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[Patch 1.0.0.131: Viktor] General Discussion - Page 164

Forum Index > LoL General
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ihasaKAROT
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Netherlands4730 Posts
January 11 2012 13:32 GMT
#3261
Theres just too many better alternatives to urgot. In lower / mid ELO you can really punish 'bad' players botlane with Urgot , but on the higher ELOs, Urgot just drops off too much compared to say a Vayne, Cait, Graves and Trist.
KCCO!
mr_tolkien
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
France8631 Posts
January 11 2012 13:32 GMT
#3262
On January 11 2012 22:24 fuzzbox wrote:
What about going Trinity on Urgot? Does his Q proc sheen?

Nope.
The legend of Darien lives on
barbsq
Profile Joined November 2009
United States5348 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-11 13:58:06
January 11 2012 13:43 GMT
#3263
Urgot is incredibly strong in lane and during the midgame. His lategame problems occur because his q overrides his autoattack, so instead of being a damage source that complements autos, it becomes one that replaces them, and since q's dont crit, it lacks multiplicative scaling. Not to mention it is not affected by attackspeed, further compounding his lack of 'multiplicativity'. It's a sort of an ezreal problem, but exacerbated to an extreme.

bot lane urgot doesn't need manamune or bruta (it's 100% core on solo urgot, but you can pretty handily get away without it in bot lane), i've played games where i've gone dblades -> bloodthirster -> lw and haven't been so mana starved that i necessarily needed tear. also the need for defensive items is purely up to a player's playstyle. He functions all-right when you build him as a glass cannon, his ult is really strong in defensive contexts, and he has really high effective range with grenade + q's, so the need for defensive items is purely up to how the player wants to play him. Like i said, his late game weakness comes down to the fact that his primary damage comes from a skill that doesn't crit and isn't affected by attackspeed, so there's no scaling except for flat AD and cdr, which makes him have a power-curve that looks like an AP caster.

I think the biggest hit to urgot, however, has been the recent shift to support + ad bot lane. It's been the primary reason i basically stopped playing him. He still fucks shit up in solo lanes, but doesn't have quite as many obviously favorable 2v2 matchups, tho i'm pretty convinced that he has several good matchups, but i haven't really explored them since i haven't played him so much recently.

edit: also the stuff about trinity reminded me that he also has some issues taking towers, due to his low auto range compounded with a lack of mobility ability (i.e. tumble, essence flux or valkyrie on similarly ranged champions), and some of that could be mitigated with trinity, since you can just shoot one auto at a tower at a time and still do decent dmg to it and not really have to put yourself in as much danger. It's one of the more convincing arguments that led me to end up trying trinity, tho i still didnt like it
Look at this guy, constantly diluting himself! (╮°-°)╮┳━┳ ( ╯°□°)╯ ┻━┻
FR4CT4L
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Australia697 Posts
January 11 2012 13:44 GMT
#3264
Question, what are good champs to run solo top against tryndamere?
Veni, vidi, vici!
barbsq
Profile Joined November 2009
United States5348 Posts
January 11 2012 13:44 GMT
#3265
On January 11 2012 22:44 FR4CT4L wrote:
Question, what are good champs to run solo top against tryndamere?


teemo
Look at this guy, constantly diluting himself! (╮°-°)╮┳━┳ ( ╯°□°)╯ ┻━┻
ihasaKAROT
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Netherlands4730 Posts
January 11 2012 13:48 GMT
#3266
On January 11 2012 22:44 FR4CT4L wrote:
Question, what are good champs to run solo top against tryndamere?


