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Hi everybody,
As a low Elo LoL player (around 1500), I still have quite a hard time grasping the science of countering. I'm opening this thread to have a discussion around this, and to ask for your help in becoming a better counter-picker.
The first thing to note is that you can't take all champions and work on all the game match-ups one by one. With 3741 possible 1v1s, the work is just way too big.
The first part of studying counterpicks will therefore be to categorize champions with general traits. Of course, the builds will change a lot of match-ups during the game, but as we're talking of lane counters, early game (let's say before 4k gold) is the most important. Very specific lane counters will be talked of, but as those usually rely on the 4 spells a champion has and their utility, I think we can't generalize them easily.
Thank you for your help and your time, I'll update this first post a lot to have a strong information base on this. If you think we need a few more general category for champions, please tell ! And of course, please help me work on the «how to counter» section.
As an ending note to this introduction, let me point out I'll only talk of laning match-ups. Jungle match-ups are entirely different and should be treated as such.
How to categorize champions :
Attack type :
- Ranged
- Melee with gap closer
- Melee
Sustainability :
- Heavy sustain
- Low sustain
- No sustain
Damage type :
Base numbers
Difficulty to 1v1 (escapes, tankiness) :
Targets of damages
Pushing power
How to counter :
The goal is to counter the ennemy champion on the most points. If you counter him on only one or two points, the match-up can most likely be forced into a stalemate.
Attack type : A ranged character has a very big edge on a melee char in the early game. Denying him XP and creeps wil be possible and he'll never be full life when ganks come. You can force backs as well. If he has a gap closer, he more than likely has more damage than you, and as you shouldn't be able to kite him too much early on, he should have an advantage. Finally, if you're a melee and your opponent is a melee with a gap closer, there is a high chance this means you can dish out more damage if he comes on you, which should help you win the lane.
- Ranged > Melee
- Melee with gap closer > Range
- Melee > Melee with gap closer
Sustainability : a high sustain champ generally is better, as he can afford unfavorable trades knowing he'll heal back faster. When your sustain is quite low, potions by themselves will outsustain you, so it doesn't really matter.
- Heavy sustain > No sustain
Damage type : this is quite linked with the escapes and abilities to 1v1. Generally speaking, a heavy harasser (Cassio, Orianna, GP) will beat a heavy burster, by forcing him out of lane early then being able to live through their burst thanks to the better CS. But if the burst is really way too big and you can't mitigate it, the burster should win once he has his full burst (around lvl6 usually). Typically, Leblanc is very good VS Orianna, because even if Oriana harasses Leblanc close to death, as long as Leblanc can get to lvl6 at the same time than Orianna, she'll burst her to death, and Orianna won't be able to burst her for her remaining life because of her mobility. I think this really is too match-up dependant though. But harassers surely have the upper hand on sustain damage, because they will have 2 or 3 of their CDs up if they can force an 8-10s 1v1, and as the opponent should come with approximately 2/3rd health, you should be able tokill him before he dished out all his damage. On the other hand, I feel like bursters lose to sustained damage chars, as long as they build early to survive the burst.
- Harass > Sustained damage
- Burst = Harass
- Burst < Sustained damage
Numbers : if your spells do a lot of base damages but your ratios are poor, you'd better dominate your lane, as you're given the opportunity to. But don't forget this will backfire hardcore late game.
- High base damages > strong scaling
1v1 abilities : of course, if your champ is a 1v1 monster (Pantheon, Leblanc, GP, Xin, ...), you'll have an edge.
- Being good at forcing winning 1v1s helps you win your lane (NO KIDDING)
Targets of damage : as well, having a lot of AoE is game changing late game, but is supposed to be weaker in lane, as your opponent can spend ALL his damage on you and you're «wasting» damage hitting the ground.
Pushing power : finally, having the liberty to push very fast is definitly a big asset in lane. If you can clear, gank, and be back in time for clearing the next wave (Singed, god knows I love you <3), you can feed on the other lanes and force your opponent to either creep under tower or creep in the open with very low 1v1 power, as 6 creeps will be hitting them in that case.
