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Want to rage about your latest loss? Use the QQ thread. If you whine in GD, you'll get warned. ===== + Show Spoiler +If your [Stream] thread was moved to the general TL Stream subforum (aka SC stream land), find your thread and PM it to me and I'll move it back to LoL territory. I can argue with staff that moving a non-SC thread into a SC subforum is just asking for that thread to get buried.
- Neo, Dec. 15 2011, 6:33 KST I have admin approval. I'll be moving LoL streams back to the subforum. Stream name will be based on Summoner name. - Neo 7:07 KST |
On December 23 2011 04:10 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2011 03:53 jcarlsoniv wrote:
His aoe slow/stun seems retarded op. Doesn't seem like there's ever a chance to get out of it in time to avoid stun unless he misses HORRIBLY. It seems as if Brand's W slowed you so you always took the pillar.
How can you say this when we have no idea how big the AoE is? The Brand comparison is pretty stupid also, seeing as a delay that's on the order of 0.5-0.75 seconds is hardly comparable to a 1.5 second delay. Also consider that it's a CC spell that does no damage. It has to be somewhat strong CC-wise to make up for it, and compared to other damage-less CC spells, this isn't exactly out of line (it's arguably weaker than Veigar's E for example).
We HAVE seen how big it is... and I am inclined to agree. It looked to me as though it is pretty much an autostun if you catch someone anywhere that isnt the very outer edge.
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On December 23 2011 03:55 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2011 03:51 Prinate wrote:On December 23 2011 03:25 Alaric wrote:On December 23 2011 02:49 Prinate wrote:
Rough number for replacement cost of just the stat bonuses (not pricing the ability augments, using basic item stat cost) and ignoring the 3ap/level that the slot gets regardless;
Power: health and health regen: 770g
Gravity: mana, cdr, mp5: 1020g
Death: ap: 980g How do you calculate the "basic" price for cdr? Using swifties and Ionian boots? Kindlegem, reduced by the effective cost of the health benefit also received on the item. In the mathcraft thread linked earlier, others reduced it only by the straight cost of it's ruby crystal component, but I disagree with that (just my opinion). It's not a consistent itemization cost, though. If you do the math for stinger, reduced by AS, the cdr would be worth pennies. I'd avoid comparing any stat costs to boots, personally, I think of them as their own tier of item. meh, I disagree pretty heavily with trying to place a gold value on CDR, Spell Vamp, or Movespeed tbh.
It's a comparison that's always going to be made, though. In threads or mathcraft where you're trying to figure out if an item is worth the cost, you need to at least try to estimate out a gold amount, or it's impossible to compare one thing to another.
And yeah, like people said, it's most "expensive" part is the item slot. However, considering stats, it might be ok, maybe even better than gold-relative items. 99 AP is pretty damn big, the only 2 items that give more (Deathcap/Zhonya's) are fucking expensive. An MS item that's actually worthwhile. And an item that gives range. Not to mention the stats on them.
I just don't know. I can see Deathcap with Death doing so much damage though.
The more I think about it, I think Power might be good for early game tough lanes. More health, poking power, and the like.
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United States47024 Posts
On December 23 2011 04:12 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2011 04:10 TheYango wrote:On December 23 2011 03:53 jcarlsoniv wrote:
His aoe slow/stun seems retarded op. Doesn't seem like there's ever a chance to get out of it in time to avoid stun unless he misses HORRIBLY. It seems as if Brand's W slowed you so you always took the pillar.
How can you say this when we have no idea how big the AoE is? The Brand comparison is pretty stupid also, seeing as a delay that's on the order of 0.5-0.75 seconds is hardly comparable to a 1.5 second delay. Also consider that it's a CC spell that does no damage. It has to be somewhat strong CC-wise to make up for it, and compared to other damage-less CC spells, this isn't exactly out of line (it's arguably weaker than Veigar's E for example). We HAVE seen how big it is... and I am inclined to agree. It looked to me as though it is pretty much an autostun if you catch someone anywhere that isnt the very outer edge.
