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On January 12 2012 01:11 Sandster wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 01:06 Craton wrote:
Sure it's possible to lose any matchup, but Riven is heavily favored. I've seen it maybe 10 or 15 times and had Riven win in probably 80% of them. I think in a vacuum, Riven > Trynd 1v1 early on, about even once Trynd has ult+wriggle, and Trynd has a big advantage when he gets Zeal and before Riven gets BF sword. Overall Riven has an advantage in lane. However, the Trynd in that lane matchup is much harder to gank than Riven. This is really important because Riven vs Trynd is most in Riven's favor very early on (before she has wards). You can't ignore jungle presence in lane matchups anymore.
Not that Riven is easy to gank. Once you have a couple ranks in E (or not, she's fine with only 1 in it), it becomes near impossible to catch her. And since she's a Wriggle's lane champ, she should (should) have at least 1 ward up at all times.
Ganking Trynd is all about being smart and who your jungle/laner is. If you can safely CC him through most of his ult, it's not that scary (Skarner jungle + something like Sion lane). Riven is actually not bad, she can trade with him if his fury isn't full, and her mini chain CC works nicely to let a jungler get in.
He'd be hard to gank for, like, a Shyvana jungle and Rumble lane, or something with no CC like that. He's not the type that you can just play Shaco, run in and blow him up. It makes him very strong.
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
i wish everyone thought like you guys on these forums. If i got kass and morg all day id be 2200 by now. easiest wins of my life everytime I get these characters since im used to people trying to counter them already.
smash can attest to this as ive carried him with my kass before. Some one put panth mid vs me and I just pushed his nuts in and went legendary.
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DanDinh jungling Malphite btw if that interests anyone since it was mentioned earlier.
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On January 12 2012 01:19 phyvo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 00:09 Requizen wrote:
So, I know we just had a jungle discussion a few pages back, but I don't really care about the numbers anymore, I find the fact that it's basically encouraging roaming very fun. As someone who prefers jungling for the ganking (and the fact that most of my favorite champs do well there), it's an extremely fun upgrade from the passive "just farm and sometimes gank if a lane is pushed" old jungle, at least in my opinion.
That said, I think this new jungle both opens up new junglers to see play (seeing troll picks like Malphite or Singed chosen pretty often seriously), but also makes the best junglers (Skarner, Udyr, Shaco, Lee Sin) so much better that it's almost terrible not to pick them. Any jungler who falls under the niche of "can AoE clear fast and gank unsuspecting lanes" immediately became the best in the game, almost ban status for some players.
Not that I mind (I jungle Skarner, Udyr, and Riven), but I just thought I'd give my $0.02 IDK why people keep on saying that old jungle was all about passive farming. It never was about passive farming and even with banking new jungle encourages passive farming more than old jungle did because of the increased opportunity cost of ganking and counterjungling becoming a terrible option aside from buff camps. I mean right now you can keep up with a successful ganking jungler in farm by just picking an AoE clearer and clearing 24/7 (something you could never do before). The only reason no one does it is because ganking wins your lanes harder than having a farmed jungler.
Well, you're right, my wording was off. Not so much "passive jungling" as much as "jungling required more". Since the mobs were nerfed, the big mobs were given heals, and the banking system was introduced, it's easier for anyone to go in and jungle. You can't die to small camps unless you're pretty bad. Hell, it's hard to die to buff monsters unless you're pretty bad.
So when I say "passive jungling", I mean the idea that they weren't camps you could kill in passing on your way to a gank. You could at level 10+, once you had items and what not, but full clears now are so much easier. And there's no real disincentive to not killing things. Previously, if you left a camp up for too long, it was the worst thing you could do. Now, you can leave them up for quite a bit and let the gold/xp build up while you kill a lane.
I hate to say things like "easy" or "nerfed", but that's what it was. There doesn't seem to be as much of a skill requirement, you can jump in the jungle with pretty much any champ with any runes and do reasonably well given you know the champion. Pick any route and get a pull on blue and you'll do fine, for the most part.
Not that I'm complaining. Like I said, I like the new jungle. It allows for a more aggressive playstyle with less punishment if you mess up your route or are gone for too long.
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On January 12 2012 01:47 Soloside wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 01:45 Cloud wrote:
ahri destroys morg if you play balls out aggressive, dont take charm until like level 8-9. I also do good with fizz vs morgana. not taking charm is just asking for someone to gank you pre 6 over and over again.
I said dont take charm, not ignore their jungler. Charm isnt an antijungle measure, its an antidiving measure.
