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Want to rage about your latest loss? Use the QQ thread. If you whine in GD, you'll get warned. ===== + Show Spoiler +If your [Stream] thread was moved to the general TL Stream subforum (aka SC stream land), find your thread and PM it to me and I'll move it back to LoL territory. I can argue with staff that moving a non-SC thread into a SC subforum is just asking for that thread to get buried.
- Neo, Dec. 15 2011, 6:33 KST I have admin approval. I'll be moving LoL streams back to the subforum. Stream name will be based on Summoner name. - Neo 7:07 KST |
On December 23 2011 06:45 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2011 05:41 Requizen wrote:
However, it is unlike Veigar's stun in many ways. Even if a group is clumped up, it's hard to get all 5 with his stun ring. With Viktor's stun, if they're remotely near one another, you can get a big group. There's not really a comparable ability aside from Cho's Rupture. Those seem to be the only two ranged AoE CCs that affect an area like that.
I mean, I guess you can count Veigar's, but even landing it on one target is a trick and a half sometimes. Of course, it has a different effective AoE from Veigar's stun. That's what makes it different. I don't see how the circular AoE is inherently "better" than the ring AoE on Veigar's stun (especially since the stun from Veigar's E is immediate). It's just better under different circumstances.
It's inherently better than ring aoe stuns cause it has a larger area of stun. if you want a garantued stun on veigar you have to sacrifice the placement of your ring by alot, a circle doesn't have those problems.
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On December 23 2011 06:49 Hynda wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2011 06:45 TheYango wrote:On December 23 2011 05:41 Requizen wrote:
However, it is unlike Veigar's stun in many ways. Even if a group is clumped up, it's hard to get all 5 with his stun ring. With Viktor's stun, if they're remotely near one another, you can get a big group. There's not really a comparable ability aside from Cho's Rupture. Those seem to be the only two ranged AoE CCs that affect an area like that.
I mean, I guess you can count Veigar's, but even landing it on one target is a trick and a half sometimes. Of course, it has a different effective AoE from Veigar's stun. That's what makes it different. I don't see how the circular AoE is inherently "better" than the ring AoE on Veigar's stun (especially since the stun from Veigar's E is immediate). It's just better under different circumstances. It's inherently better than ring aoe stuns cause it has a larger area of stun. if you want a garantued stun on veigar you have to sacrifice the placement of your ring by alot, a circle doesn't have those problems.
Kinda dumb to compare it to veigar stun anyways, better to compare it to something like Leona ult. Best is to not compare it at all because 1 vid which might not even be the final version doesn't tell you much, just wait till the spotlight is out atleast.
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On December 23 2011 06:49 Hynda wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2011 06:45 TheYango wrote:On December 23 2011 05:41 Requizen wrote:
However, it is unlike Veigar's stun in many ways. Even if a group is clumped up, it's hard to get all 5 with his stun ring. With Viktor's stun, if they're remotely near one another, you can get a big group. There's not really a comparable ability aside from Cho's Rupture. Those seem to be the only two ranged AoE CCs that affect an area like that.
I mean, I guess you can count Veigar's, but even landing it on one target is a trick and a half sometimes. Of course, it has a different effective AoE from Veigar's stun. That's what makes it different. I don't see how the circular AoE is inherently "better" than the ring AoE on Veigar's stun (especially since the stun from Veigar's E is immediate). It's just better under different circumstances. It's inherently better than ring aoe stuns cause it has a larger area of stun. if you want a garantued stun on veigar you have to sacrifice the placement of your ring by alot, a circle doesn't have those problems.
But if you want Viktor's stun to hit multiple people, some targets are going to be near the edge and will be able to escape. Not to mention that anyone with a dash or blink will be able to escape it if they react quickly. Different abilities are different.
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On December 23 2011 06:45 JackDino wrote:
I think ignore unit colission is dumb anyways, if you really want it pick ghost. Always running trough minions OP.
That was the first Tabi remake, before the DR.
And Yango, it is inherently better in most ways. Either one is dangerous to be around, or walk into, but Veigar's is just less scary all-around. It has less stun area, can miss easier, and even if you place it "well", but they're inside, they can still run in circles and shoot stuff out of it.
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On December 23 2011 06:54 Harrow wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2011 06:49 Hynda wrote:On December 23 2011 06:45 TheYango wrote:On December 23 2011 05:41 Requizen wrote:
However, it is unlike Veigar's stun in many ways. Even if a group is clumped up, it's hard to get all 5 with his stun ring. With Viktor's stun, if they're remotely near one another, you can get a big group. There's not really a comparable ability aside from Cho's Rupture. Those seem to be the only two ranged AoE CCs that affect an area like that.