OK, even if it's an auto-stun. It's still not out of line compared to Veigar's E. 1.5 sec slow + delayed 1.5 sec stun vs. 2.5 sec immediate stun.
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On December 23 2011 03:55 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2011 03:51 Prinate wrote:On December 23 2011 03:25 Alaric wrote:On December 23 2011 02:49 Prinate wrote:
Rough number for replacement cost of just the stat bonuses (not pricing the ability augments, using basic item stat cost) and ignoring the 3ap/level that the slot gets regardless;
Power: health and health regen: 770g
Gravity: mana, cdr, mp5: 1020g
Death: ap: 980g How do you calculate the "basic" price for cdr? Using swifties and Ionian boots? Kindlegem, reduced by the effective cost of the health benefit also received on the item. In the mathcraft thread linked earlier, others reduced it only by the straight cost of it's ruby crystal component, but I disagree with that (just my opinion). It's not a consistent itemization cost, though. If you do the math for stinger, reduced by AS, the cdr would be worth pennies. I'd avoid comparing any stat costs to boots, personally, I think of them as their own tier of item. meh, I disagree pretty heavily with trying to place a gold value on CDR, Spell Vamp, or Movespeed tbh.
That's fair. There isn't a good universal number, that's for sure. I use kindlegem because it's the cheapest/most basic, but for actual consideration it'd be better to compare any scenario to a more relevant item for someone's kit. In this case, that augment is basically a mana crystal + something between a fiendish codex and morello's.
I agree on move speed. Why spell vamp? Too few avenues to get the stat?
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On December 23 2011 04:12 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2011 04:10 TheYango wrote:On December 23 2011 03:53 jcarlsoniv wrote:
His aoe slow/stun seems retarded op. Doesn't seem like there's ever a chance to get out of it in time to avoid stun unless he misses HORRIBLY. It seems as if Brand's W slowed you so you always took the pillar.
How can you say this when we have no idea how big the AoE is? The Brand comparison is pretty stupid also, seeing as a delay that's on the order of 0.5-0.75 seconds is hardly comparable to a 1.5 second delay. Also consider that it's a CC spell that does no damage. It has to be somewhat strong CC-wise to make up for it, and compared to other damage-less CC spells, this isn't exactly out of line (it's arguably weaker than Veigar's E for example). We HAVE seen how big it is... and I am inclined to agree. It looked to me as though it is pretty much an autostun if you catch someone anywhere that isnt the very outer edge.
However, anyone with a blink/dash can get out of it like any other non-instant AoE. Graves, Ez, Trist, Riven, Shen, Renek, Ahri, whoever. It will punish non-mobile champions really hard, probably making him a good counter to a lot of AP mids or top Bruisers.
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On December 23 2011 04:13 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2011 04:12 Two_DoWn wrote:On December 23 2011 04:10 TheYango wrote:On December 23 2011 03:53 jcarlsoniv wrote:
His aoe slow/stun seems retarded op. Doesn't seem like there's ever a chance to get out of it in time to avoid stun unless he misses HORRIBLY. It seems as if Brand's W slowed you so you always took the pillar.
How can you say this when we have no idea how big the AoE is? The Brand comparison is pretty stupid also, seeing as a delay that's on the order of 0.5-0.75 seconds is hardly comparable to a 1.5 second delay. Also consider that it's a CC spell that does no damage. It has to be somewhat strong CC-wise to make up for it, and compared to other damage-less CC spells, this isn't exactly out of line (it's arguably weaker than Veigar's E for example). We HAVE seen how big it is... and I am inclined to agree. It looked to me as though it is pretty much an autostun if you catch someone anywhere that isnt the very outer edge. OK, even if it's an auto-stun. It's still not out of line compared to Veigar's E. 1.5 sec slow + delayed 1.5 sec stun vs. 2.5 sec immediate stun.
Is a good point. It just seems stronger, just the vibe I'm getting from it. Obviously it's all speculation until we play him.
On that note, though, how is Veigar after the buff? Haven't really seen any, and I don't play him.
