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Want to rage about your latest loss? Use the QQ thread. If you whine in GD, you'll get warned. - Neo, 9:49 KST, Nov 9th |
On November 05 2011 02:37 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 02:34 JackDino wrote:On November 05 2011 02:29 Two_DoWn wrote:
I remember when Ghost used to be the default escape spell simply because NOTHING could catch someone who used ghost, except for another ghost. That was WAAAAAYYYYYYYY more unfun than flash simply because ghost is completely 1 dimensional- you use it to run away, never run forward. Flash has offensive and defensive aspects, and it isnt as though flash is a complete get out of jail free card- there are plenty of cases where flash isnt enough to save someone.
IMO they should give ghost a buff like vayne's passive where you gain additional movespeed when moving in the direction of enemies to incentivise to using it offensively. Perhaps give it a 10% additional damage bonus too. And this would make ghost completely useless defense wise. Bad idea. It would still give bonus movespeed when running away as it does now. But as is, even if you rebuff ghost to where it was or close, it STILL only has defensive use. It needs to have offensive use as well IMO.
dunno what you're talking about, ghost is still the premiere chase skill in the game and the best in terms of long-term mobility (hence why you STILL take it on singed instead of flash, and you can't tell me that singed needs ghost to escape l0l)
its just that the utility of flash is simply too high in comparison to the movement benefit from ghost's current iteration
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On November 05 2011 02:36 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 02:18 overt wrote:On November 05 2011 02:14 JackDino wrote:
I didn't say they should remove flash, just saying that you can't really do anything against flash(esp flash over walls) unless you run flash yourself but you can always get rid of exhaust with qss.
Removing flash would be pretty huge gameplay wise.
Not always the best when wording things. Removing Flash causes some pretty huge problems where a lot of champs lose their viability in play. Removing Exhaust? That would probably make divers a bit better but more importantly it'd force people to actually react to divers better as your AD carry can no longer just Exhaust and run away or Exhaust and kill the person who dived them. Like, I think the game would be legitimately a lot better if they took Exhaust out or nerfed it into oblivion. I can't really say the same about Flash. Flash can be itemized o.O Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 02:35 Sabin010 wrote:
I am against removing/changing to an item flash. I can understand why its a little broken, most champions are running it and some champions only run it to chase all the squishies that run it, this is usually indicative of some kind of imbalance.
If it were made into an item what items would you suggest be bought to build into a flash item? You're going to see an asshole like Garen show up in the top lane with ignite and exhaust and you're going to be fucked because you're not going to be able to even melee a creep with out dying. If its too expensive you're going to be crippling champions like Galileo because he has to buy it in order to have good ults. Too cheap and you're basically just asking everybody to buy it which is problebly worse than everybody just using it in there summoners. If garen with exhaust/ignite could 1shot everyone I'd imagine we'd be seeing that always even now. And btw you counter that by exhausting him. It could just be a standalone item that costs like 1000 and gives nothing else. Maybe tenacity though.
yea, let's put flash and merc treads on one item. how about everyone just spawns with -525 gold and that item instead? it'll be the single most bought item in the entire game.
On November 05 2011 02:37 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 02:34 JackDino wrote:On November 05 2011 02:29 Two_DoWn wrote:
I remember when Ghost used to be the default escape spell simply because NOTHING could catch someone who used ghost, except for another ghost. That was WAAAAAYYYYYYYY more unfun than flash simply because ghost is completely 1 dimensional- you use it to run away, never run forward. Flash has offensive and defensive aspects, and it isnt as though flash is a complete get out of jail free card- there are plenty of cases where flash isnt enough to save someone.
IMO they should give ghost a buff like vayne's passive where you gain additional movespeed when moving in the direction of enemies to incentivise to using it offensively. Perhaps give it a 10% additional damage bonus too. And this would make ghost completely useless defense wise. Bad idea. It would still give bonus movespeed when running away as it does now. But as is, even if you rebuff ghost to where it was or close, it STILL only has defensive use. It needs to have offensive use as well IMO.
seriously dude, WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?
you might as well say that flash only has defensive uses because it's impossible to flash towards an opponent. your argument is: ghost is used to run away, never forward. ok, and ignite sucks because i only use it on creeps and smite's just better for damaging them because it does more damage, does it right away and has a shorter cd, herpderp, I can derp argue too.