- Pushing power is really good if your opponent has a hard time clearing waves
Crossed counters : sometimes, being better than an opponent in a certain domain isn't what matters ! /!\ I need help on this one, it's one of the most important /!\
- Burst > Sustain if the sustainer lacks burst mitigation
- Harass > No or low sustain
Hard counters :
As those ones are really character dependant, I'll need a lot of help.
Here is what I have :
- Teemo > Bruisers
- Nasus > Yorick
- Kassadin > Standard AoE AP (past 6 and with blue)
- Cassiopiea > Sion (pops his shield in less than a second, nullifies half his damage)
- ADs (Talon, ranged carries) > Kassadin
Conclusion :
I really hope we can get this running into a nice database for beginners at counter picking ! If you feel like helping, go on ! I'll update it at least for the next month or so and I'd really like to get better at choosing my picks.
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My personal favorite is Soraka counter to Karthus, he uses ulti, you use ulti to top team off shutting down his ulti
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You might have missed this one.
CC heavy team > gap closer melees.
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Ryze, Kennen > Singed
Not sure but these two might counter most bruisers. Morg top also counters a lot.
Also while it is true that Nasus can get Q stacks from Yoricks ghouls, Yorick can still be hard to deal with the first levels until Q has a fairly low cd. Due to low aspd Nasus can't also just autoattack the damage from Yoricks E+W combo away and both do magic damage. But yeah still advantage for Nasus, though I am not sure if it is a complete counter to him.
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Swain n1 bird counters most top heroes. You really need to outburst him, as pretty much nothing can outsustain him. Short trades or longer fights to the death, swain comes out a head against most bruisers.
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I dunno I see a problem with this....the thread can be kind of misleading.
Honestly until you get to high elo, champion counters 1v1 are almost entirely skill-based (with a few exceptions).
I'm sure a high elo player could beat me on Kass as almost any AP champ, for example.
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That is right. I have beaten a Nasus with Yorick by quite a margin, hence my post. But it is very possible that I was on fire that game and/or that Nasus had a bad game... or I was his first Yorick opponent.
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United States37500 Posts
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I'm a little confused by the Melee > Melee w/gap closer. What defines gap closer? Is a movement speed bonus a gap closer or is it restrict to moves like renekton/tryn/riven/jarvan?
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Yep, I had read that, but it was character focused and not attributes focused. I think having a broad approach like this can be interesting!
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United States37500 Posts
On November 22 2011 03:19 mr_tolkien wrote:Yep, I had read that, but it was character focused and not attributes focused. I think having a broad approach like this can be interesting!
Just throwing it out there. Your OP is well made so I wasn't insinuating anything.
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Could some one answer my generic question about melee gap closers? Do movement speed enhancements qualify as gap closers Shyvana/Garen, or only things like Wukong/Jarvan
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On November 22 2011 03:43 Sabin010 wrote:
Could some one answer my generic question about melee gap closers? Do movement speed enhancements qualify as gap closers Shyvana/Garen, or only things like Wukong/Jarvan
Skills that actually move you like wukong are generally regarded as gap closers. Ms bonuses are nice but it's basically the difference between ghost and flash.
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they count as gap closers but they function differently, i.e. its a lot easier to stop speed gap closers with kite and slows i.e. zilean slow, ashe frost, and the lazerbird
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On November 22 2011 03:43 Sabin010 wrote:
Could some one answer my generic question about melee gap closers? Do movement speed enhancements qualify as gap closers Shyvana/Garen, or only things like Wukong/Jarvan
Movement speed enhancements do help, but they aren't really gap closers simply because they get affected by slow and is much easier to stun.
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On November 22 2011 02:10 disformation wrote:
Ryze, Kennen > Singed
Not sure but these two might counter most bruisers. Morg top also counters a lot.
Also while it is true that Nasus can get Q stacks from Yoricks ghouls, Yorick can still be hard to deal with the first levels until Q has a fairly low cd. Due to low aspd Nasus can't also just autoattack the damage from Yoricks E+W combo away and both do magic damage. But yeah still advantage for Nasus, though I am not sure if it is a complete counter to him.