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On December 23 2011 04:10 JackDino wrote:
Do you open dblade?
yep.
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On December 23 2011 03:54 JackDino wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2011 02:41 Unentschieden wrote:
That just results in the culprits starting to argue, like Hynda - who in fact knows exactly what he was banned for. People that can´t tell what about their behaviour might be offensive to other people are "socially challenged" and need more than an explanation to improve their behaviour. Maybe it IS a sad case of a weird disability but such a person is STILL a pain to play with. This is not exactly true since it can be weeks before you actually get banned, you may have had like 3 bad days with shitty behaviour, 2weeks later, full of good behaviour you get banned. Why did you get banned when you been good for 2 weeks. Riot should just explain in the email why you got banned, or send some of the tribunal cases that were relevant. Would also get rid of a lot of the WHY U BAN ME RIOT forum posts.
You never get banned straight away, you get at least one warning before that. According to the released stats over 50% of thouse players get it at that point. The people that get actually banned don´t just suddenly stop for no reason. They get the warning and keep trolling, thats why repeat offenders get almost seven times the reports than one time offenders.
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On December 23 2011 04:14 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2011 04:12 Two_DoWn wrote:On December 23 2011 04:10 TheYango wrote:On December 23 2011 03:53 jcarlsoniv wrote:
His aoe slow/stun seems retarded op. Doesn't seem like there's ever a chance to get out of it in time to avoid stun unless he misses HORRIBLY. It seems as if Brand's W slowed you so you always took the pillar.
How can you say this when we have no idea how big the AoE is? The Brand comparison is pretty stupid also, seeing as a delay that's on the order of 0.5-0.75 seconds is hardly comparable to a 1.5 second delay. Also consider that it's a CC spell that does no damage. It has to be somewhat strong CC-wise to make up for it, and compared to other damage-less CC spells, this isn't exactly out of line (it's arguably weaker than Veigar's E for example). We HAVE seen how big it is... and I am inclined to agree. It looked to me as though it is pretty much an autostun if you catch someone anywhere that isnt the very outer edge. However, anyone with a blink/dash can get out of it like any other non-instant AoE. Graves, Ez, Trist, Riven, Shen, Renek, Ahri, whoever. It will punish non-mobile champions really hard, probably making him a good counter to a lot of AP mids or top Bruisers.
My initial thought was that the slow/stun combo seemed too strong, but that's a good point. I don't like it's art (too much for such a big area) but I think it's a clever ability. Good players will use it after mobile champs burn their dashes/etc, which will make it seem OP to the victims. But still easier to learn initially than Veigar's E (landing the edge.)
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On December 23 2011 03:28 Two_DoWn wrote:
As for vicktors item, Im sure that late game everyone is going to wish they could sell that piece of junk and get a decent item.
Is it confirmed that this item will fit one of 6 slots though? I'm kinda confused by this link since recommended builds for classic include "death" but dominion items don't include any of his unique items
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On December 23 2011 04:14 Prinate wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2011 03:55 Mogwai wrote:On December 23 2011 03:51 Prinate wrote:On December 23 2011 03:25 Alaric wrote:On December 23 2011 02:49 Prinate wrote:
Rough number for replacement cost of just the stat bonuses (not pricing the ability augments, using basic item stat cost) and ignoring the 3ap/level that the slot gets regardless;
Power: health and health regen: 770g
Gravity: mana, cdr, mp5: 1020g
Death: ap: 980g How do you calculate the "basic" price for cdr? Using swifties and Ionian boots? Kindlegem, reduced by the effective cost of the health benefit also received on the item. In the mathcraft thread linked earlier, others reduced it only by the straight cost of it's ruby crystal component, but I disagree with that (just my opinion). It's not a consistent itemization cost, though. If you do the math for stinger, reduced by AS, the cdr would be worth pennies. I'd avoid comparing any stat costs to boots, personally, I think of them as their own tier of item. meh, I disagree pretty heavily with trying to place a gold value on CDR, Spell Vamp, or Movespeed tbh. That's fair. There isn't a good universal number, that's for sure. I use kindlegem because it's the cheapest/most basic, but for actual consideration it'd be better to compare any scenario to a more relevant item for someone's kit. In this case, that augment is basically a mana crystal + something between a fiendish codex and morello's. I agree on move speed. Why spell vamp? Too few avenues to get the stat?
too few ways to get it and they're all tier 2/3 items.