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Overrated: Vayne. She is very, very good. But I don't think she's must-ban/first-pick material that everyone is making her out to be. Overall the AD's at the top are very balanced around each other (Vayne Trist Graves Corki Sivir and Caitlyn slightly lagging behind) and several of those give Vayne a very rough time in lane.
Underrated: I already mentioned Anivia. Otherwise, Wukong. That guy is an absolute terror in lane and his ult is retarded. I'm really glad he's not in every game.
Regarding the Riven/Trynd lane, assuming Flash/Ignite on Riven and some combination of Ghost/Cleanse/Ignite/Cleanse on Trynd:
Riven's early game advantage is the level 1 Q + level 2 W that makes trades favorable for her. However, using those push the lane. Once the lane is pushed, Riven has to be very careful of jungler ganks, especially before 3, because Trynd has a ranged slow that makes escape impossible. Therefore she has to back off, let Trynd use his pots/fury and farm near his tower, and once he has wriggles he can safely farm in lane.
If there is no early trade and lane is frozen in the mid, he'll always be able to spin into the brush if a gank comes and run away. Even if Riven gets her full combo off, Trynd can spin into brush, heal, and run towards his tower and live more often than not (unless if he ran Cleanse+Ignite, which is rare).
Once both sides have backed and bought wards/boots/wriggle then both sides are safe and it's a farmfest and comes down to not overextending and farming core items (Riven's BF sword and Trynd's Zeal).
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On January 12 2012 01:30 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 01:25 Two_DoWn wrote:
Overrated is morg because no one understands how easy it is to counter her so they just assume she is unstoppable.
Underrated is Shyvana, simply because most people dont understand quite how tanky she can be, and her clear times are awesome, and her top lane isnt bad either. out of curiousity, how do you counter morg? seems completely impossible to stop her farm and she scales well into late game, so I don't see how you counter her.
i'm going to have to second this. Morg has always seemed like a champion that you cannot really hard counter. She has some unfavorable matchups, but none that i know of where she outright loses. except maybe urgot, since grenade and lockon q's totally ignore the shield huehuehue
edit: and even if you mean teamfights, like gragas ult or just scattering, well yes, you may have prevented her from a 3+ person ult stun, but it's really really hard for morg to not consistently get at least 1 and very often more.
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How much as % does randuins frozen heart malphite e slow?
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On January 12 2012 01:16 r.Evo wrote:
Even botlane I'd consider Manamune core though since unlike e.g. Corki Manamune opens the whole FH/Banshees "defensive build path" for Urgot without sacrificing too much damage.
When i was playing urgot bot lane, i would still run the manamune bruta style about half of the time. It depended on a lot of things, but primarily just intuition, the only reason i dont say it's core is that i do deviate from it enough that it suddenly doesn't become 'core' anymore like it was in solo lanes, where you honestly couldn't do without it. This is especially true if you have a soraka in lane for free manas 
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On January 12 2012 02:30 barbsq wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 01:30 Mogwai wrote:On January 12 2012 01:25 Two_DoWn wrote:
Overrated is morg because no one understands how easy it is to counter her so they just assume she is unstoppable.
Underrated is Shyvana, simply because most people dont understand quite how tanky she can be, and her clear times are awesome, and her top lane isnt bad either. out of curiousity, how do you counter morg? seems completely impossible to stop her farm and she scales well into late game, so I don't see how you counter her. i'm going to have to second this. Morg has always seemed like a champion that you cannot really hard counter. She has some unfavorable matchups, but none that i know of where she outright loses. except maybe urgot, since grenade and lockon q's totally ignore the shield huehuehue
Cass rapes morg hard. As does anyone else who can out push her. And talon does his raping ap carry thing.
Morg is wierd. Against someone who doesnt push the lane, she outfarms them considerably. Against someone who clears faster than her, she becomes a terrible wave clearer because she is completely dependent on the lane being stationary. Cass, Sion, Anivia- anyone who can keep the lane moving will give morg serious issues when it comes to farming quickly.
Ya, a late game morg ult hurts, but I would argue that an equally fed Karth or anivia is more useful for the aoe.
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On January 12 2012 02:30 barbsq wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 01:30 Mogwai wrote:On January 12 2012 01:25 Two_DoWn wrote:
Overrated is morg because no one understands how easy it is to counter her so they just assume she is unstoppable.
Underrated is Shyvana, simply because most people dont understand quite how tanky she can be, and her clear times are awesome, and her top lane isnt bad either. out of curiousity, how do you counter morg? seems completely impossible to stop her farm and she scales well into late game, so I don't see how you counter her. i'm going to have to second this. Morg has always seemed like a champion that you cannot really hard counter. She has some unfavorable matchups, but none that i know of where she outright loses. except maybe urgot, since grenade and lockon q's totally ignore the shield huehuehue edit: and even if you mean teamfights, like gragas ult or just scattering, well yes, you may have prevented her from a 3+ person ult stun, but it's really really hard for morg to not consistently get at least 1 and very often more.