Your first two goes into the range > melee and harass > small/no sustain. This is what I'm trying to avoid in this list. The Teemo > bruiser is so strong that I put it in the list (it really is a HARD counter).
On the Yorick VS Nasus matter, the fact is that if you don't counter Nasus in lane, you probably lose the game. He isn't a real lane counter but transforms his match up in a quasi-sure win.
On November 22 2011 02:16 zodde wrote:
Swain n1 bird counters most top heroes. You really need to outburst him, as pretty much nothing can outsustain him. Short trades or longer fights to the death, swain comes out a head against most bruisers.
Like the previous one, range > melee and harass > small/no sustain. It's not a special concept.
On November 22 2011 02:16 WaveofShadow wrote:
I dunno I see a problem with this....the thread can be kind of misleading.
Honestly until you get to high elo, champion counters 1v1 are almost entirely skill-based (with a few exceptions).
I'm sure a high elo player could beat me on Kass as almost any AP champ, for example.
Kass VS AP is a post-6 counter, so it's quite normal. But 1v1 are NOT almost entirely skill-based before high Elo. Try playing Singed VS GP, even if the GP is absolutely terrible and have troubles pressing Q when his mouse hovers on you, you'll more than likely lose your lane, or at best force a stalemate. But you can't WIN your lane VS a GP with a brain.
On November 22 2011 02:50 Sabin010 wrote:
I'm a little confused by the Melee > Melee w/gap closer. What defines gap closer? Is a movement speed bonus a gap closer or is it restrict to moves like renekton/tryn/riven/jarvan?
I was thinking to a real jump like Jax/Renekton/Tryndamere/Jarvan, the kind of thing that goes through minions and over walls. Normally, your character should make up for the lack of gap closer with other attributes, balancing his TROUBLES coming into melee range, so you should beat a guy who has what it takes to get to melee range.
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Galio > Earlygame AP carries (LeBlanc, etc)
If the Galio player and the AP player are on equal levels of skill, the Galio will win the lane simply because of his passive and building MR from the start (Mercs and Chalice both have MR).
I can think of a few other matchups (Gragas > Brand), but I am not sure about these because skill may have been a factor.
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Cloth5pot > Pantheon > Everything not cloth5pot
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Well in a situation where lets say its Garen vs Xin. Garen can use q as a gap closer with xin not being able to really slow him. Garen can use his q as and escape while Xin really can't use his gap closer to escape. Same thing with Nocturne. He can use Q to chase or escape , but that hard dive R is really only usefull to go in and not out.
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I find that Swain counters a few people like Sion mid. Sion really shouldn't be able to farm that much and Swain will eventually be able to start trading with him, pushing him out of lane thanks to his ult.
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On November 22 2011 05:00 Sabin010 wrote:
Well in a situation where lets say its Garen vs Xin. Garen can use q as a gap closer with xin not being able to really slow him. Garen can use his q as and escape while Xin really can't use his gap closer to escape. Same thing with Nocturne. He can use Q to chase or escape , but that hard dive R is really only usefull to go in and not out.
I'd put Garen is the non gap closer part, whereas Xin has one. So, given what I said, it would mean Garen makes Xin Xao a sad panda in lane.
Isn't it what you're trying to say ? Because we agree in that case :p
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What if you just go fuck him up as xin? If you use E Q and W his silence is useless, and assuming you have good runes and started cloth you heal for a fuckton especially when he has wriggles. He's only option is to Q and spin away but you'll probably get the knockup off and can move hit to prevent him getting away.
I'm not totally 100% sure since I haven't played xin top for a while but I remember beating garen.
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There are only 87 champions. It'd be easier to remember how to counter each one than to go through infinity^n permutations of combinations.
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On November 22 2011 05:38 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:
There are only 87 champions. It'd be easier to remember how to counter each one than to go through infinity^n permutations of combinations.
There is no set counter to every champion, this game isn't that easy. I honestly dislike this thread; counterpicks should be handled individually per champion thread IMO.
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On November 22 2011 07:40 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 05:38 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:
There are only 87 champions. It'd be easier to remember how to counter each one than to go through infinity^n permutations of combinations. There is no set counter to every champion this game isn't that easy I honestly dislike this thread counterpicks should be handled individually per champion thread IMO.
