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Want to rage about your latest loss? Use the QQ thread. If you whine in GD, you'll get warned. - Neo, 9:49 KST, Nov 9th |
On November 05 2011 03:18 Two_DoWn wrote:
Fine, I'll shut up. My point was merely that back before the ghost nerfs, it really sucked to play against because it was too good at running away. Then they nerfed it, then buffed exhaust. So now both flash and exhaust are better offensively and defensively, something we agree on.
I just dont want ghost to be buffed back to that same level where you had to ghost to catch someone who popped their ghost, and its my general belief that escape summoners should have little incentives to reward using those spells in an offensive manner. I WANT people to run ghost on singed, olaf, and nasus to keep hitting fuckers as they run. Hell, I want people to have to chose between flash and ghost on ranged carries. I have no problem with ghost gaining a vayne like movement buff because it rewards the offensive use of ghost over the defensive use. Whoever loses the fight and tries to run away SHOULD get caught if someone on the other team is willing to burn their ghost to catch them. Thats the only point I'm trying to make.
I guess its my fault for saying that ghost has no offensive use instead of something like ghost doesnt prioritize offensive use as much as flash does because flash initiation is still the best way to initiate in the game. I am aware ghost can be used offensively. I just dont think that atm, even if you buffed it back to where it was, the offensive use would be nearly as good as flash for the vast majority of characters, and instead you would just make the defensive aspects equal to that of exhaust, hence my thought that you should gain movespeed for moving at people. But I could be wrong.
It's different, that's the whole point.
Flash is about the next 1-2 seconds. Ghost is about the next 11.5, it should be about the next 15.5, because it still takes like 4-5 seconds to equalize out with Flash's effect (flash gives you 425 distance, ghost, in most cases, with the mastery will give you ~100 movespeed before diminishing returns), and the amount of ground that one covers in 4-5 seconds is too much to say that even under ideal circumstances, you're wasting the first half of your Ghost just catching up to where Flash was, when Flash is SOOOO much strong instantly. And that's not even considering the cases where you need to take a non-ideal path to follow a flash because they flashed over a wall or whatever. So basically, Ghost spends too much of it's duration catching up to where Flash already is. If instead it's like, hey, you can catch someone who flashed after the first 1/3-1/2 of your duration, you still have time for your over time advantage to manifest itself.
For an analogy, consider burst damage vs. DPS. The only way for DPS to be useful is for it to catch up and pass burst within a reasonable timeframe due to the usefulness of frontloaded effects. So like, a Mage will do 2-3 times as much damage in the first 2 seconds of a fight as a DPS would do, but as the fight drags to 10-15 seconds, the DPS will pass the mage by a lot. In the analogy, Ghost is the DPS and Flash is the Mage. Flash does infinitely more in the first second of a fight and Ghost doesn't even catch up until 4-5 seconds (best case) or up to like 10 seconds in most cases, which is usually more than enough time to disengage or already have leverage the burst affect to a crippling advantage AND right when it starts to catch up, it immediately expires.
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Flash is better anytime you want to cover distance while you're slowed, I.E. while you're exhausted. Slows > ghost in this game only things > slows are cleanses and teleports.
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On November 05 2011 01:38 overt wrote:
About summoner's, the problem Riot has with a lot of the disliked summoner's is how important some of them are to some champions. Like, yeah, you could probably make a case for Flash being a "bad" summoner due to it making ganks and stuff so hard but without Flash champions like Annie or Alistar lose a lot of their appeal.
That said, I wouldn't mind seeing reworks to Exhaust, Flash, and CV. As others have said, reducing the duration and increasing the cooldown on CV might be enough to fix it. I dunno what they can do with Flash and honestly maybe that spell is fine as is (and maybe any attempts at changing it would threaten certain champs way too much to make it worthwhile). I honestly wouldn't mind if they just took Exhaust out of the game, it's just such a flawed concept. Maybe if it like only slowed or something it'd be fine but I hate how much it kills your AD and ability damage making it good to use on any enemy who's going to do a lot of damage or on anyone who dives. There's just nothing more crushing than getting a perfect initiation from a teammate, diving into the enemy AD carry at the right time, and then getting smacked with an Exhaust and be completely unable to do anything at all.
It'd also be nice to see the worthless summoner's get changed or replaced.
Fully spec'd CV has like a 25% uptime (as in, with perfect use, you can reveal an area of the map of your choosing for 25% of the game) which is simply crazy. It can't be countered (shy of killing it's user) and can be used both offensively and defensively. A longer cooldown is really all that is needed for this to be "made better" but doing so further limits the role of a support, since they can't provide help from across the map as often.