I mean, I guess you can count Veigar's, but even landing it on one target is a trick and a half sometimes. Of course, it has a different effective AoE from Veigar's stun. That's what makes it different. I don't see how the circular AoE is inherently "better" than the ring AoE on Veigar's stun (especially since the stun from Veigar's E is immediate). It's just better under different circumstances. It's inherently better than ring aoe stuns cause it has a larger area of stun. if you want a garantued stun on veigar you have to sacrifice the placement of your ring by alot, a circle doesn't have those problems. But if you want Viktor's stun to hit multiple people, some targets are going to be near the edge and will be able to escape. Not to mention that anyone with a dash or blink will be able to escape it if they react quickly. Different abilities are different.
But it's like this:
With Veigar's stun, there's a small chance that you'll get more than one or two if they're in a group.
With Viktor's (by it's current look), there's a small chance you'll miss one or two if they're in a group.
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United States47024 Posts
On December 23 2011 06:54 JackDino wrote:
Kinda dumb to compare it to veigar stun anyways, better to compare it to something like Leona ult. Best is to not compare it at all because 1 vid which might not even be the final version doesn't tell you much, just wait till the spotlight is out atleast.
Except again, that does damage. The point is that the expectation for damage-less CC is much higher than CC that comes with damage. Viktor's W would be ridiculously powerful if it did have damage, but comparing it to similar AoE nukes, it seems fine, IMO when you consider how strong the CC on other non-damaging CC spells is.
On December 23 2011 06:57 Requizen wrote:
But it's like this:
With Veigar's stun, there's a small chance that you'll get more than one or two if they're in a group.
With Viktor's (by it's current look), there's a small chance you'll miss one or two if they're in a group.
And the cost of that is that 1) your stun isn't immediate, 2) your stun is a whole second shorter, and 3) your effective range is much shorter.
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I think it would be better to compare it to an alistar wq combo, There's that chance the guy you're w-ing is going to flash and you're going to miss that 3 man knock up.
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On December 23 2011 06:54 Harrow wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2011 06:49 Hynda wrote:On December 23 2011 06:45 TheYango wrote:On December 23 2011 05:41 Requizen wrote:
However, it is unlike Veigar's stun in many ways. Even if a group is clumped up, it's hard to get all 5 with his stun ring. With Viktor's stun, if they're remotely near one another, you can get a big group. There's not really a comparable ability aside from Cho's Rupture. Those seem to be the only two ranged AoE CCs that affect an area like that.
I mean, I guess you can count Veigar's, but even landing it on one target is a trick and a half sometimes. Of course, it has a different effective AoE from Veigar's stun. That's what makes it different. I don't see how the circular AoE is inherently "better" than the ring AoE on Veigar's stun (especially since the stun from Veigar's E is immediate). It's just better under different circumstances. It's inherently better than ring aoe stuns cause it has a larger area of stun. if you want a garantued stun on veigar you have to sacrifice the placement of your ring by alot, a circle doesn't have those problems. But if you want Viktor's stun to hit multiple people, some targets are going to be near the edge and will be able to escape. Not to mention that anyone with a dash or blink will be able to escape it if they react quickly. Different abilities are different. And sets are different aswell. But a ring stun will always be inherently worse than a circle stun because of its nature. 's all I'm sayin'
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On December 23 2011 06:59 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2011 06:54 JackDino wrote:
Kinda dumb to compare it to veigar stun anyways, better to compare it to something like Leona ult. Best is to not compare it at all because 1 vid which might not even be the final version doesn't tell you much, just wait till the spotlight is out atleast. Except again, that does damage. The point is that the expectation for damage-less CC is much higher than CC that comes with damage. Viktor's W would be ridiculously powerful if it did have damage, but comparing it to similar AoE nukes, it seems fine, IMO when you consider how strong the CC on other non-damaging CC spells is.
Maybe, it's just dumb to compare 2 spells about stunning people when they're completely different, I havent'seen the vid but I'm pretty sure that viktor's W isn't as big as veig stun nor does it only stun on the edges.
It's like comparing a line to a square.
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United States47024 Posts
On December 23 2011 07:02 JackDino wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2011 06:59 TheYango wrote:On December 23 2011 06:54 JackDino wrote:
Kinda dumb to compare it to veigar stun anyways, better to compare it to something like Leona ult. Best is to not compare it at all because 1 vid which might not even be the final version doesn't tell you much, just wait till the spotlight is out atleast. Except again, that does damage. The point is that the expectation for damage-less CC is much higher than CC that comes with damage. Viktor's W would be ridiculously powerful if it did have damage, but comparing it to similar AoE nukes, it seems fine, IMO when you consider how strong the CC on other non-damaging CC spells is. Maybe, it's just dumb to compare 2 spells about stunning people when they're completely different, I havent'seen the vid but I'm pretty sure that viktor's W isn't as big as veig stun nor does it only stun on the edges. It's like comparing a line to a square.