I honestly feel that you're missing some punctuation. 
For what it's worth there are some champions that are countered by employing strategies more specific than "wait until ability X is on cooldown, then harass."
It might be worth mentioning them. (I.e. How to deal with Teemo shrooms in top lane? How to bait out a Wukong clone? Maybe these are bad examples, I dunno.)
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On November 22 2011 08:27 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 07:40 Slayer91 wrote:On November 22 2011 05:38 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:
There are only 87 champions. It'd be easier to remember how to counter each one than to go through infinity^n permutations of combinations. There is no set counter to every champion this game isn't that easy I honestly dislike this thread counterpicks should be handled individually per champion thread IMO. I honestly feel that you're missing some punctuation. For what it's worth there are some champions that are countered by employing strategies more specific than "wait until ability X is on cooldown, then harass." It might be worth mentioning them. (I.e. How to deal with Teemo shrooms in top lane? How to bait out a Wukong clone? Maybe these are bad examples, I dunno.)
Fixed 
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On November 22 2011 07:20 Morphx2 wrote:
Trundle > top lane
Definitely agree. He has a built in sustain that doesn't even require use of an ability.
Few people might be able to take him down. Udyr v Trundle sounds fairly even, caster could probably beat him, and Sion sounds threatening.
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While trundle does have the sustain, if you combine it to the herass some champs can put out there (Udyr to name one), that sustain wont save him ánd get him cs.
Toplane is a very cool lane, its very counterpicksensitive and theres sooo many options.
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Trundle top is a hilarious counter to yorick, as his passive activates on the ghouls' dying (though I feel like Nasus is generally a better pick, and is unlikely to be banned). I think the other, older thread should be about specific matchups though, and this one can just stick to general counterpick strategy
@OP I was going to write a lengthy post questioning your "damage types" category/conclusions, but you seem unsure on that section yourself so I decided not to. I also think that
On November 22 2011 02:16 WaveofShadow wrote:
I dunno I see a problem with this....the thread can be kind of misleading.
Honestly until you get to high elo, champion counters 1v1 are almost entirely skill-based (with a few exceptions).
I'm sure a high elo player could beat me on Kass as almost any AP champ, for example.
holds a lot of truth, as runes, masteries, summoner spells, and items turn hard counters into soft counters, and jungle ganks can nullify the advantages completely. For instance, in Jax vs Nasus, (a matchup I'm very familiar with), Nasus would have a category advantage, mostly through sustain and pushing power. However, while building against physical damage is as simple as runes + tabi + wriggles = invincible armor god, building against Jax's hybrid damage is much more troublesome, and he picks up around 6 when he starts dealing magic damage every three hits. Nasus on the other hand works great with allied ganks (whither OP), while Jax doesn't have as reliable a CC, especially at early levels, and can't contribute as much when his allies gank.
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A very specific one that comes to my mind is Swain against a Morg mid. If the enemy team ever gets a Morg as their AP carry mid, I'll pick Swain to counter it. Very effective.
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How? She's got range, can push while Swain's pretty bad at it, and she's got sustain from level 1 onward. I don't see how you could ever trap her in a tether. Tho she'll have a pretty hard time killing you, I admit.
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Gotta agree with that. All Swains abilities have a duration to either activate or do full damage. A black shield is easy to negate atleast 50% of the damage on you, and all the stuns.
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As Riven is getting increasingly popular I'll add that renekton massacres riven in lane.
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On November 23 2011 00:21 Hynda wrote:
As Riven is getting increasingly popular I'll add that renekton massacres riven in lane.
I've heard alot of good riven players disagree with that.
Ryze needs extra credit as a counter to melee in general and more specifically Garen/Singed etc, its far more than just ranged over non-ranged, his tanky builds and root on a 2 second CD lategame are brutal to them in every regard.
Hardest counter in the game is Kassadin vs Karthus IMO, literally every aspect of Kassadin is tailored specifically to ruin karthus once he hits lvl6. But I'm sure most people already knew that.