Teemo and pretty much any AP with a kite/stun. Love swain vs Trynda
KCCO!
BluzMan
Profile Blog Joined April 2006
Russian Federation4235 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-11 13:55:29
January 11 2012 13:54 GMT
#3267
On January 11 2012 22:43 barbsq wrote:
Urgot is incredibly strong in lane and during the midgame. His lategame problems occur because his q overrides his autoattack, so instead of being a damage source that complements autos, it becomes one that replaces them, and since q's dont crit, it lacks multiplicative scaling. Not to mention it is not affected by attackspeed, further compounding his lack of 'multiplicativity'. It's a sort of an ezreal problem, but exacerbated to an extreme.

bot lane urgot doesn't need manamune or bruta (it's 100% core on solo urgot, but you can pretty handily get away without it in bot lane), i've played games where i've gone dblades -> bloodthirster -> lw and haven't been so mana starved that i necessarily needed tear. also the need for defensive items is purely up to a player's playstyle. He functions all-right when you build him as a glass cannon, his ult is really strong in defensive contexts, and he has really high effective range with grenade + q's, so the need for defensive items is purely up to how the player wants to play him. Like i said, his late game weakness comes down to the fact that his primary damage comes from a skill that doesn't crit and isn't affected by attackspeed, so there's no scaling except for flat AD and cdr, which makes him have a power-curve that looks like an AP caster.

I think the biggest hit to urgot, however, has been the recent shift to support + ad bot lane. It's been the primary reason i basically stopped playing him. He still fucks shit up in solo lanes, but doesn't have quite as many obviously favorable 2v2 matchups, tho i'm pretty convinced that he has several good matchups, but i haven't really explored them since i haven't played him so much recently.


I can't think of a reliable pick strategy that could make Urgot viable in botlane. With a tendency to pick supports last, there's literally no way you could stop a Soraka counterpick. Like I said before, Soraka completely wrecks him because Urgot totally relies on that 100% armor penetration for his early game damage. Picking Soraka makes a sub-optimal lane imo (however, it should be explored maybe with offensive Soraka builds revisited) and banning her makes a physical caster pick blatantly obvious. Your best bet may be creating ambiguity by picking a ranged DPS that can solo and picking Urgot last, but I dunno, even if you take Soraka out of the equation there's still Taric with free armor and shielding supports.
You want 20 good men, but you need a bad pussy.
RogerX
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
New Zealand3180 Posts
January 11 2012 13:56 GMT
#3268
I actually did baller well with Nasus against tryndamere.
Stick it up. take it up. step aside and see the world
barbsq
Profile Joined November 2009
United States5348 Posts
January 11 2012 14:05 GMT
#3269
soraka doesn't counter urgot any more than any other ranged AD. In fact she's one of the weaker one's to deal with urgot imo, in my short foray into 2v2 matchups with urgot, i pretty routinely stomped soraka + x lanes. What i most had problems with were when champions could just stand up to me and fight back, so leona and cow were serious issues, since they desperately want to fight you in the laning phase, so when you try to go for one of them, they just turn around and fuck you up if you get too close. Honestly the annoying thing about soraka is her silence (an issue i had with urgot vs kassadin a really long time ago), not the + armor from heal.

Also he doesn't rely on armor penetration that much, he has really high base damages on q, and his armor reduction is % based, so it's not actually doing that much in the early game beyond what your flat pen is doing.
Look at this guy, constantly diluting himself! (╮°-°)╮┳━┳ ( ╯°□°)╯ ┻━┻
zer0das
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United States8519 Posts
January 11 2012 14:12 GMT
#3270
On January 11 2012 22:56 RogerX wrote:
I actually did baller well with Nasus against tryndamere.


You played a really, really bad Tryn then.
RogerX
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
New Zealand3180 Posts
January 11 2012 14:18 GMT
#3271
On January 11 2012 23:12 zer0das wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 11 2012 22:56 RogerX wrote:
I actually did baller well with Nasus against tryndamere.


You played a really, really bad Tryn then.

Probably, I actually just tower hugged and got quite a lot of CS with my Q. Trynd kept pushing so it was pretty easy, he also tried diving with Riven, use R and W and I pretty much survived it all while killing away Trynd from carelessness.

Stick it up. take it up. step aside and see the world
rwrzr
Profile Joined February 2010
United States1980 Posts
January 11 2012 14:24 GMT
#3272
On January 11 2012 23:18 RogerX wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 11 2012 23:12 zer0das wrote:
On January 11 2012 22:56 RogerX wrote:
I actually did baller well with Nasus against tryndamere.


You played a really, really bad Tryn then.

