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On November 23 2011 05:36 Zdrastochye wrote:
I'm surprised this many people are saying that Nasus hard counters Yorick. I mean, I've never had a problem forcing a Nasus to play defensively and farm half as much as me or risk dying. Literally the worst case situation I find myself as Yorick vs Nasus is him getting close to my farm and us both being 0-0. I know he does better with farm, but how is he a hard counter to someone he has to play defensive vs or die?
I would think that a Yorick would shit on Nasus pretty hard because Nasus doesn't have good enough sustain or good enough harass to counter Yorick's bullshit.
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On November 23 2011 05:36 Zdrastochye wrote:
I'm surprised this many people are saying that Nasus hard counters Yorick. I mean, I've never had a problem forcing a Nasus to play defensively and farm half as much as me or risk dying. Literally the worst case situation I find myself as Yorick vs Nasus is him getting close to my farm and us both being 0-0. I know he does better with farm, but how is he a hard counter to someone he has to play defensive vs or die?
Nasus is supposed to lose his lane. VS Yorick, he goes very fast into the state where is Q hits hard enough to deter you of touching a single creep.
Nasus not losing his lane is a counter by itself :p
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United States47024 Posts
On November 23 2011 05:36 Zdrastochye wrote:
I'm surprised this many people are saying that Nasus hard counters Yorick. I mean, I've never had a problem forcing a Nasus to play defensively and farm half as much as me or risk dying. Literally the worst case situation I find myself as Yorick vs Nasus is him getting close to my farm and us both being 0-0. I know he does better with farm, but how is he a hard counter to someone he has to play defensive vs or die?
Because he massively outscales you?
In any matchup involving a hard carry (Riven, Nasus, Jax, etc.), if the other side does not scale equally well, the burden is on them to CRUSH the carry in lane. Trading farm isn't good enough when the other laner does more with the farm than you do.
Nasus does lose to Yorick early. Playing aggressive early and trying to kill Nasus with jungle help are probably the best ways to play that lane. The problem is that Nasus is capable of stabilizing the lane and farming after a few levels if he didn't die, and unless Yorick played those early levels extremely well and put Nasus really behind, he probably didn't stop Nasus' farm as much as he needs to.
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On November 23 2011 06:11 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2011 05:36 Zdrastochye wrote:
I'm surprised this many people are saying that Nasus hard counters Yorick. I mean, I've never had a problem forcing a Nasus to play defensively and farm half as much as me or risk dying. Literally the worst case situation I find myself as Yorick vs Nasus is him getting close to my farm and us both being 0-0. I know he does better with farm, but how is he a hard counter to someone he has to play defensive vs or die? Because he massively outscales you? In any matchup involving a hard carry (Riven, Nasus, Jax, etc.), if the other side does not scale equally well, the burden is on them to CRUSH the carry in lane. Trading farm isn't good enough when the other laner does more with the farm than you do. Nasus does lose to Yorick early. Playing aggressive early and trying to kill Nasus with jungle help are probably the best ways to play that lane. The problem is that Nasus is capable of stabilizing the lane and farming after a few levels if he didn't die, and unless Yorick played those early levels extremely well and put Nasus really behind, he probably didn't stop Nasus' farm as much as he needs to.
^This.
Basically nasus as well as other hypercarries outscale yorick/other good earlygame lane champs (aka panth, yorick, garen, etc).
You need to outright win your lane by killing them and/or stopping their farm, while farming yourself to be able to turn your earlygame advantage into a midgame advantage and end the game before the opponent reaches their "oh fuck" zone. (aka, oh fuck, nasus just took half my life with 1 q)
If you don't they will outscale you and be able to do more for their team mid-lategame. Yorick in particular has to use ghouls to harass nasus, which, luckily for nasus, lose health and in turn can be 1 shot by nasus q np. So to harass nasus you're basically giving him q farm.
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On November 23 2011 01:49 wei2coolman wrote:
I think you're trying to look for an answer that doesn't really exist. Just play more games!
I second this. This whole thread is trying to create some magical formula for counterpicking when there isn't one.