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Here's the thing with laning against Riven: the trick is to initiate the harassment on her before she initiates on you. If you let her E+W on you, you're going to come out behind. On the other hand, if you engage first, and if you are playing a champ that can do enough damage, you will come out ahead.
With this in mind, I believe that Renekton can crush Riven in lane if he's played well. What would concern me though is that Renekton's initiation move (E) has a fairly short range, which would make it easier for Riven to jump in. That said, given the amount of damage that Rene does, it may not matter.
Wukong also beats Riven if played right. The monkey's E has a long enough range to where he can always determine when the fight will occur, and the combination of Q and W ensure that he can do enough damage and avoid enough damage to make any exchange worthwhile.
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IMO you're looking at it wrong. Because you're talking about 1v1 counter picking, not 5v5 counter picking. Which is completely different. Because if you're counter picking against a certain person, for example, on the first pick, it doesn't always work out the best over all, merely because of 5's synergy and what not.
And sometimes you want to sacrifice the ability to "counter", with the ability to "synergy" with your teammates.
Best way to look at it is to look at the teams as a whole, and then go through which champions offer the most variety of counter, and synergy.
For example, you could pick a champion that does okay against all the enemy champions, or a champion that hard counters a specific one, or a champion that does poorly against enemy champions, but would increase team synergy (a hard CC champion).
I think you're trying to look for an answer that doesn't really exist. Just play more games!
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Cait > Kass so hard lol
so if enemy team picks kass to counter your ap you just go fuck you nerd and send ap bot and ad mid
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On November 23 2011 01:49 wei2coolman wrote:
IMO you're looking at it wrong. Because you're talking about 1v1 counter picking, not 5v5 counter picking. Which is completely different. Because if you're counter picking against a certain person, for example, on the first pick, it doesn't always work out the best over all, merely because of 5's synergy and what not.
And sometimes you want to sacrifice the ability to "counter", with the ability to "synergy" with your teammates.
Best way to look at it is to look at the teams as a whole, and then go through which champions offer the most variety of counter, and synergy.
For example, you could pick a champion that does okay against all the enemy champions, or a champion that hard counters a specific one, or a champion that does poorly against enemy champions, but would increase team synergy (a hard CC champion).
I think you're trying to look for an answer that doesn't really exist. Just play more games!
This is why this thread is about lane counters, which still is a very big part of the game. Teamfights are nice, but completly dominating an opponent in lane is cool as well.
On November 22 2011 07:40 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 05:38 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:
There are only 87 champions. It'd be easier to remember how to counter each one than to go through infinity^n permutations of combinations. There is no set counter to every champion, this game isn't that easy. I honestly dislike this thread; counterpicks should be handled individually per champion thread IMO.
On November 22 2011 19:40 Wetty wrote:
A very specific one that comes to my mind is Swain against a Morg mid. If the enemy team ever gets a Morg as their AP carry mid, I'll pick Swain to counter it. Very effective.
On November 22 2011 22:28 Alaric wrote:
How? She's got range, can push while Swain's pretty bad at it, and she's got sustain from level 1 onward. I don't see how you could ever trap her in a tether. Tho she'll have a pretty hard time killing you, I admit.
On November 22 2011 23:13 ihasaKAROT wrote:
Gotta agree with that. All Swains abilities have a duration to either activate or do full damage. A black shield is easy to negate atleast 50% of the damage on you, and all the stuns.
This whole discussion reflects what I was NOT trying to do in this thread. Swain VS Morgana is by no mean a real «counter», because Morgana can pool farm in ALL match ups with no problems.
She has the pushing advantage on a lot of characters, is ranged, has heavy sustain, and her damage is bursty. She can as well initiate/win 1v1s with not much problem, or fly away to safety in case a gank comes.
All this shows she is a very strong laner and hard to counterpick, thanks to her attributes, and if you don't have a real hard counter that disables one of her forces (typically what AD do VS Kassadin, mitigating his passive), you won't have a real counter.
Let's think in term of champion attributes, and before posting «counters», please try to see if it could fit in a more general zone than character specific matchups !
