Fucking Kassadin- Just grab fish and counter his ass all day.
Underrated
I'm actually gonna go all out here and say Evelynn. She's actually not bad at all if you know how to play her, and once your fed the enemy team is fucked cus of all that burst damage.
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EPT