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On December 23 2011 04:13 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2011 04:12 Two_DoWn wrote:On December 23 2011 04:10 TheYango wrote:On December 23 2011 03:53 jcarlsoniv wrote:
His aoe slow/stun seems retarded op. Doesn't seem like there's ever a chance to get out of it in time to avoid stun unless he misses HORRIBLY. It seems as if Brand's W slowed you so you always took the pillar.
How can you say this when we have no idea how big the AoE is? The Brand comparison is pretty stupid also, seeing as a delay that's on the order of 0.5-0.75 seconds is hardly comparable to a 1.5 second delay. Also consider that it's a CC spell that does no damage. It has to be somewhat strong CC-wise to make up for it, and compared to other damage-less CC spells, this isn't exactly out of line (it's arguably weaker than Veigar's E for example). We HAVE seen how big it is... and I am inclined to agree. It looked to me as though it is pretty much an autostun if you catch someone anywhere that isnt the very outer edge. OK, even if it's an auto-stun. It's still not out of line compared to Veigar's E. 1.5 sec slow + delayed 1.5 sec stun vs. 2.5 sec immediate stun.
I believe it only takes 1 sec to activate since it applies one mark initially. But i agree doesn't seem overly strong compared to something like rupture.
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On December 23 2011 04:24 Kaniol wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2011 03:28 Two_DoWn wrote:
As for vicktors item, Im sure that late game everyone is going to wish they could sell that piece of junk and get a decent item. Is it confirmed that this item will fit one of 6 slots though? I'm kinda confused by this link since recommended builds for classic include "death" but dominion items don't include any of his unique items
I saw that too. At first I assumed it was a typo. but don't you start with 1300g in dominion? That means you could automatically upgrade the item, which might be broken. So maybe the item is removed in dominion?
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On December 23 2011 04:12 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2011 03:55 Mogwai wrote:On December 23 2011 03:51 Prinate wrote:On December 23 2011 03:25 Alaric wrote:On December 23 2011 02:49 Prinate wrote:
Rough number for replacement cost of just the stat bonuses (not pricing the ability augments, using basic item stat cost) and ignoring the 3ap/level that the slot gets regardless;
Power: health and health regen: 770g
Gravity: mana, cdr, mp5: 1020g
Death: ap: 980g How do you calculate the "basic" price for cdr? Using swifties and Ionian boots? Kindlegem, reduced by the effective cost of the health benefit also received on the item. In the mathcraft thread linked earlier, others reduced it only by the straight cost of it's ruby crystal component, but I disagree with that (just my opinion). It's not a consistent itemization cost, though. If you do the math for stinger, reduced by AS, the cdr would be worth pennies. I'd avoid comparing any stat costs to boots, personally, I think of them as their own tier of item. meh, I disagree pretty heavily with trying to place a gold value on CDR, Spell Vamp, or Movespeed tbh. It's a comparison that's always going to be made, though. In threads or mathcraft where you're trying to figure out if an item is worth the cost, you need to at least try to estimate out a gold amount, or it's impossible to compare one thing to another. And yeah, like people said, it's most "expensive" part is the item slot. However, considering stats, it might be ok, maybe even better than gold-relative items. 99 AP is pretty damn big, the only 2 items that give more (Deathcap/Zhonya's) are fucking expensive. An MS item that's actually worthwhile. And an item that gives range. Not to mention the stats on them. I just don't know. I can see Deathcap with Death doing so much damage though. The more I think about it, I think Power might be good for early game tough lanes. More health, poking power, and the like.