Probably, I actually just tower hugged and got quite a lot of CS with my Q. Trynd kept pushing so it was pretty easy, he also tried diving with Riven, use R and W and I pretty much survived it all while killing away Trynd from carelessness.



Bad Tyrnd x2
FADC
Beyonder
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Netherlands15103 Posts
January 11 2012 14:33 GMT
#3273
Thanks for the answers. I was thinking about trying Urgot TOP vs melee in ranked, had some succes with it in normal games. The Q really fucks people up.. wont try him at all in bot I guess :D
Moderator
Alaric
Profile Joined November 2009
France45622 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-11 14:51:53
January 11 2012 14:36 GMT
#3274
I guess it's like Nunu then: you can really fuck up people in lane, you're obnoxious, but you've got no scaling at all. :x

Edit: how viable are attack speed marks on champs with steroids/armor shreds like Vayne, Corki, Jarvan or Wukong?
Cant take LMS hipsters serious.
triangle
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States3803 Posts
January 11 2012 14:49 GMT
#3275
On January 11 2012 22:44 FR4CT4L wrote:
Question, what are good champs to run solo top against tryndamere?

Try Malphite.
Also known as waterfall / w4terfall
Requizen
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States33802 Posts
January 11 2012 15:09 GMT
#3276
So, I know we just had a jungle discussion a few pages back, but I don't really care about the numbers anymore, I find the fact that it's basically encouraging roaming very fun. As someone who prefers jungling for the ganking (and the fact that most of my favorite champs do well there), it's an extremely fun upgrade from the passive "just farm and sometimes gank if a lane is pushed" old jungle, at least in my opinion.

That said, I think this new jungle both opens up new junglers to see play (seeing troll picks like Malphite or Singed chosen pretty often seriously), but also makes the best junglers (Skarner, Udyr, Shaco, Lee Sin) so much better that it's almost terrible not to pick them. Any jungler who falls under the niche of "can AoE clear fast and gank unsuspecting lanes" immediately became the best in the game, almost ban status for some players.

Not that I mind (I jungle Skarner, Udyr, and Riven), but I just thought I'd give my $0.02
It's your boy Guzma!
mordek
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States12705 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-11 15:15:42
January 11 2012 15:14 GMT
#3277
Malphite is a decent jungler... Singed I've seen rarely but I've seen Snoopeh and Dan Dinh pick Malphite intentionally (in solo q however).

Also, I'm interested, is Malphite a good pick top vs. Trynd?
It is vanity to love what passes quickly and not to look ahead where eternal joy abides. Tiberius77 | Mordek #1881 "I took a mint!"
luckybeni2
Profile Joined October 2008
Germany1065 Posts
January 11 2012 15:17 GMT
#3278
If nasus survives for 10 min or so and doesnt feed i feel like trynd has no chance in lane any more. nasus just goes super sustain with frozen heart. Maybe he needs a gank or 2 but after that he is basically impossible to kill.
barbsq
Profile Joined November 2009
United States5348 Posts
January 11 2012 15:23 GMT
#3279
On January 12 2012 00:14 mordek wrote:
Malphite is a decent jungler... Singed I've seen rarely but I've seen Snoopeh and Dan Dinh pick Malphite intentionally (in solo q however).

Also, I'm interested, is Malphite a good pick top vs. Trynd?


i would imagine so. On paper it seems like he would be, trynd does dmg primarily by autoattack, malph has attackspeed reduction and is pretty good at fighting melee champions in general (see pantheon). Malph can also just build randuins + frozen heart and just be a massive asshole to trynd all game.
Look at this guy, constantly diluting himself! (╮°-°)╮┳━┳ ( ╯°□°)╯ ┻━┻
zer0das
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United States8519 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-11 15:25:40
January 11 2012 15:25 GMT
#3280
Good luck surviving 10 minutes as Nasus. Tryn is going to be zoning you from level 1, even with a jungler's help it is not easy. If he's stupid and pushes the lane 24/7 so you can farm at the turret, you have a chance. Otherwise, this is probably one of the least favorable matchups I can think of. Every time I've beaten a Tryn as Nasus, they were stupid.
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