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On November 05 2011 02:35 Sabin010 wrote:
I am against removing/changing to an item flash. I can understand why its a little broken, most champions are running it and some champions only run it to chase all the squishies that run it, this is usually indicative of some kind of imbalance.
If it were made into an item what items would you suggest be bought to build into a flash item? You're going to see an asshole like Garen show up in the top lane with ignite and exhaust and you're going to be fucked because you're not going to be able to even melee a creep with out dying. If its too expensive you're going to be crippling champions like Galileo because he has to buy it in order to have good ults. Too cheap and you're basically just asking everybody to buy it which is problebly worse than everybody just using it in there summoners.
It's not impossible to balance Galio and similar champions who rely heavily on Flash around the fact that they have to drop X amount of gold and one item slot on a flash item. It's not easy, but it's not like there's no recourse for balancing it.
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See, everyone keeps saying "no no I use ghost to chase it doesnt need to be more offensive" when I GUARANTEE that none of you has taken Ghost in a game in over 3 months on someone who wasnt Singed. It isnt that flash has more utility. Its that there is NO benefit to using ghost offensively because you get nowhere near the reward that you get for flash. Flash positions you right next to someone, eliminating kiting, making burst easier to land, and allows for much easier tower diving than flash. Defensively, ghost is outperformed by exaust. So in both offensive and defensive capabilities, ghost is overshadowed by other spells. The question is which do you want to buff, the offensive or defensive capabilities? My answer would be to buff offensively, because back when ghost was king, it FUCKING SUCKED TO PLAY AGAINST. If you flash away, you can still get picked up by another teammate or a long range attack. Ghost? You were fucking GONE unless someone else had ghost up. I REALLY dont want that to come back. Hence I think the better way to go it to buff the offensive capabilities of the spell while keeping the moderate defensive abilities it has.
@ Smash. Sure, it can be used offensively to catch up to people. Only, A) flash does it better, B) An offensive exhaust does it better. If offensive ghost is so great, why arent people using it instead of exaust or flash?
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If I get a philo stone and a lucky pick do I get 10gp10?
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On November 05 2011 02:54 Two_DoWn wrote:
See, everyone keeps saying "no no I use ghost to chase it doesnt need to be more offensive" when I GUARANTEE that none of you has taken Ghost in a game in over 3 months on someone who wasnt Singed. It isnt that flash has more utility. Its that there is NO benefit to using ghost offensively because you get nowhere near the reward that you get for flash. Flash positions you right next to someone, eliminating kiting, making burst easier to land, and allows for much easier tower diving than flash. Defensively, ghost is outperformed by exaust. So in both offensive and defensive capabilities, ghost is overshadowed by other spells. The question is which do you want to buff, the offensive or defensive capabilities? My answer would be to buff offensively, because back when ghost was king, it FUCKING SUCKED TO PLAY AGAINST. If you flash away, you can still get picked up by another teammate or a long range attack. Ghost? You were fucking GONE unless someone else had ghost up. I REALLY dont want that to come back. Hence I think the better way to go it to buff the offensive capabilities of the spell while keeping the moderate defensive abilities it has.
Man, have you even read your own post rofl? Tell me when you can ghost over walls and I'll never take flash again.
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Vancouver14381 Posts
On November 05 2011 02:56 sermokala wrote:
If I get a philo stone and a lucky pick do I get 10gp10?
You can still stack the gold/10 with different items.
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On November 05 2011 02:56 JackDino wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 02:54 Two_DoWn wrote:
See, everyone keeps saying "no no I use ghost to chase it doesnt need to be more offensive" when I GUARANTEE that none of you has taken Ghost in a game in over 3 months on someone who wasnt Singed. It isnt that flash has more utility. Its that there is NO benefit to using ghost offensively because you get nowhere near the reward that you get for flash. Flash positions you right next to someone, eliminating kiting, making burst easier to land, and allows for much easier tower diving than flash. Defensively, ghost is outperformed by exaust. So in both offensive and defensive capabilities, ghost is overshadowed by other spells. The question is which do you want to buff, the offensive or defensive capabilities? My answer would be to buff offensively, because back when ghost was king, it FUCKING SUCKED TO PLAY AGAINST. If you flash away, you can still get picked up by another teammate or a long range attack. Ghost? You were fucking GONE unless someone else had ghost up. I REALLY dont want that to come back. Hence I think the better way to go it to buff the offensive capabilities of the spell while keeping the moderate defensive abilities it has. Man, have you even read your own post rofl? Tell me when you can ghost over walls and I'll never take flash again.