I've suggested it before and I'll repeat it here. Flash can't be ported to an item without really messing up some characters. Alistar, who normally forgoes all farm, is significantly less of a threat in his lane without flash for example. If you want to change flash to make it less of a "get out of jail free" card while still retaining its potency for pulling off some crazy stunts or the benefits it has to offensive plays and initiates, then change flash to be effected by slows. For example, if you are slowed by 20%, then the distance covered by flash is also reduced by 20% if you flash while the slow in on you. This change helps in a lot of ways, while not significantly changing how flash is used in many other situations and also doesn't make the spell completely useless defensively if the user has good reaction time and awareness (flashing before you get hit by redbuff for example).
Exhaust is really strong in its current form, but I also feel like many champions are balanced with this in mind and a significant nerf or removal of the spell will create some other balance problems that would need to be addressed (makes burst casters and assassins more potent, ad carries also become stronger) but overall I think a change of the relative strength of the ability needs to be looked at, though I would prefer making the other summoner spells more attractive then making the current popular ones less so.
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On November 05 2011 03:27 HazMat wrote:
Only reason flash is good is because you can blink walls. Ghost is 100% better in all other aspects, except for surviving ganks mid lane.
It's also better, in some regards, as an initiator. You can see someone Ghosting in, and maybe get away. If Galio/Alistar/Nunu Flash on top of you and hit dat Ult, you can't see it coming and can't get away without blowing Flash of your own. Flash also helps negate slows somewhat, whereas Ghost you're still slowed.
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IMO the "Alistar already doesn't take farm so a flash item would screw him up" argument doesn't really apply. HoN/Dota have sand king/magmus who is often a support initiator for a trilane who buys portalkey/whatever it's called in dota to help initiate regularly despite being a support.
Seems to work fine to me as long as the numbers are right.
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Can we stop comparing LoL to DotA and HoN?
Edit: Look at Ghostblade. It gives you a watered down ghost, and an attack speed steroid on a lower CD than ghost. Most of the champs that buy one aren't running ghost as well.
If you put a flash item into the game why not keep flash as well. So we can have champs like le blanc w in and dive you while they still have flash twice kill you 2 towers away and w back to the safety of lane.
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So reemplacement for SK Wickd is SK MoMa.
I like wickd but I think he wasn't really performing in tournaments, hopefully MoMa will icrease SK's firepower
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On November 05 2011 03:33 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 03:18 Two_DoWn wrote:
Fine, I'll shut up. My point was merely that back before the ghost nerfs, it really sucked to play against because it was too good at running away. Then they nerfed it, then buffed exhaust. So now both flash and exhaust are better offensively and defensively, something we agree on.
I just dont want ghost to be buffed back to that same level where you had to ghost to catch someone who popped their ghost, and its my general belief that escape summoners should have little incentives to reward using those spells in an offensive manner. I WANT people to run ghost on singed, olaf, and nasus to keep hitting fuckers as they run. Hell, I want people to have to chose between flash and ghost on ranged carries. I have no problem with ghost gaining a vayne like movement buff because it rewards the offensive use of ghost over the defensive use. Whoever loses the fight and tries to run away SHOULD get caught if someone on the other team is willing to burn their ghost to catch them. Thats the only point I'm trying to make.
I guess its my fault for saying that ghost has no offensive use instead of something like ghost doesnt prioritize offensive use as much as flash does because flash initiation is still the best way to initiate in the game. I am aware ghost can be used offensively. I just dont think that atm, even if you buffed it back to where it was, the offensive use would be nearly as good as flash for the vast majority of characters, and instead you would just make the defensive aspects equal to that of exhaust, hence my thought that you should gain movespeed for moving at people. But I could be wrong. It's different, that's the whole point. Flash is about the next 1-2 seconds. Ghost is about the next 11.5, it should be about the next 15.5, because it still takes like 4-5 seconds to equalize out with Flash's effect (flash gives you 425 distance, ghost, in most cases, with the mastery will give you ~100 movespeed before diminishing returns), and the amount of ground that one covers in 4-5 seconds is too much to say that even under ideal circumstances, you're wasting the first half of your Ghost just catching up to where Flash was, when Flash is SOOOO much strong instantly. And that's not even considering the cases where you need to take a non-ideal path to follow a flash because they flashed over a wall or whatever. So basically, Ghost spends too much of it's duration catching up to where Flash already is. If instead it's like, hey, you can catch someone who flashed after the first 1/3-1/2 of your duration, you still have time for your over time advantage to manifest itself. For an analogy, consider burst damage vs. DPS. The only way for DPS to be useful is for it to catch up and pass burst within a reasonable timeframe due to the usefulness of frontloaded effects. So like, a Mage will do 2-3 times as much damage in the first 2 seconds of a fight as a DPS would do, but as the fight drags to 10-15 seconds, the DPS will pass the mage by a lot. In the analogy, Ghost is the DPS and Flash is the Mage. Flash does infinitely more in the first second of a fight and Ghost doesn't even catch up until 4-5 seconds (best case) or up to like 10 seconds in most cases, which is usually more than enough time to disengage or already have leverage the burst affect to a crippling advantage AND right when it starts to catch up, it immediately expires.