Not to nitpick, but people tend to forget that Archangel's gives a ton of AP. Even with no other mana items you'll be at 1000 base mana + 1400 from AA, so the 3% gives you 72, so you total 117 AP. Admittedly it doesn't work on most casters, and provides no benefit beyond the AP and mana so for many characters its not worth it. But in terms of pure AP items its certainly up there.
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On December 23 2011 04:35 starfries wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2011 04:13 TheYango wrote:On December 23 2011 04:12 Two_DoWn wrote:On December 23 2011 04:10 TheYango wrote:On December 23 2011 03:53 jcarlsoniv wrote:
His aoe slow/stun seems retarded op. Doesn't seem like there's ever a chance to get out of it in time to avoid stun unless he misses HORRIBLY. It seems as if Brand's W slowed you so you always took the pillar.
How can you say this when we have no idea how big the AoE is? The Brand comparison is pretty stupid also, seeing as a delay that's on the order of 0.5-0.75 seconds is hardly comparable to a 1.5 second delay. Also consider that it's a CC spell that does no damage. It has to be somewhat strong CC-wise to make up for it, and compared to other damage-less CC spells, this isn't exactly out of line (it's arguably weaker than Veigar's E for example). We HAVE seen how big it is... and I am inclined to agree. It looked to me as though it is pretty much an autostun if you catch someone anywhere that isnt the very outer edge. OK, even if it's an auto-stun. It's still not out of line compared to Veigar's E. 1.5 sec slow + delayed 1.5 sec stun vs. 2.5 sec immediate stun. I believe it only takes 1 sec to activate since it applies one mark initially. But i agree doesn't seem overly strong compared to something like rupture.
But you can run out of something like Rupture. Viktor's stun doesn't seem like you can escape.
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On December 23 2011 04:36 Prinate wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2011 04:24 Kaniol wrote:On December 23 2011 03:28 Two_DoWn wrote:
As for vicktors item, Im sure that late game everyone is going to wish they could sell that piece of junk and get a decent item. Is it confirmed that this item will fit one of 6 slots though? I'm kinda confused by this link since recommended builds for classic include "death" but dominion items don't include any of his unique items I saw that too. At first I assumed it was a typo. but don't you start with 1300g in dominion? That means you could automatically upgrade the item, which might be broken. So maybe the item is removed in dominion?
It's a 6slot item, just check viktor ingame and the builds will have it as his 6th item, it's not in there for the dominion build so probs removed on dominion. Profile-->champs--->viktor--->tips&items.
Fucking riot removed my dodge runes for the 4th time now what is this crap, dont understand why they dont just change them in the same way they're changing ninja tabi(reduce auto dmg) anyways.
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Anyone knows which radio is SaintVicious listening to? Or is it just his playlist
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United States47024 Posts
On December 23 2011 05:12 jcarlsoniv wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2011 04:35 starfries wrote:On December 23 2011 04:13 TheYango wrote:On December 23 2011 04:12 Two_DoWn wrote:On December 23 2011 04:10 TheYango wrote:On December 23 2011 03:53 jcarlsoniv wrote:
His aoe slow/stun seems retarded op. Doesn't seem like there's ever a chance to get out of it in time to avoid stun unless he misses HORRIBLY. It seems as if Brand's W slowed you so you always took the pillar.
How can you say this when we have no idea how big the AoE is? The Brand comparison is pretty stupid also, seeing as a delay that's on the order of 0.5-0.75 seconds is hardly comparable to a 1.5 second delay. Also consider that it's a CC spell that does no damage. It has to be somewhat strong CC-wise to make up for it, and compared to other damage-less CC spells, this isn't exactly out of line (it's arguably weaker than Veigar's E for example). We HAVE seen how big it is... and I am inclined to agree. It looked to me as though it is pretty much an autostun if you catch someone anywhere that isnt the very outer edge. OK, even if it's an auto-stun. It's still not out of line compared to Veigar's E. 1.5 sec slow + delayed 1.5 sec stun vs. 2.5 sec immediate stun. I believe it only takes 1 sec to activate since it applies one mark initially. But i agree doesn't seem overly strong compared to something like rupture. But you can run out of something like Rupture. Viktor's stun doesn't seem like you can escape.