Certain champs beat particular champs, but only for certain reasons. You can't win a lane that requires you to be aggressive if you can't be aggressive without dying because they have e.g. lee sin or shaco. Any matchup involves BOTH solos AND the jungler to decide who wins, assuming equal skill.
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While not all of those rules apply in all situations, I think they are quite helpful for general rules of thumb!
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Not to mention there are a bunch of champs that personally can go against the general trend. For example, I know for a fact that no matter who I play, I will lose a lane to a rumble. On the other hand, I dont think I have ever lost lane to a cassiopia, or been forced from bot and forced to buy a wriggles by a caitlyn.
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I am a big fan of topics like this because it attempts to help the community improve it’s level of play without just saying ‘play more games noob’
Doing research and knowing how to practice will help players more then just playing more games, where you do it wrong every single game til one magical day you get a good counter strategy.
With that said I do not agree with how this thread is attempting to solve the problem of counter picking. It is solving it with a low elo strategy while attempting to get into high elo games.
I feel like more importantly to lane counters is team composition and knowing how to pick the correctly during the draft. Lane counters are great and all but the higher the skill of your opponent the less kills you will get so focusing on assuming you will counter them in the lane phase is not the right frame of mind.
Each spot is important during the draft and communication is usually needed to have a good team.
Team 1 Team 2
1 2
4 3
5 6
8 7
9 10
Imo
Spot 1
the first pick, ideal based on the bans of course you want to get a solid first pick that will 1) not be easily countered 2) will work as a building block or corner stone to your team.
The first pick I think has 2 strategies…
1) based on the bans. If mainly AP carries and AP Assassin’s are ban I like to take my best AP carry that is left.
2)Second strategy is if someone on the team specializes on a certain role or champion and it is available I take it for them or myself.
Spots 2 & 3
Strategy starts to come into play with these picks. The information you have is their first pick and the bans. There are a few strategies with these picks
1) You can try to counter the first pick
2) You can block potential dangerous pairings ie: Sion & Alistar Stun > Pulverize > Headbutt > Stun combo can be annoying
3) You can get the best available AP or AD carry since the other team was only able to secure one of them
4) Secure a specialty character that your team plays well
Spots 4, 5, 6, & 7
These spots tend to be your fill in and roll player picks, you want to make sure you start filling the spots your team needs. Keeping good team synergy is done with these picks.
Spots 8 & 9
The information picks. These two picks know what the team wants to accomplish, they understand how the game will go and what team fights will look like. Counter picking the end game or early game matters here more.
Spot 10
The final counter. You technically have about 70 characters to choose from so the options are many… but you have 1 role to fill, you have to make it count. Hopefully your team is strong and you can counter what you know the other team will attempt to do.
I feel like the above would make for better teams and a solid experience that you can actually learn from even in solo que games…. Because we all know elo hell starts at the character select screen.
Now for what the thread ask for counters…. not everyone will agree with these
Nasus – I think when a team picks a Nasus the are pretty much saying “he will stay top for the first 25 mins then join us” use this to your advantage. Sustain and punish him in lane when he tries to get his CS, and a good jungler with CC constantly invading top helps.
Kennan – Alistar/Lee Sin/Gragas Prevent his Ult from controlling the game by pushing him completely away from his desired locations
Assassins like Lee Sin/Riven/Talon soft countered by Janna’s Ult protects their main target and blows their timers by controlling your space.
just my .02
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at my elo, i'm not sure we counterpick. just get the highest tier champ that's left for the role you're going for. generally those tier 1 champs dont get wrecked by anything too badly that you didn't ban already.
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Regarding ranged matchups, would it be a correct assertion that slightly outranged means soft countered?
Example: Lux > Brand > Annie
I use Lux to counter Brand mid with moderate success but somehow end up losing to Annie. Whereas Brand normally relies on his superior spell range to control the lane, I have to play very cautiously against Annie because of the threat of flash --> Tibbers instagib. This is due to the fact that Lux must build more "glass cannony" than Brand to have equal damage.