Only back when ghost was good you werent catching anyone who ghosted unless you used ghost too. Its the same argument. They flash, you have to flash. They ghost, you had to ghost.
And are people SERIOUSLY trying to say that ghost is just as offensive as flash? When's the last time you saw an alistar or kennen GHOST to fucking initiate.
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3 sec cooldown on flash if you're damaged. Or even one second, it would be a lot different and really interesting game wise!
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On November 05 2011 02:59 nojok wrote:
3 sec cooldown on flash if you're damaged. Or even one second, it would be a lot different and really interesting game wise!
Id go the other way. Id make it so that you get a %damage buff immediately after using flash as well to reward offensive use. Flash is great as an offensive skill. It makes the game more dynamic, especially since one of the large complaints is that the game becomes to stale because initiation is so hard late game.
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On November 05 2011 02:54 Two_DoWn wrote:
See, everyone keeps saying "no no I use ghost to chase it doesnt need to be more offensive" when I GUARANTEE that none of you has taken Ghost in a game in over 3 months on someone who wasnt Singed. It isnt that flash has more utility. Its that there is NO benefit to using ghost offensively because you get nowhere near the reward that you get for flash. Flash positions you right next to someone, eliminating kiting, making burst easier to land, and allows for much easier tower diving than flash. Defensively, ghost is outperformed by exaust. So in both offensive and defensive capabilities, ghost is overshadowed by other spells. The question is which do you want to buff, the offensive or defensive capabilities? My answer would be to buff offensively, because back when ghost was king, it FUCKING SUCKED TO PLAY AGAINST. If you flash away, you can still get picked up by another teammate or a long range attack. Ghost? You were fucking GONE unless someone else had ghost up. I REALLY dont want that to come back. Hence I think the better way to go it to buff the offensive capabilities of the spell while keeping the moderate defensive abilities it has.
@ Smash. Sure, it can be used offensively to catch up to people. Only, A) flash does it better, B) An offensive exhaust does it better. If offensive ghost is so great, why arent people using it instead of exaust or flash?
Again, turning your argument on it's head makes you sound stupid:
@ T_D. Sure, it can be used defensively to run away from people. Only, A) flash does it better, B) A defensive exhaust does it better. If defensive ghost is so great, why aren't people using it instead of exhaust or flash?
it's because they nerfed it such that Flash and Exhaust are better at everything it does. Offensive and Defensive Ghost are bad right now. In other words... GHOST IS BAD RIGHT NOW AND IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT BEING BETTER AT OFFENSE OR DEFENSE.
and I'll take nigga please for 500 Alex, I've run ghost on Olaf and Nasus and Xin in the last 3 months, wanna know why? SO THAT I CAN KEEP HITTING FUCKERS WITH MY AUTO ATTACKS FOR LONGER THAN EXHAUST's 3 SECONDS OR FLASH'S 1 FREE ATTACK. Stop stop stop stop stop with the bullshit authority position you're taking on knowing how ghost works because frankly, you're making yourself sound like a goddamn retard and it's embarrassing for everyone involved.
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I remember when the change to ghost happened, elementz made as habitual a patch review and said that it wasnt a big difference 14 sec to 10 and the movespeed reduce and i feel exactly the same, like previously, if u have ghost u can chase someone ,doesnt matter if its 14 or 10 because in 99% of case if u cant catch somebody with 10 seconds of a movespeed bonus you wont catch him anyway.
I take ghost on amumu because its better to get inside the teamfight (or to position yourself better to land a bandage toss) than flash
But im more weaker in the jungle as a result
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On November 05 2011 02:54 Two_DoWn wrote:
See, everyone keeps saying "no no I use ghost to chase it doesnt need to be more offensive" when I GUARANTEE that none of you has taken Ghost in a game in over 3 months on someone who wasnt Singed. It isnt that flash has more utility. Its that there is NO benefit to using ghost offensively because you get nowhere near the reward that you get for flash. Flash positions you right next to someone, eliminating kiting, making burst easier to land, and allows for much easier tower diving than flash. Defensively, ghost is outperformed by exaust. So in both offensive and defensive capabilities, ghost is overshadowed by other spells. The question is which do you want to buff, the offensive or defensive capabilities? My answer would be to buff offensively, because back when ghost was king, it FUCKING SUCKED TO PLAY AGAINST. If you flash away, you can still get picked up by another teammate or a long range attack. Ghost? You were fucking GONE unless someone else had ghost up. I REALLY dont want that to come back. Hence I think the better way to go it to buff the offensive capabilities of the spell while keeping the moderate defensive abilities it has.