You're assuming that the spell is balanced around it being possible to escape, which I don't think is the case. The fact that it has mechanics like that in practice just imposes a skill factor on good placement of the spell. With proper use, it should be like Veigar stun, where the CC is guaranteed in the hands of someone who's using it properly.
And again, Rupture does damage. It's hard to compare the CC spells that do damage vs. the ones that don't--the ones that don't like Wither tend to be extremely strong in the CC department to make up for it.
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On December 23 2011 05:14 JackDino wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2011 04:36 Prinate wrote:On December 23 2011 04:24 Kaniol wrote:On December 23 2011 03:28 Two_DoWn wrote:
As for vicktors item, Im sure that late game everyone is going to wish they could sell that piece of junk and get a decent item. Is it confirmed that this item will fit one of 6 slots though? I'm kinda confused by this link since recommended builds for classic include "death" but dominion items don't include any of his unique items I saw that too. At first I assumed it was a typo. but don't you start with 1300g in dominion? That means you could automatically upgrade the item, which might be broken. So maybe the item is removed in dominion? It's a 6slot item, just check viktor ingame and the builds will have it as his 6th item, it's not in there for the dominion build so probs removed on dominion. Profile-->champs--->viktor--->tips&items. Fucking riot removed my dodge runes for the 4th time now what is this crap, dont understand why they dont just change them in the same way they're changing ninja tabi(reduce auto dmg) anyways.
'cause most people would rather have their IP back than use a useless rune. They could add them as a new option, but probably not worth the time spent trying to balance them to be worth taking.
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On December 23 2011 05:17 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2011 05:12 jcarlsoniv wrote:On December 23 2011 04:35 starfries wrote:On December 23 2011 04:13 TheYango wrote:On December 23 2011 04:12 Two_DoWn wrote:On December 23 2011 04:10 TheYango wrote:On December 23 2011 03:53 jcarlsoniv wrote:
His aoe slow/stun seems retarded op. Doesn't seem like there's ever a chance to get out of it in time to avoid stun unless he misses HORRIBLY. It seems as if Brand's W slowed you so you always took the pillar.
How can you say this when we have no idea how big the AoE is? The Brand comparison is pretty stupid also, seeing as a delay that's on the order of 0.5-0.75 seconds is hardly comparable to a 1.5 second delay. Also consider that it's a CC spell that does no damage. It has to be somewhat strong CC-wise to make up for it, and compared to other damage-less CC spells, this isn't exactly out of line (it's arguably weaker than Veigar's E for example). We HAVE seen how big it is... and I am inclined to agree. It looked to me as though it is pretty much an autostun if you catch someone anywhere that isnt the very outer edge. OK, even if it's an auto-stun. It's still not out of line compared to Veigar's E. 1.5 sec slow + delayed 1.5 sec stun vs. 2.5 sec immediate stun. I believe it only takes 1 sec to activate since it applies one mark initially. But i agree doesn't seem overly strong compared to something like rupture. But you can run out of something like Rupture. Viktor's stun doesn't seem like you can escape. You're assuming that the spell is balanced around it being possible to escape, which I don't think is the case. The fact that it has mechanics like that in practice just imposes a skill factor on good placement of the spell. With proper use, it should be like Veigar stun, where the CC is guaranteed in the hands of someone who's using it properly. And again, Rupture does damage. It's hard to compare the CC spells that do damage vs. the ones that don't--the ones that don't like Wither tend to be extremely strong in the CC department to make up for it.
However, it is unlike Veigar's stun in many ways. Even if a group is clumped up, it's hard to get all 5 with his stun ring. With Viktor's stun, if they're remotely near one another, you can get a big group. There's not really a comparable ability aside from Cho's Rupture. Those seem to be the only two ranged AoE CCs that affect an area like that.
I mean, I guess you can count Veigar's, but even landing it on one target is a trick and a half sometimes.
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EPT