I am curious as for how this works for ranged carries. I know that Caitlyn is strong in lane phase because of her superior range. But how does she play out against, for example Graves? He is like the "melee with gap closer" version of ranged carries. I'm not sure if the range theory applies to him though as he is just all around strong in lane.
I hate to be cluttering the thread with theorycraft, but I have this idea that Pantheon would counter Gangplank in lane, due to his passive blocking parrley harass but I have never had an opportunity to try it out. Can anyone confirm if this is viable? This probably does not work as Pantheon has to be the aggressor in this matchup due to lesser scaling, but I would appreciate a comment from one of the higher ranked players in this forum (preferable above 1700 current elo).
Edit: For reference I am around 1500 elo
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Panth does somewhat counter GP toplane, but you have to keep that passive up, without getting herassed. Its alot of backnforth action.
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On November 24 2011 21:42 ihasaKAROT wrote:
Panth does somewhat counter GP toplane, but you have to keep that passive up, without getting herassed. Its alot of backnforth action.
Thanks for the response. Do you mind sharing your elo?
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On November 23 2011 05:45 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2011 05:36 Zdrastochye wrote:
I'm surprised this many people are saying that Nasus hard counters Yorick. I mean, I've never had a problem forcing a Nasus to play defensively and farm half as much as me or risk dying. Literally the worst case situation I find myself as Yorick vs Nasus is him getting close to my farm and us both being 0-0. I know he does better with farm, but how is he a hard counter to someone he has to play defensive vs or die? I would think that a Yorick would shit on Nasus pretty hard because Nasus doesn't have good enough sustain or good enough harass to counter Yorick's bullshit.
Nasus has one of the best sustains in the game are you joking?
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What counters Brand best is movespeed, imo.
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play gangplank at top -> beat/draw with anyone (including nasus)
use ult to help without leaving lane
profit
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On November 24 2011 21:14 Blyf wrote:
I am curious as for how this works for ranged carries. I know that Caitlyn is strong in lane phase because of her superior range. But how does she play out against, for example Graves? He is like the "melee with gap closer" version of ranged carries. I'm not sure if the range theory applies to him though as he is just all around strong in lane.
Having a gap closer is not what makes Graves different, other ranged carries do as well. Caitlyn will have the upper hand on anybody that she outranges as long as she can control the bush.
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On November 25 2011 02:18 Lanzoma wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2011 21:14 Blyf wrote:
I am curious as for how this works for ranged carries. I know that Caitlyn is strong in lane phase because of her superior range. But how does she play out against, for example Graves? He is like the "melee with gap closer" version of ranged carries. I'm not sure if the range theory applies to him though as he is just all around strong in lane. Having a gap closer is not what makes Graves different, other ranged carries do as well. Caitlyn will have the upper hand on anybody that she outranges as long as she can control the bush.
I know other ranged carries have gap closers. What I meant by the "melee with a gap closer" reference is that he is typically stronger once he gets in range, and he has a way of getting there.
So does Caitlyn beat Graves in lane?
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On November 25 2011 01:35 nyxnyxnyx wrote:
play gangplank at top -> beat/draw with anyone (including nasus)
use ult to help without leaving lane
profit
Yeah, GP is a solid pick top, but he lacks a few things (hard CC, gap closer, ...).
Btw I realize that team comp is also something very important, but you have to think to your team comp AND your lane match-up ! You'll be of no use underfarmed, as being a walking ult is not as powerful as in, let's say, DotA.
A Kennen ult won't be very scary if you can kill him before all your team gets stunned, which you should be able to do if he couldn't farm a Zonhya before the big teamfights.
I realize it's important to have a wider point of view on the counter-picking process, but you can't neglect the power of counter-picking a specfic champion !
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doesnt really matter what gangplank doesnt have. what he does have is the capability to win or at least trade even with almost all solo tops, possibly profiting more than usual in a stalemated lane (through gp10 items + parrley bonus gold + ability to help out mapwide with ult). that's pretty damned gay
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Garen counters a lot of top melee top laners
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EPT