I mean, the point I'm trying to make is that a rough comparison should make it pretty apparent that Viktor's stun isn't really over-the-top.
Of course they're not that similar, and Viktor's stun might be somewhat stronger. But my point is that Viktor's stun doesn't look way out of line in terms of power-level.
The comparison to Veigar's stun is at the very least more apt than people comparing Viktor's W to stuff like Rupture and then saying OMG OP while ignoring the fact that Rupture has high base damage and an AP ratio.
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On December 23 2011 07:03 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2011 07:02 JackDino wrote:On December 23 2011 06:59 TheYango wrote:On December 23 2011 06:54 JackDino wrote:
Kinda dumb to compare it to veigar stun anyways, better to compare it to something like Leona ult. Best is to not compare it at all because 1 vid which might not even be the final version doesn't tell you much, just wait till the spotlight is out atleast. Except again, that does damage. The point is that the expectation for damage-less CC is much higher than CC that comes with damage. Viktor's W would be ridiculously powerful if it did have damage, but comparing it to similar AoE nukes, it seems fine, IMO when you consider how strong the CC on other non-damaging CC spells is. Maybe, it's just dumb to compare 2 spells about stunning people when they're completely different, I havent'seen the vid but I'm pretty sure that viktor's W isn't as big as veig stun nor does it only stun on the edges. It's like comparing a line to a square. I mean, the point I'm trying to make is that a rough comparison should make it pretty apparent that Viktor's stun isn't really over-the-top. Of course they're not that similar, and Viktor's stun might be somewhat stronger. But my point is that Viktor's stun doesn't look way out of line in terms of power-level.
It's a 1.5sec stun with a .5-1sec delay factoring in the slow that does no damage and is a skillshot, I don't see how it would be OP unless it has a 3sec cd.
Thing is, no one has seen the final version used in an actual game or used it/dodged it/got hit by it, can't really complain about it already.
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United States47024 Posts
On December 23 2011 07:05 JackDino wrote:
It's a 1.5sec stun with a .5-1sec delay factoring in the slow that does no damage and is a skillshot, I don't see how it would be OP unless it has a 3sec cd.
The whole discussion started when I responded to a post saying that Viktor's W looked insanely OP because of how reliable it is.
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On December 23 2011 07:07 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2011 07:05 JackDino wrote:
It's a 1.5sec stun with a .5-1sec delay factoring in the slow that does no damage and is a skillshot, I don't see how it would be OP unless it has a 3sec cd. The whole discussion started when I responded to a post saying that Viktor's W looked insanely OP because of how reliable it is.
Thread moves too fast to remember things sometimes.
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I'd not say OP, but still really strong, definitely one of the better team fighting abilities out there just from a rough view that we have.
And as far as the stun being shorter goes, that's true, but you can't discount the ~1-1.5 seconds of slow that comes with that. It's high disruption even if everyone gets out, because now they've scattered, blown movement abilities, and were slowed while your team gets to position and engage. I'm not calling OP or whatever, I'm just excited for the possibilities with it.
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Weren't we trying to cut down on the pure speculation about champs before their release?
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On December 23 2011 07:11 spinesheath wrote:
Weren't we trying to cut down on the pure speculation about champs before their release?
If so, that's my fault. Was just trying to share thoughts.
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I think this is the first time I've watch nhat stream... jesus, that guy is so good. He's carrying his team so hard right now.
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Rofl, 1100 ELO is hilarious sometimes. You can get away with the craziest shit and still win.
Playing Cho top against garen, bullying him around a bit. Game opens pretty standard, I get the normal Catalyst -> RoA, Mercs, Wits end, but then I got the crazy idea of going phage (I was AAing a lot), that evolved into getting a triforce and then an Atmas.
End game: 10/3/12.
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that's not a particularly bad build
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On December 23 2011 07:33 57 Corvette wrote:
Rofl, 1100 ELO is hilarious sometimes. You can get away with the craziest shit and still win.
Playing Cho top against garen, bullying him around a bit. Game opens pretty standard, I get the normal Catalyst -> RoA, Mercs, Wits end, but then I got the crazy idea of going phage (I was AAing a lot), that evolved into getting a triforce and then an Atmas.
End game: 10/3/12.
Triforce cho good @ all elos, AP cho real strong too.
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EPT