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I'm surprised this many people are saying that Nasus hard counters Yorick. I mean, I've never had a problem forcing a Nasus to play defensively and farm half as much as me or risk dying. Literally the worst case situation I find myself as Yorick vs Nasus is him getting close to my farm and us both being 0-0. I know he does better with farm, but how is he a hard counter to someone he has to play defensive vs or die?
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On November 23 2011 05:36 Zdrastochye wrote:
I'm surprised this many people are saying that Nasus hard counters Yorick. I mean, I've never had a problem forcing a Nasus to play defensively and farm half as much as me or risk dying. Literally the worst case situation I find myself as Yorick vs Nasus is him getting close to my farm and us both being 0-0. I know he does better with farm, but how is he a hard counter to someone he has to play defensive vs or die?
I would think that a Yorick would shit on Nasus pretty hard because Nasus doesn't have good enough sustain or good enough harass to counter Yorick's bullshit.
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On November 23 2011 05:36 Zdrastochye wrote:
I'm surprised this many people are saying that Nasus hard counters Yorick. I mean, I've never had a problem forcing a Nasus to play defensively and farm half as much as me or risk dying. Literally the worst case situation I find myself as Yorick vs Nasus is him getting close to my farm and us both being 0-0. I know he does better with farm, but how is he a hard counter to someone he has to play defensive vs or die?
Nasus is supposed to lose his lane. VS Yorick, he goes very fast into the state where is Q hits hard enough to deter you of touching a single creep.
Nasus not losing his lane is a counter by itself :p
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United States47024 Posts
On November 23 2011 05:36 Zdrastochye wrote:
I'm surprised this many people are saying that Nasus hard counters Yorick. I mean, I've never had a problem forcing a Nasus to play defensively and farm half as much as me or risk dying. Literally the worst case situation I find myself as Yorick vs Nasus is him getting close to my farm and us both being 0-0. I know he does better with farm, but how is he a hard counter to someone he has to play defensive vs or die?
Because he massively outscales you?
In any matchup involving a hard carry (Riven, Nasus, Jax, etc.), if the other side does not scale equally well, the burden is on them to CRUSH the carry in lane. Trading farm isn't good enough when the other laner does more with the farm than you do.
Nasus does lose to Yorick early. Playing aggressive early and trying to kill Nasus with jungle help are probably the best ways to play that lane. The problem is that Nasus is capable of stabilizing the lane and farming after a few levels if he didn't die, and unless Yorick played those early levels extremely well and put Nasus really behind, he probably didn't stop Nasus' farm as much as he needs to.
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On November 23 2011 06:11 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2011 05:36 Zdrastochye wrote:
I'm surprised this many people are saying that Nasus hard counters Yorick. I mean, I've never had a problem forcing a Nasus to play defensively and farm half as much as me or risk dying. Literally the worst case situation I find myself as Yorick vs Nasus is him getting close to my farm and us both being 0-0. I know he does better with farm, but how is he a hard counter to someone he has to play defensive vs or die? Because he massively outscales you? In any matchup involving a hard carry (Riven, Nasus, Jax, etc.), if the other side does not scale equally well, the burden is on them to CRUSH the carry in lane. Trading farm isn't good enough when the other laner does more with the farm than you do. Nasus does lose to Yorick early. Playing aggressive early and trying to kill Nasus with jungle help are probably the best ways to play that lane. The problem is that Nasus is capable of stabilizing the lane and farming after a few levels if he didn't die, and unless Yorick played those early levels extremely well and put Nasus really behind, he probably didn't stop Nasus' farm as much as he needs to.
^This.
Basically nasus as well as other hypercarries outscale yorick/other good earlygame lane champs (aka panth, yorick, garen, etc).
You need to outright win your lane by killing them and/or stopping their farm, while farming yourself to be able to turn your earlygame advantage into a midgame advantage and end the game before the opponent reaches their "oh fuck" zone. (aka, oh fuck, nasus just took half my life with 1 q)
If you don't they will outscale you and be able to do more for their team mid-lategame. Yorick in particular has to use ghouls to harass nasus, which, luckily for nasus, lose health and in turn can be 1 shot by nasus q np. So to harass nasus you're basically giving him q farm.