I agree somewhat that she's not really a champion you can HARD counter, but more deal with. Cass might be the hardest you can get for a hard counter (mage-wise, anyway). If Alaric says Viktor is good vs Morg, then I'll take his word for it, I haven't played the matchup yet. Although I'm very glad that someone else is having as much fun and success with the machine mage as I am.
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United States47024 Posts
On January 12 2012 02:43 Two_DoWn wrote:
Ya, a late game morg ult hurts, but I would argue that an equally fed Karth or anivia is more useful for the aoe.
Lategame Morg has the potential to just randomly win the game in solo queue because some idiot got hit by a Binding in an awkward place.
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what is the ideal GP late game full item build?
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On January 12 2012 02:47 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote:
what is the ideal GP late game full item build?
Depends on if you can manage full damage or need some tankiness. For a balance, probably something like Atmogs, Trinity, and IE, CDR boots, and something like BT or GA depending on how you feel.
I dunno, it rarely gets to full item build for GP.
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On January 12 2012 02:45 jcarlsoniv wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 02:30 barbsq wrote:On January 12 2012 01:30 Mogwai wrote:On January 12 2012 01:25 Two_DoWn wrote:
Overrated is morg because no one understands how easy it is to counter her so they just assume she is unstoppable.
Underrated is Shyvana, simply because most people dont understand quite how tanky she can be, and her clear times are awesome, and her top lane isnt bad either. out of curiousity, how do you counter morg? seems completely impossible to stop her farm and she scales well into late game, so I don't see how you counter her. i'm going to have to second this. Morg has always seemed like a champion that you cannot really hard counter. She has some unfavorable matchups, but none that i know of where she outright loses. except maybe urgot, since grenade and lockon q's totally ignore the shield huehuehue edit: and even if you mean teamfights, like gragas ult or just scattering, well yes, you may have prevented her from a 3+ person ult stun, but it's really really hard for morg to not consistently get at least 1 and very often more. I agree somewhat that she's not really a champion you can HARD counter, but more deal with. Cass might be the hardest you can get for a hard counter (mage-wise, anyway). If Alaric says Viktor is good vs Morg, then I'll take his word for it, I haven't played the matchup yet. Although I'm very glad that someone else is having as much fun and success with the machine mage as I am.
Level E first, 2 doran rings, maybe Death augment, clear the creep wave (minus maybe a hit on each melee minion) in one spell while they're all still lining. Morg can't W. Morg screwed. \o/
I played it before the patch so I noticed I couldn't harass her too much tho, because I wouldn't have enough mana to wear her down all while farming. Still managed to grab a kill but if she kills you you won't get her, since your ult will immediatly disappear on death (the same is true for the stun device, it's highly frustrating).
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On January 12 2012 02:46 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 02:43 Two_DoWn wrote:
Ya, a late game morg ult hurts, but I would argue that an equally fed Karth or anivia is more useful for the aoe. Lategame Morg has the potential to just randomly win the game in solo queue because some idiot got hit by a Binding in an awkward place.
But then again, late game KARTH and anivia can randomly win the game by hitting a wall. Most Ap carries tend to have that catch someone and they die aspect to them.
Also- morg shield only blocks magic damage. Someone like graves, sivir, or cait would take a dump on morg in lane.
But that would require people doing the unthinkable and adjusting their play style. So we dont have to worry about that.
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Pantheon counters Morg top lane, but mid's too small to do anything, and in either scenario, Pantheon exposes himself to ganks that will kill him basically 100% of the time. Pantheon vs. Kass is stupidly overrated, not sure how people got this into their heads as a counter. If everyone who could deny Kass last hits for the first 6 levels were a counter, Kass would win exactly 0 lanes.
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I turn on Dan's stream in time to watch him miss smite on baron, get aced, and lose.
Seriously what's up with "pro" junglers missing smite all the time?
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So I got to lane against a cait who was using crit chance reds, and let me tell you, that rng completely won him the lane. I'm thinking of doing it myself. One crit wins you the lane, two give you a kill usually, and maximizing your chance of this seems like a great idea.
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On January 12 2012 02:59 SnK-Arcbound wrote:
So I got to lane against a cait who was using crit chance reds, and let me tell you, that rng completely won him the lane. I'm thinking of doing it myself. One crit wins you the lane, two give you a kill usually, and maximizing your chance of this seems like a great idea.
Oh God no, don't get these people started on crit again. Last "discussion" lasted, what, like 10+ pages?
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EPT
