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On November 22 2011 05:00 Sabin010 wrote:
Well in a situation where lets say its Garen vs Xin. Garen can use q as a gap closer with xin not being able to really slow him. Garen can use his q as and escape while Xin really can't use his gap closer to escape. Same thing with Nocturne. He can use Q to chase or escape , but that hard dive R is really only usefull to go in and not out.
I'd put Garen is the non gap closer part, whereas Xin has one. So, given what I said, it would mean Garen makes Xin Xao a sad panda in lane.
Isn't it what you're trying to say ? Because we agree in that case :p
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What if you just go fuck him up as xin? If you use E Q and W his silence is useless, and assuming you have good runes and started cloth you heal for a fuckton especially when he has wriggles. He's only option is to Q and spin away but you'll probably get the knockup off and can move hit to prevent him getting away.
I'm not totally 100% sure since I haven't played xin top for a while but I remember beating garen.
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There are only 87 champions. It'd be easier to remember how to counter each one than to go through infinity^n permutations of combinations.
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On November 22 2011 05:38 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:
There are only 87 champions. It'd be easier to remember how to counter each one than to go through infinity^n permutations of combinations.
There is no set counter to every champion, this game isn't that easy. I honestly dislike this thread; counterpicks should be handled individually per champion thread IMO.
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On November 22 2011 07:40 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 05:38 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:
There are only 87 champions. It'd be easier to remember how to counter each one than to go through infinity^n permutations of combinations. There is no set counter to every champion this game isn't that easy I honestly dislike this thread counterpicks should be handled individually per champion thread IMO.
I honestly feel that you're missing some punctuation. 
For what it's worth there are some champions that are countered by employing strategies more specific than "wait until ability X is on cooldown, then harass."
It might be worth mentioning them. (I.e. How to deal with Teemo shrooms in top lane? How to bait out a Wukong clone? Maybe these are bad examples, I dunno.)
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On November 22 2011 08:27 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 07:40 Slayer91 wrote:On November 22 2011 05:38 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:
There are only 87 champions. It'd be easier to remember how to counter each one than to go through infinity^n permutations of combinations. There is no set counter to every champion this game isn't that easy I honestly dislike this thread counterpicks should be handled individually per champion thread IMO. I honestly feel that you're missing some punctuation. For what it's worth there are some champions that are countered by employing strategies more specific than "wait until ability X is on cooldown, then harass." It might be worth mentioning them. (I.e. How to deal with Teemo shrooms in top lane? How to bait out a Wukong clone? Maybe these are bad examples, I dunno.)
Fixed 
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On November 22 2011 07:20 Morphx2 wrote:
Trundle > top lane
Definitely agree. He has a built in sustain that doesn't even require use of an ability.
Few people might be able to take him down. Udyr v Trundle sounds fairly even, caster could probably beat him, and Sion sounds threatening.
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While trundle does have the sustain, if you combine it to the herass some champs can put out there (Udyr to name one), that sustain wont save him ánd get him cs.
Toplane is a very cool lane, its very counterpicksensitive and theres sooo many options.
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Trundle top is a hilarious counter to yorick, as his passive activates on the ghouls' dying (though I feel like Nasus is generally a better pick, and is unlikely to be banned). I think the other, older thread should be about specific matchups though, and this one can just stick to general counterpick strategy
@OP I was going to write a lengthy post questioning your "damage types" category/conclusions, but you seem unsure on that section yourself so I decided not to. I also think that
On November 22 2011 02:16 WaveofShadow wrote:
I dunno I see a problem with this....the thread can be kind of misleading.
Honestly until you get to high elo, champion counters 1v1 are almost entirely skill-based (with a few exceptions).
I'm sure a high elo player could beat me on Kass as almost any AP champ, for example.
holds a lot of truth, as runes, masteries, summoner spells, and items turn hard counters into soft counters, and jungle ganks can nullify the advantages completely. For instance, in Jax vs Nasus, (a matchup I'm very familiar with), Nasus would have a category advantage, mostly through sustain and pushing power. However, while building against physical damage is as simple as runes + tabi + wriggles = invincible armor god, building against Jax's hybrid damage is much more troublesome, and he picks up around 6 when he starts dealing magic damage every three hits. Nasus on the other hand works great with allied ganks (whither OP), while Jax doesn't have as reliable a CC, especially at early levels, and can't contribute as much when his allies gank.
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A very specific one that comes to my mind is Swain against a Morg mid. If the enemy team ever gets a Morg as their AP carry mid, I'll pick Swain to counter it. Very effective.
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How? She's got range, can push while Swain's pretty bad at it, and she's got sustain from level 1 onward. I don't see how you could ever trap her in a tether. Tho she'll have a pretty hard time killing you, I admit.
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Gotta agree with that. All Swains abilities have a duration to either activate or do full damage. A black shield is easy to negate atleast 50% of the damage on you, and all the stuns.
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As Riven is getting increasingly popular I'll add that renekton massacres riven in lane.