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On November 23 2011 01:49 wei2coolman wrote:
I think you're trying to look for an answer that doesn't really exist. Just play more games!
I second this. This whole thread is trying to create some magical formula for counterpicking when there isn't one.
Certain champs beat particular champs, but only for certain reasons. You can't win a lane that requires you to be aggressive if you can't be aggressive without dying because they have e.g. lee sin or shaco. Any matchup involves BOTH solos AND the jungler to decide who wins, assuming equal skill.
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While not all of those rules apply in all situations, I think they are quite helpful for general rules of thumb!
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Not to mention there are a bunch of champs that personally can go against the general trend. For example, I know for a fact that no matter who I play, I will lose a lane to a rumble. On the other hand, I dont think I have ever lost lane to a cassiopia, or been forced from bot and forced to buy a wriggles by a caitlyn.
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I am a big fan of topics like this because it attempts to help the community improve it’s level of play without just saying ‘play more games noob’
Doing research and knowing how to practice will help players more then just playing more games, where you do it wrong every single game til one magical day you get a good counter strategy.
With that said I do not agree with how this thread is attempting to solve the problem of counter picking. It is solving it with a low elo strategy while attempting to get into high elo games.
I feel like more importantly to lane counters is team composition and knowing how to pick the correctly during the draft. Lane counters are great and all but the higher the skill of your opponent the less kills you will get so focusing on assuming you will counter them in the lane phase is not the right frame of mind.
Each spot is important during the draft and communication is usually needed to have a good team.
Team 1 Team 2
1 2
4 3
5 6
8 7
9 10
Imo
Spot 1
the first pick, ideal based on the bans of course you want to get a solid first pick that will 1) not be easily countered 2) will work as a building block or corner stone to your team.
The first pick I think has 2 strategies…
1) based on the bans. If mainly AP carries and AP Assassin’s are ban I like to take my best AP carry that is left.
2)Second strategy is if someone on the team specializes on a certain role or champion and it is available I take it for them or myself.
Spots 2 & 3
Strategy starts to come into play with these picks. The information you have is their first pick and the bans. There are a few strategies with these picks
1) You can try to counter the first pick
2) You can block potential dangerous pairings ie: Sion & Alistar Stun > Pulverize > Headbutt > Stun combo can be annoying
3) You can get the best available AP or AD carry since the other team was only able to secure one of them
4) Secure a specialty character that your team plays well
Spots 4, 5, 6, & 7
These spots tend to be your fill in and roll player picks, you want to make sure you start filling the spots your team needs. Keeping good team synergy is done with these picks.
Spots 8 & 9
The information picks. These two picks know what the team wants to accomplish, they understand how the game will go and what team fights will look like. Counter picking the end game or early game matters here more.
Spot 10
The final counter. You technically have about 70 characters to choose from so the options are many… but you have 1 role to fill, you have to make it count. Hopefully your team is strong and you can counter what you know the other team will attempt to do.
I feel like the above would make for better teams and a solid experience that you can actually learn from even in solo que games…. Because we all know elo hell starts at the character select screen.
Now for what the thread ask for counters…. not everyone will agree with these
Nasus – I think when a team picks a Nasus the are pretty much saying “he will stay top for the first 25 mins then join us” use this to your advantage. Sustain and punish him in lane when he tries to get his CS, and a good jungler with CC constantly invading top helps.
Kennan – Alistar/Lee Sin/Gragas Prevent his Ult from controlling the game by pushing him completely away from his desired locations
Assassins like Lee Sin/Riven/Talon soft countered by Janna’s Ult protects their main target and blows their timers by controlling your space.
just my .02
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at my elo, i'm not sure we counterpick. just get the highest tier champ that's left for the role you're going for. generally those tier 1 champs dont get wrecked by anything too badly that you didn't ban already.
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Regarding ranged matchups, would it be a correct assertion that slightly outranged means soft countered?
Example: Lux > Brand > Annie
I use Lux to counter Brand mid with moderate success but somehow end up losing to Annie. Whereas Brand normally relies on his superior spell range to control the lane, I have to play very cautiously against Annie because of the threat of flash --> Tibbers instagib. This is due to the fact that Lux must build more "glass cannony" than Brand to have equal damage.