@ Smash. Sure, it can be used offensively to catch up to people. Only, A) flash does it better, B) An offensive exhaust does it better. If offensive ghost is so great, why arent people using it instead of exaust or flash?
Olaf. huehuehue
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On November 05 2011 02:54 Two_DoWn wrote:
See, everyone keeps saying "no no I use ghost to chase it doesnt need to be more offensive" when I GUARANTEE that none of you has taken Ghost in a game in over 3 months on someone who wasnt Singed. It isnt that flash has more utility. Its that there is NO benefit to using ghost offensively because you get nowhere near the reward that you get for flash. Flash positions you right next to someone, eliminating kiting, making burst easier to land, and allows for much easier tower diving than flash. Defensively, ghost is outperformed by exaust. So in both offensive and defensive capabilities, ghost is overshadowed by other spells. The question is which do you want to buff, the offensive or defensive capabilities? My answer would be to buff offensively, because back when ghost was king, it FUCKING SUCKED TO PLAY AGAINST. If you flash away, you can still get picked up by another teammate or a long range attack. Ghost? You were fucking GONE unless someone else had ghost up. I REALLY dont want that to come back. Hence I think the better way to go it to buff the offensive capabilities of the spell while keeping the moderate defensive abilities it has.
@ Smash. Sure, it can be used offensively to catch up to people. Only, A) flash does it better, B) An offensive exhaust does it better. If offensive ghost is so great, why arent people using it instead of exaust or flash?
i think you're missing the point. back when it was 14sec and more ms, there was actually a tossup between ghost and flash if you wanted another non-mobility summoner for many champions. The idea was that flash (being instant) was a fantastic initiation device OR immediate, short-term escape device (for ppl who needed to buy that 1-2 secs extra time to unload dmg). Ghost was taken on the ppl who wanted long-term mobility which tended to be bruisers or kiters. That pretty effectively split the champions who want to take either ghost or flash, and the efficacy of the summoner depended on what style of champion or you could even go as far as to say it depended on what playstyle you wished to accomplish even with the same champion.
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trynda, too. i'd say half of people play him ghost ignite, tho flash is common too
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On November 05 2011 02:36 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 02:18 overt wrote:On November 05 2011 02:14 JackDino wrote:
I didn't say they should remove flash, just saying that you can't really do anything against flash(esp flash over walls) unless you run flash yourself but you can always get rid of exhaust with qss.
Removing flash would be pretty huge gameplay wise.
Not always the best when wording things. Removing Flash causes some pretty huge problems where a lot of champs lose their viability in play. Removing Exhaust? That would probably make divers a bit better but more importantly it'd force people to actually react to divers better as your AD carry can no longer just Exhaust and run away or Exhaust and kill the person who dived them. Like, I think the game would be legitimately a lot better if they took Exhaust out or nerfed it into oblivion. I can't really say the same about Flash. Flash can be itemized o.O Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 02:35 Sabin010 wrote:
I am against removing/changing to an item flash. I can understand why its a little broken, most champions are running it and some champions only run it to chase all the squishies that run it, this is usually indicative of some kind of imbalance.
If it were made into an item what items would you suggest be bought to build into a flash item? You're going to see an asshole like Garen show up in the top lane with ignite and exhaust and you're going to be fucked because you're not going to be able to even melee a creep with out dying. If its too expensive you're going to be crippling champions like Galileo because he has to buy it in order to have good ults. Too cheap and you're basically just asking everybody to buy it which is problebly worse than everybody just using it in there summoners. If garen with exhaust/ignite could 1shot everyone I'd imagine we'd be seeing that always even now. And btw you counter that by exhausting him. It could just be a standalone item that costs like 1000 and gives nothing else. Maybe tenacity though.