I agree. Thats why I would like to see ghost get some sort of additional benefit that you can use to either shorten the amount of time that flash beats it, or just make the remainder of the duration a lot more effective. Thats why I dont think straight buffing it back to where it was is the answer. In your analysis, defensive ghost doesn't suffer from that same drawback because if you survive their initial attack after someone flashes after you, you are going to get away. So I think ghost is fine defensively as it already is. I think instead that a buff that takes place over the duration that is offensive in nature would be much more useful to the spell than just buffing overall speed back up. I agree the duration should be longer, because realistically once you get away with ghost, it doesnt matter if it lasts for 11 seconds or 14. But if the speed goes back to where it was in every direction I think it would make defensive applications much better than the accompanying offensive applications, simply because diminishing movespeed wont cut the gap between flash and ghost all that much. Instead I think that giving it a vayne like boost, only more powerful would be a great way to cut the gap because it helps be offensive and doesnt make the defensive applications too good, and because it would last for 11 seconds it would be much more useful over the duration of a fight than flash is.
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People also have supports or in some cases other rare cases (amumu) now grab shurelyas instead of a fast aegis/soul shroud nowadays which allows some champs to just grab flash and still have a mini ghost in their support for when it's needed for initiation or retreating. You still want ghost on stuff such as Olaf and nasus though. Back when ghost was more popular shurelyas didn't exist/wasn't really gotten often because it wasn't really understood to be retardedly good.
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http://na.leagueoflegends.com/news/inside-design-summoner-spells-and-season-two
OH HEY LOOK A DISCUSSION ON SUMMONER SPELLS.
Interesting, Rally and Fortify go bye bye. Surge seems to be a Summoner to give an aura, maybe AD/AP/whatever? Promote coming back to SR, only usable on Cannon minions.
Surge might be a good support pick depending on numbers, Promote looks mostly bad unless it's a huge buff, like Cannon to Super Minion level.
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On November 05 2011 03:37 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 03:27 HazMat wrote:
Only reason flash is good is because you can blink walls. Ghost is 100% better in all other aspects, except for surviving ganks mid lane. It's also better, in some regards, as an initiator. You can see someone Ghosting in, and maybe get away. If Galio/Alistar/Nunu Flash on top of you and hit dat Ult, you can't see it coming and can't get away without blowing Flash of your own. Flash also helps negate slows somewhat, whereas Ghost you're still slowed.
Eh, a team with 5 ghost will catch a team with 5 flash 100% of the time. But all they need is to find a wall to blink over and flash is op.
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Flash nerfs going to disproportionately hurt ap carries, imo.
Hypercarries are just going to take cleanse now and rape your squishies, since exhaust was literally the only thing keeping them at bay.
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Edit: Question answered. Too much time doing math, not enough time looking around.
So, I spent most of my day at work reading up on Gragas and theorycrafting. But I think some of the guides I've read are using outdated information. Or maybe the authors were terribad at math from the start. Is there a site that keeps all patch notes organized by character? I was surprised the wikia and some other sites don't seem to keep the notes around character pages.
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Even in dota, most people get Portal Key by the end of the game if they have enough farm. Simply said, the blink mechanic is just VERY good on ALOT of charcters. Making flash a part of boots might be the way to go, but doing something like that still might make them manditory simply because now I can take, Exhast + Ghost and then at 10 minute have access to Flash too?
Seems like a bad idea, but if the argument is that Alistar and Annie need flash, why not make it so their kit doesn't need it? The characters now still function without flash, its just that when it's up they are scarier than walking in on your mother and father.
Giving flash a 1 second CD when hit is also very likely functional, HoN's is something like 5 seconds when hit OR in combat. The only downside to this is, then why even take flash at all if its going to be turned off in the situations where it's most useful? Make the ability offensive only defeats the point of EVERY other (good) summoner spell. Ghost, Exhast, CV, Teleport, even Ignite in some cases can be used for offense or defense. Limiting it's options to ONLY offensive doesn't go with design so I can't actually see them wanting to make that change.
I will say this though. Summoner spells need to go. Too much value on too short of CD's to be any sort of balanced.
Edit: I really need to proofread before hitting submit >.>
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On November 05 2011 03:49 Prinate wrote:
So, I spent most of my day at work reading up on Gragas and theorycrafting. But I think some of the guides I've read are using outdated information. Or maybe the authors were terribad at math from the start. Is there a site that keeps all patch notes organized by character? I was surprised the wikia and some other sites don't seem to keep the notes around character pages.
