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Hi everybody,
As a low Elo LoL player (around 1500), I still have quite a hard time grasping the science of countering. I'm opening this thread to have a discussion around this, and to ask for your help in becoming a better counter-picker.
The first thing to note is that you can't take all champions and work on all the game match-ups one by one. With 3741 possible 1v1s, the work is just way too big.
The first part of studying counterpicks will therefore be to categorize champions with general traits. Of course, the builds will change a lot of match-ups during the game, but as we're talking of lane counters, early game (let's say before 4k gold) is the most important. Very specific lane counters will be talked of, but as those usually rely on the 4 spells a champion has and their utility, I think we can't generalize them easily.
Thank you for your help and your time, I'll update this first post a lot to have a strong information base on this. If you think we need a few more general category for champions, please tell ! And of course, please help me work on the «how to counter» section.
As an ending note to this introduction, let me point out I'll only talk of laning match-ups. Jungle match-ups are entirely different and should be treated as such.
How to categorize champions :
Attack type :
- Ranged
- Melee with gap closer
- Melee
Sustainability :
- Heavy sustain
- Low sustain
- No sustain
Damage type :
Base numbers
Difficulty to 1v1 (escapes, tankiness) :
Targets of damages
Pushing power
How to counter :
The goal is to counter the ennemy champion on the most points. If you counter him on only one or two points, the match-up can most likely be forced into a stalemate.
Attack type : A ranged character has a very big edge on a melee char in the early game. Denying him XP and creeps wil be possible and he'll never be full life when ganks come. You can force backs as well. If he has a gap closer, he more than likely has more damage than you, and as you shouldn't be able to kite him too much early on, he should have an advantage. Finally, if you're a melee and your opponent is a melee with a gap closer, there is a high chance this means you can dish out more damage if he comes on you, which should help you win the lane.
- Ranged > Melee
- Melee with gap closer > Range
- Melee > Melee with gap closer
Sustainability : a high sustain champ generally is better, as he can afford unfavorable trades knowing he'll heal back faster. When your sustain is quite low, potions by themselves will outsustain you, so it doesn't really matter.
- Heavy sustain > No sustain
Damage type : this is quite linked with the escapes and abilities to 1v1. Generally speaking, a heavy harasser (Cassio, Orianna, GP) will beat a heavy burster, by forcing him out of lane early then being able to live through their burst thanks to the better CS. But if the burst is really way too big and you can't mitigate it, the burster should win once he has his full burst (around lvl6 usually). Typically, Leblanc is very good VS Orianna, because even if Oriana harasses Leblanc close to death, as long as Leblanc can get to lvl6 at the same time than Orianna, she'll burst her to death, and Orianna won't be able to burst her for her remaining life because of her mobility. I think this really is too match-up dependant though. But harassers surely have the upper hand on sustain damage, because they will have 2 or 3 of their CDs up if they can force an 8-10s 1v1, and as the opponent should come with approximately 2/3rd health, you should be able tokill him before he dished out all his damage. On the other hand, I feel like bursters lose to sustained damage chars, as long as they build early to survive the burst.
- Harass > Sustained damage
- Burst = Harass
- Burst < Sustained damage
Numbers : if your spells do a lot of base damages but your ratios are poor, you'd better dominate your lane, as you're given the opportunity to. But don't forget this will backfire hardcore late game.
- High base damages > strong scaling
1v1 abilities : of course, if your champ is a 1v1 monster (Pantheon, Leblanc, GP, Xin, ...), you'll have an edge.
- Being good at forcing winning 1v1s helps you win your lane (NO KIDDING)
Targets of damage : as well, having a lot of AoE is game changing late game, but is supposed to be weaker in lane, as your opponent can spend ALL his damage on you and you're «wasting» damage hitting the ground.
Pushing power : finally, having the liberty to push very fast is definitly a big asset in lane. If you can clear, gank, and be back in time for clearing the next wave (Singed, god knows I love you <3), you can feed on the other lanes and force your opponent to either creep under tower or creep in the open with very low 1v1 power, as 6 creeps will be hitting them in that case.
- Pushing power is really good if your opponent has a hard time clearing waves
Crossed counters : sometimes, being better than an opponent in a certain domain isn't what matters ! /!\ I need help on this one, it's one of the most important /!\
- Burst > Sustain if the sustainer lacks burst mitigation
- Harass > No or low sustain
Hard counters :
As those ones are really character dependant, I'll need a lot of help.
Here is what I have :
- Teemo > Bruisers
- Nasus > Yorick
- Kassadin > Standard AoE AP (past 6 and with blue)
- Cassiopiea > Sion (pops his shield in less than a second, nullifies half his damage)
- ADs (Talon, ranged carries) > Kassadin
Conclusion :
I really hope we can get this running into a nice database for beginners at counter picking ! If you feel like helping, go on ! I'll update it at least for the next month or so and I'd really like to get better at choosing my picks.
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My personal favorite is Soraka counter to Karthus, he uses ulti, you use ulti to top team off shutting down his ulti
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You might have missed this one.
CC heavy team > gap closer melees.
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Ryze, Kennen > Singed
Not sure but these two might counter most bruisers. Morg top also counters a lot.
Also while it is true that Nasus can get Q stacks from Yoricks ghouls, Yorick can still be hard to deal with the first levels until Q has a fairly low cd. Due to low aspd Nasus can't also just autoattack the damage from Yoricks E+W combo away and both do magic damage. But yeah still advantage for Nasus, though I am not sure if it is a complete counter to him.
