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Want to rage about your latest loss? Use the QQ thread. If you whine in GD, you'll get warned. - Neo, 9:49 KST, Nov 9th |
On November 02 2011 06:49 shinarit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 06:39 STS17 wrote:
This is a fundamentally flawed outlook on "how you should be able to win." Unfortunately, many of the "top tier" competitive eSports games have defined pro players as those who can abuse flaws in the game engine or bugs in certain mechanics (muta-stacking and wavedashing for example) so this has sort of become what is expected for games to be competetive and this is just such a poor way to judge how good someone is at what is supposed to be a Strategy game (RTS, MOBAs and Fighting games are all games about strategy in one form or another).
In a MOBA for example, the game shouldn't be won because of some arbitrary mechanical requirement (animation cancelling, denying, etc) but how your teamwork, positioning, timing, map awareness, map control, and other "game-sense" related skills stand up to your opponents. This form of strategy goes far beyond in-game moments, and extends even to champion and summoner spell selection, the ability to lane-switch, and many other aspects of the game, where as pure technical skill hardly reaches past the mouse and keyboard.
Of course, I am not trying to imply that a game should "do everything" for the players or that there should be no way for players to demonstrate their mechanical prowess, merely that a strategy-based game should be more about a player's (or team's) strategical ability, not their mastery of keyboard and mouse. I agree with this, with the addition: i DO think the game should do everything for the player which the player would obviously do himself. So where theres no decision making involved, automatize. More focus on strategy the better. Thats my problem with the SC games too, so many mechanics im not even sure i would call them strategy games, strategy should be about the bigger picture.
Part of the problem with that outlook is that it removes some the RTS element, don't you think? Part of being good at BW was deciding how to allocate your time. I'm not exactly opposed to what you're saying, I enjoy the strategy of LoL not the last-hitting mechanic, but part of the package with RTS is being able to do more than your opponent in real-time.
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It doesn't matter who's right or wrong, it's all about entertainment.
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On November 02 2011 06:51 JackDino wrote:
Oh man, regi argueing YOU HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH LEAGUE OF LEGENDS is so much fun.
The sad thing is that it was true this guy has no idea what he is talking about. He does understand that 6 games of LoL take most of the day and that really isn't possible much. Not to mention if it was a normal BO3 9 games is almost 9 hours of gameplay. I can't imagine someone doing that.
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o.o Odee is making the hurting ESPORTS argument lawl
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United States9006 Posts
On November 02 2011 06:51 JackDino wrote:
Oh man, regi argueing YOU HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH LEAGUE OF LEGENDS is so much fun.
He sounded like an ass but honestly Odee tried to take on this role of, "I know better than you because I've been in eSports for 12 years and if LoL wants to be an eSport it needs to do double elimination sets of bo3!"
Aside from him just trying to sound like he's better because he's been around longer it screams how inexperienced he is. Imagine a full series of three bo3s. That could be close to nine hours to play. If it was a one set advantage it could take six hours to play.
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Odee should turn that annoying sound off it's rude and annoying lol. It's like having your cellphone on in a meeting.
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ugh regi needs to make the point that the reason is is SUPPOSED to be a single GAME advantage instead of a bo3 is the fact that it was supposed to be a LIVE event with that rules instead of the double bo3 because they canceled the live and made it online
regi is stupid to attack odee's experience tho man this is cringeworthy
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LOL traditional ESPORTS person? What is that supposed to mean?
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Why on earth is this discussion being played on the person. Its no about regi or odee knowing how it should be.
Its about WCG changing the rules after the finals were already finished...
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Regi has mentioned the rules were changed after the tourney but no one cares.
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On November 02 2011 06:58 JackDino wrote:
Regi has mentioned the rules were changed after the tourney but no one cares.
And yet that should be the main argument in this entire drama
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12year of esports:"it's quite vague". It's not vague at all it's pretty clear.
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8751 Posts
this is silly as fuck. i side with CDE. wcg fucked up (as usual) and people got screwed. dignitas should be extremely apologetic and sympathetic and mad at WCG rather than hiding behind WCG's decision. when players agree to something they have to stick to it, the end! also, this whole esports argument is impotent. who cares what other games do. real sports dont give a shit. even the olympics (closest thing to WCG) lets each sport do its own thing. LoL should be consistent
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On November 02 2011 06:52 mordek wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 06:49 shinarit wrote:On November 02 2011 06:39 STS17 wrote:
This is a fundamentally flawed outlook on "how you should be able to win." Unfortunately, many of the "top tier" competitive eSports games have defined pro players as those who can abuse flaws in the game engine or bugs in certain mechanics (muta-stacking and wavedashing for example) so this has sort of become what is expected for games to be competetive and this is just such a poor way to judge how good someone is at what is supposed to be a Strategy game (RTS, MOBAs and Fighting games are all games about strategy in one form or another).
In a MOBA for example, the game shouldn't be won because of some arbitrary mechanical requirement (animation cancelling, denying, etc) but how your teamwork, positioning, timing, map awareness, map control, and other "game-sense" related skills stand up to your opponents. This form of strategy goes far beyond in-game moments, and extends even to champion and summoner spell selection, the ability to lane-switch, and many other aspects of the game, where as pure technical skill hardly reaches past the mouse and keyboard.
Of course, I am not trying to imply that a game should "do everything" for the players or that there should be no way for players to demonstrate their mechanical prowess, merely that a strategy-based game should be more about a player's (or team's) strategical ability, not their mastery of keyboard and mouse. I agree with this, with the addition: i DO think the game should do everything for the player which the player would obviously do himself. So where theres no decision making involved, automatize. More focus on strategy the better. Thats my problem with the SC games too, so many mechanics im not even sure i would call them strategy games, strategy should be about the bigger picture. Part of the problem with that outlook is that it removes some the RTS element, don't you think? Part of being good at BW was deciding how to allocate your time. I'm not exactly opposed to what you're saying, I enjoy the strategy of LoL not the last-hitting mechanic, but part of the package with RTS is being able to do more than your opponent in real-time.
Well, what i say is remove only those things that doesnt need decision. There are still plenty of stuff which could be done you just need a bigger scale. Look at a game like SupCom, couple of hundreds of units and buildings, and ofc you dont micro each separately, but thats the point. Less mechanics, bigger picture. I dont say one is better or worse, just if you want to call something a strategy game, it should be about a big picture with many battles.
Moba games is another matter, moba is really a better name for them than (a)rts, they are really not about strategy if you only control 5 unit per side... i think in these games we have quite a few mechanical demands, with a little practice, everyone can be good at them, and i think its good.
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What the hell is Slasher doing? Slasher has to know that Odee is trying to talk his way out of the WCG screwup. It was my understanding that Slasher didn't pull punches. I'd love to see him put his foot down on this I am curious on his thoughts.
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Ouch Reginald dropping the bomb...
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fuck man someone shoot me this is stupid as fuck, we get it that it isnt dignitas's fault why is this even set up to be odee (dignitas) vs reginald (CDE), this is retarded
and to people who have no experience in the scene probably are fucking laughing at reginald, he is making himself look like a complete prick haha
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United States9006 Posts
"Are you going to support USA?"
"No."
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Its sad to see this... Odee has experiance and is facing off against a young guy in personal attack after personal attack (from both sides)
If 2 professionals from both sides talk about this it would be a totaly different scene.
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It has nothing to do with experience it's all about refusing to answer questions and going around them, doesn't matter how old you are.
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EPT