If you go to the wikia and go to the background section for each character the note history is listed towards the bottom. Wikia also has notes for every item and patch history for every patch.
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On November 05 2011 02:47 barbsq wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 02:37 Two_DoWn wrote:On November 05 2011 02:34 JackDino wrote:On November 05 2011 02:29 Two_DoWn wrote:
I remember when Ghost used to be the default escape spell simply because NOTHING could catch someone who used ghost, except for another ghost. That was WAAAAAYYYYYYYY more unfun than flash simply because ghost is completely 1 dimensional- you use it to run away, never run forward. Flash has offensive and defensive aspects, and it isnt as though flash is a complete get out of jail free card- there are plenty of cases where flash isnt enough to save someone.
IMO they should give ghost a buff like vayne's passive where you gain additional movespeed when moving in the direction of enemies to incentivise to using it offensively. Perhaps give it a 10% additional damage bonus too. And this would make ghost completely useless defense wise. Bad idea. It would still give bonus movespeed when running away as it does now. But as is, even if you rebuff ghost to where it was or close, it STILL only has defensive use. It needs to have offensive use as well IMO. dunno what you're talking about, ghost is still the premiere chase skill in the game and the best in terms of long-term mobility (hence why you STILL take it on singed instead of flash, and you can't tell me that singed needs ghost to escape l0l) its just that the utility of flash is simply too high in comparison to the movement benefit from ghost's current iteration
- Travels through walls
- Instant out of a lot of AoEs
Is there more to it than that? I mean outside of obvious champ interactions that benefit from immediate positioning like Ali knockback or Fid ult.
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Secondary thoughts:
Cleanse removing Ignite/Exhaust is also cool. Flash nerfs are tricky. Too much, useless. Too little, still picked every game.
Oh god Heal buff fuck that I'll never kill anything ever againnnnnnnnn
CV nerf goods.
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On November 05 2011 01:56 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 01:43 Lanzoma wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if they used ruby for small tasks and tools, particularly those without GUI.
Requizen: It really depends on what part of the LoL architecture you want to work on. Do you like server-side work? Do you want to work on the game engine? The LoL client? If you're serious about applying I can give you some pointers as of to what they'll be expecting. I'd really like to be a game designer, but I know that that's the kind of thing they look for a lot of experience with, which is why I'm designing a mobile game when I'm not at my 9-5 job. I like (if you've noticed) talking about balance, champion design, and mechanics, which is really what I'd like to do in the future. Alas, the gaming industry is notoriously difficult to get into if you don't have experience or connections, but I keep trying. Short of that, game engine programming sounds neat, but that's really complex work that I don't know if I'm nearly smart enough to do. I really just want to make something that leaves a mark, that people will enjoy even if they never know that I was part of it. That sounds kinda sappy, but I'm really depressed and loathing of my current rote desk programming job. I really just want to get out of here and do something that I look forward to every day.
This is the position you're looking for:
http://riotgames.com/careers/assistant-game-designer
You need to be well versed in game design and have a compelling case for yourself. Having prototypes and showing drive is good, but you should also work on general design knowledge.
Here are some resources you should look into,
+ Show Spoiler +- Daniel Cook (Indie Designer) Website. Google+. Follow this man. He shares really interesting articles about game design on a consistent basis, and has some awesome content of his own in his website. Read through his blog archives, watch his presentations. Unfortunately, most of his shared articles were lost in the recent Google Reader redesign, but he's starting anew at Google+. - Online resources GDC Talks: Free recordings. Gamasutra: Quality game design articles by the dozen. The Art of Computer Game Design by Chris Crawford: Basic game design principles, some outdated ideas (1982). Free PDF. - Books Man, Play and Games by Roger Caillois: A study of "Play" and why we do it. Classic book. Rules of Play, Game Design Fundamentals by Salen and Zimmerman: Conceptual study of games. Textbook / Reference.
I could dump more resources, but honestly, you'll stumble across everything that's worth knowing if you dig by yourself. This is good enough to get you started.
In the end though, game design is about being able to communicate ideas and recognising what works and what doesn't and why (or at the very least, being able to make a coherent, compelling argument for it). Go read Zileas' anti-patterns and understand them. Go argue with the LoL designers on the forums, they're extremely active and hopefully you'll engage in intelligent discussion with them, setting a precedent for you. Make yourself known and work on meeting as many points as you can in the bullet-list for the job position.
Oh, and you should probably grow fond of board games.
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Nerfing flash won't encourage aggressive play IMO.
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Riot needs to buff ghost more than they need to nerf flash. The problem with ghost is that you still get slowed and cc'd for ages. If they had just given it a mini-cleanse effect then it would suddenly be the most popular spell for a lot of champs.
As for CV, they could've just removed the mastery and it would've made it much better.
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EPT