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Swain n1 bird counters most top heroes. You really need to outburst him, as pretty much nothing can outsustain him. Short trades or longer fights to the death, swain comes out a head against most bruisers.
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I dunno I see a problem with this....the thread can be kind of misleading.
Honestly until you get to high elo, champion counters 1v1 are almost entirely skill-based (with a few exceptions).
I'm sure a high elo player could beat me on Kass as almost any AP champ, for example.
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That is right. I have beaten a Nasus with Yorick by quite a margin, hence my post. But it is very possible that I was on fire that game and/or that Nasus had a bad game... or I was his first Yorick opponent.
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United States37500 Posts
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I'm a little confused by the Melee > Melee w/gap closer. What defines gap closer? Is a movement speed bonus a gap closer or is it restrict to moves like renekton/tryn/riven/jarvan?
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Yep, I had read that, but it was character focused and not attributes focused. I think having a broad approach like this can be interesting!
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United States37500 Posts
On November 22 2011 03:19 mr_tolkien wrote:Yep, I had read that, but it was character focused and not attributes focused. I think having a broad approach like this can be interesting!
Just throwing it out there. Your OP is well made so I wasn't insinuating anything.
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Could some one answer my generic question about melee gap closers? Do movement speed enhancements qualify as gap closers Shyvana/Garen, or only things like Wukong/Jarvan
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On November 22 2011 03:43 Sabin010 wrote:
Could some one answer my generic question about melee gap closers? Do movement speed enhancements qualify as gap closers Shyvana/Garen, or only things like Wukong/Jarvan
Skills that actually move you like wukong are generally regarded as gap closers. Ms bonuses are nice but it's basically the difference between ghost and flash.
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they count as gap closers but they function differently, i.e. its a lot easier to stop speed gap closers with kite and slows i.e. zilean slow, ashe frost, and the lazerbird
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On November 22 2011 03:43 Sabin010 wrote:
Could some one answer my generic question about melee gap closers? Do movement speed enhancements qualify as gap closers Shyvana/Garen, or only things like Wukong/Jarvan
Movement speed enhancements do help, but they aren't really gap closers simply because they get affected by slow and is much easier to stun.
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On November 22 2011 02:10 disformation wrote:
Ryze, Kennen > Singed
Not sure but these two might counter most bruisers. Morg top also counters a lot.
Also while it is true that Nasus can get Q stacks from Yoricks ghouls, Yorick can still be hard to deal with the first levels until Q has a fairly low cd. Due to low aspd Nasus can't also just autoattack the damage from Yoricks E+W combo away and both do magic damage. But yeah still advantage for Nasus, though I am not sure if it is a complete counter to him.
Your first two goes into the range > melee and harass > small/no sustain. This is what I'm trying to avoid in this list. The Teemo > bruiser is so strong that I put it in the list (it really is a HARD counter).
On the Yorick VS Nasus matter, the fact is that if you don't counter Nasus in lane, you probably lose the game. He isn't a real lane counter but transforms his match up in a quasi-sure win.
On November 22 2011 02:16 zodde wrote:
Swain n1 bird counters most top heroes. You really need to outburst him, as pretty much nothing can outsustain him. Short trades or longer fights to the death, swain comes out a head against most bruisers.
Like the previous one, range > melee and harass > small/no sustain. It's not a special concept.
On November 22 2011 02:16 WaveofShadow wrote:
I dunno I see a problem with this....the thread can be kind of misleading.
Honestly until you get to high elo, champion counters 1v1 are almost entirely skill-based (with a few exceptions).
I'm sure a high elo player could beat me on Kass as almost any AP champ, for example.
Kass VS AP is a post-6 counter, so it's quite normal. But 1v1 are NOT almost entirely skill-based before high Elo. Try playing Singed VS GP, even if the GP is absolutely terrible and have troubles pressing Q when his mouse hovers on you, you'll more than likely lose your lane, or at best force a stalemate. But you can't WIN your lane VS a GP with a brain.
On November 22 2011 02:50 Sabin010 wrote:
I'm a little confused by the Melee > Melee w/gap closer. What defines gap closer? Is a movement speed bonus a gap closer or is it restrict to moves like renekton/tryn/riven/jarvan?
I was thinking to a real jump like Jax/Renekton/Tryndamere/Jarvan, the kind of thing that goes through minions and over walls. Normally, your character should make up for the lack of gap closer with other attributes, balancing his TROUBLES coming into melee range, so you should beat a guy who has what it takes to get to melee range.
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Galio > Earlygame AP carries (LeBlanc, etc)
If the Galio player and the AP player are on equal levels of skill, the Galio will win the lane simply because of his passive and building MR from the start (Mercs and Chalice both have MR).
I can think of a few other matchups (Gragas > Brand), but I am not sure about these because skill may have been a factor.
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Cloth5pot > Pantheon > Everything not cloth5pot
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Well in a situation where lets say its Garen vs Xin. Garen can use q as a gap closer with xin not being able to really slow him. Garen can use his q as and escape while Xin really can't use his gap closer to escape. Same thing with Nocturne. He can use Q to chase or escape , but that hard dive R is really only usefull to go in and not out.
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I find that Swain counters a few people like Sion mid. Sion really shouldn't be able to farm that much and Swain will eventually be able to start trading with him, pushing him out of lane thanks to his ult.
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EPT