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On November 23 2011 00:21 Hynda wrote:
As Riven is getting increasingly popular I'll add that renekton massacres riven in lane.
I've heard alot of good riven players disagree with that.
Ryze needs extra credit as a counter to melee in general and more specifically Garen/Singed etc, its far more than just ranged over non-ranged, his tanky builds and root on a 2 second CD lategame are brutal to them in every regard.
Hardest counter in the game is Kassadin vs Karthus IMO, literally every aspect of Kassadin is tailored specifically to ruin karthus once he hits lvl6. But I'm sure most people already knew that.
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Here's the thing with laning against Riven: the trick is to initiate the harassment on her before she initiates on you. If you let her E+W on you, you're going to come out behind. On the other hand, if you engage first, and if you are playing a champ that can do enough damage, you will come out ahead.
With this in mind, I believe that Renekton can crush Riven in lane if he's played well. What would concern me though is that Renekton's initiation move (E) has a fairly short range, which would make it easier for Riven to jump in. That said, given the amount of damage that Rene does, it may not matter.
Wukong also beats Riven if played right. The monkey's E has a long enough range to where he can always determine when the fight will occur, and the combination of Q and W ensure that he can do enough damage and avoid enough damage to make any exchange worthwhile.
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IMO you're looking at it wrong. Because you're talking about 1v1 counter picking, not 5v5 counter picking. Which is completely different. Because if you're counter picking against a certain person, for example, on the first pick, it doesn't always work out the best over all, merely because of 5's synergy and what not.
And sometimes you want to sacrifice the ability to "counter", with the ability to "synergy" with your teammates.
Best way to look at it is to look at the teams as a whole, and then go through which champions offer the most variety of counter, and synergy.
For example, you could pick a champion that does okay against all the enemy champions, or a champion that hard counters a specific one, or a champion that does poorly against enemy champions, but would increase team synergy (a hard CC champion).
I think you're trying to look for an answer that doesn't really exist. Just play more games!
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Cait > Kass so hard lol
so if enemy team picks kass to counter your ap you just go fuck you nerd and send ap bot and ad mid
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On November 23 2011 01:49 wei2coolman wrote:
IMO you're looking at it wrong. Because you're talking about 1v1 counter picking, not 5v5 counter picking. Which is completely different. Because if you're counter picking against a certain person, for example, on the first pick, it doesn't always work out the best over all, merely because of 5's synergy and what not.
And sometimes you want to sacrifice the ability to "counter", with the ability to "synergy" with your teammates.
Best way to look at it is to look at the teams as a whole, and then go through which champions offer the most variety of counter, and synergy.
For example, you could pick a champion that does okay against all the enemy champions, or a champion that hard counters a specific one, or a champion that does poorly against enemy champions, but would increase team synergy (a hard CC champion).
I think you're trying to look for an answer that doesn't really exist. Just play more games!
This is why this thread is about lane counters, which still is a very big part of the game. Teamfights are nice, but completly dominating an opponent in lane is cool as well.
On November 22 2011 07:40 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 05:38 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:
There are only 87 champions. It'd be easier to remember how to counter each one than to go through infinity^n permutations of combinations. There is no set counter to every champion, this game isn't that easy. I honestly dislike this thread; counterpicks should be handled individually per champion thread IMO.
On November 22 2011 19:40 Wetty wrote:
A very specific one that comes to my mind is Swain against a Morg mid. If the enemy team ever gets a Morg as their AP carry mid, I'll pick Swain to counter it. Very effective.
On November 22 2011 22:28 Alaric wrote:
How? She's got range, can push while Swain's pretty bad at it, and she's got sustain from level 1 onward. I don't see how you could ever trap her in a tether. Tho she'll have a pretty hard time killing you, I admit.
On November 22 2011 23:13 ihasaKAROT wrote:
Gotta agree with that. All Swains abilities have a duration to either activate or do full damage. A black shield is easy to negate atleast 50% of the damage on you, and all the stuns.
This whole discussion reflects what I was NOT trying to do in this thread. Swain VS Morgana is by no mean a real «counter», because Morgana can pool farm in ALL match ups with no problems.
She has the pushing advantage on a lot of characters, is ranged, has heavy sustain, and her damage is bursty. She can as well initiate/win 1v1s with not much problem, or fly away to safety in case a gank comes.
All this shows she is a very strong laner and hard to counterpick, thanks to her attributes, and if you don't have a real hard counter that disables one of her forces (typically what AD do VS Kassadin, mitigating his passive), you won't have a real counter.
Let's think in term of champion attributes, and before posting «counters», please try to see if it could fit in a more general zone than character specific matchups !
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I'm surprised this many people are saying that Nasus hard counters Yorick. I mean, I've never had a problem forcing a Nasus to play defensively and farm half as much as me or risk dying. Literally the worst case situation I find myself as Yorick vs Nasus is him getting close to my farm and us both being 0-0. I know he does better with farm, but how is he a hard counter to someone he has to play defensive vs or die?
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EPT