Firstly, I hate the whole "The counter to Exhaust(/Flash) is Exhaust(/Flash)". There's a reason champions who don't need Flash take it anyway: to chase people with flash. There's a reason a lot of people take Exhaust in some matchups: to counter Exhaust. If that's the way it is, just give it to everyone baseline and make the choosable summoners more useful. It's not fun when your "choices" are set in stone because you need them since everyone else is taking them.
A Flash item might be better, but I think it would be best to take it out altogether. No diving and then Flashing out of turret range to get a free kill, no Flash away and survive a 3 man gank because you were dumb enough to be out of position, no free gap closer for champions balanced around not having a gap closer.
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Fine, I'll shut up. My point was merely that back before the ghost nerfs, it really sucked to play against because it was too good at running away. Then they nerfed it, then buffed exhaust. So now both flash and exhaust are better offensively and defensively, something we agree on.
I just dont want ghost to be buffed back to that same level where you had to ghost to catch someone who popped their ghost, and its my general belief that escape summoners should have little incentives to reward using those spells in an offensive manner. I WANT people to run ghost on singed, olaf, and nasus to keep hitting fuckers as they run. Hell, I want people to have to chose between flash and ghost on ranged carries. I have no problem with ghost gaining a vayne like movement buff because it rewards the offensive use of ghost over the defensive use. Whoever loses the fight and tries to run away SHOULD get caught if someone on the other team is willing to burn their ghost to catch them. Thats the only point I'm trying to make.
I guess its my fault for saying that ghost has no offensive use instead of something like ghost doesnt prioritize offensive use as much as flash does because flash initiation is still the best way to initiate in the game. I am aware ghost can be used offensively. I just dont think that atm, even if you buffed it back to where it was, the offensive use would be nearly as good as flash for the vast majority of characters, and instead you would just make the defensive aspects equal to that of exhaust, hence my thought that you should gain movespeed for moving at people. But I could be wrong.
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This might be wrong, but I think one of the reasons Ghost also isn't teh hotness anymore compared to Flash is because you can "replace" it. Think how many MS items/runes there are. With a PD or FoN and Boots, you're already clocking in at a good pace. Add MS quints to that and you're sprinting, especially if you have a MS ability. Ghost is faster than the MS you can get, but you can get a weaker version of it. There is no such supplement for Flash, other than a few abilities. If they took all MS off every item (yes, including boots), I think Ghost might be seen a bit more.
But that's a bad idea as is, just musing.
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On November 05 2011 01:48 Slaughter wrote:
Here is a build that I stole partially from one on solomid for Shyvana. Its basically an AoE build with Sunfire/Timaint/wits end/triforce. He had ghostblade thrown in there but I think I would prefer BC or a BT. I tried it one game and did pretty well even though im still learning her though. I just wonder how good the triforce is for her, or maybe a survival item would be better? Triforce is just so damn expensive.
I usually end up getting tank like stats on her like 4-5-10 or something. Could be because I am just a sub par player but I also am just playing normals with her hehe.
Triforce is awful on Shyvana. The AP does next to nothing (your AoE isn't actually increased all that much by AP), the mana does nothing, the proc only hits the primary target in dragon form, and W is a crazy movespeed buff already so long as you actually auto something. As a result the only truly useful parts are the slow, AD, and health, which you could get just as much/more of from Frozen Mallet.
Tiamat is gimmicky. It makes Dragon Q do a ton of damage to clustered opponents but Dragon Q AoE is finicky and small (for example depending on whether you stand at corner of wraith camp or along the side your Q hits 1 wraith or 3 wraiths). Either you need a lot of coordination with a friendly Orianna or your opponents have to be a bunch of melee bruisers focusing one target who love fighting in the jungle more than anywhere else.
Shyv *is* a champ with a lot of AoE, but she's not the "Imma build items to boost my AoE skillz and kill all y'all" type, she's the "I wish sunfire capes still stacked because I have to stand in everyone to do damage" amumu type.
Yango (answering a question from pages back): Dunno if you figured this out already but Q's passive benefits from the second hit. So the real CD is 0.5 seconds less than whatever it states. With max Q and 40% CDR you effectively give yourself about 1.5 attacks per second even if your normal AS is less than 1.0 by just mashing Q whenever its up. At about 1.1 it gets awkward and you have to delay your Q to after your second auto attack again.
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Only reason flash is good is because you can blink walls. Ghost is 100% better in all other aspects, except for surviving ganks mid lane.
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EPT