I am curious as for how this works for ranged carries. I know that Caitlyn is strong in lane phase because of her superior range. But how does she play out against, for example Graves? He is like the "melee with gap closer" version of ranged carries. I'm not sure if the range theory applies to him though as he is just all around strong in lane.
I hate to be cluttering the thread with theorycraft, but I have this idea that Pantheon would counter Gangplank in lane, due to his passive blocking parrley harass but I have never had an opportunity to try it out. Can anyone confirm if this is viable? This probably does not work as Pantheon has to be the aggressor in this matchup due to lesser scaling, but I would appreciate a comment from one of the higher ranked players in this forum (preferable above 1700 current elo).
Edit: For reference I am around 1500 elo
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Panth does somewhat counter GP toplane, but you have to keep that passive up, without getting herassed. Its alot of backnforth action.
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On November 24 2011 21:42 ihasaKAROT wrote:
Panth does somewhat counter GP toplane, but you have to keep that passive up, without getting herassed. Its alot of backnforth action.
Thanks for the response. Do you mind sharing your elo?
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On November 23 2011 05:45 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2011 05:36 Zdrastochye wrote:
I'm surprised this many people are saying that Nasus hard counters Yorick. I mean, I've never had a problem forcing a Nasus to play defensively and farm half as much as me or risk dying. Literally the worst case situation I find myself as Yorick vs Nasus is him getting close to my farm and us both being 0-0. I know he does better with farm, but how is he a hard counter to someone he has to play defensive vs or die? I would think that a Yorick would shit on Nasus pretty hard because Nasus doesn't have good enough sustain or good enough harass to counter Yorick's bullshit.
Nasus has one of the best sustains in the game are you joking?
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What counters Brand best is movespeed, imo.
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play gangplank at top -> beat/draw with anyone (including nasus)
use ult to help without leaving lane
profit
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On November 24 2011 21:14 Blyf wrote:
I am curious as for how this works for ranged carries. I know that Caitlyn is strong in lane phase because of her superior range. But how does she play out against, for example Graves? He is like the "melee with gap closer" version of ranged carries. I'm not sure if the range theory applies to him though as he is just all around strong in lane.
Having a gap closer is not what makes Graves different, other ranged carries do as well. Caitlyn will have the upper hand on anybody that she outranges as long as she can control the bush.
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On November 25 2011 02:18 Lanzoma wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2011 21:14 Blyf wrote:
I am curious as for how this works for ranged carries. I know that Caitlyn is strong in lane phase because of her superior range. But how does she play out against, for example Graves? He is like the "melee with gap closer" version of ranged carries. I'm not sure if the range theory applies to him though as he is just all around strong in lane. Having a gap closer is not what makes Graves different, other ranged carries do as well. Caitlyn will have the upper hand on anybody that she outranges as long as she can control the bush.
I know other ranged carries have gap closers. What I meant by the "melee with a gap closer" reference is that he is typically stronger once he gets in range, and he has a way of getting there.
So does Caitlyn beat Graves in lane?
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On November 25 2011 01:35 nyxnyxnyx wrote:
play gangplank at top -> beat/draw with anyone (including nasus)
use ult to help without leaving lane
profit
Yeah, GP is a solid pick top, but he lacks a few things (hard CC, gap closer, ...).
Btw I realize that team comp is also something very important, but you have to think to your team comp AND your lane match-up ! You'll be of no use underfarmed, as being a walking ult is not as powerful as in, let's say, DotA.
A Kennen ult won't be very scary if you can kill him before all your team gets stunned, which you should be able to do if he couldn't farm a Zonhya before the big teamfights.
I realize it's important to have a wider point of view on the counter-picking process, but you can't neglect the power of counter-picking a specfic champion !
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doesnt really matter what gangplank doesnt have. what he does have is the capability to win or at least trade even with almost all solo tops, possibly profiting more than usual in a stalemated lane (through gp10 items + parrley bonus gold + ability to help out mapwide with ult). that's pretty damned gay
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Garen counters a lot of top melee top laners
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EPT
