[Patch 1.0.0.125: Riven] General Discussion - Page 143

On September 27 2011 09:01 MoonBear wrote:
MoonBear goes off on a tangent about jungling and why Wriggles will consistently pose a problem for a while...
Jungling in itself is an issue for champions. Any champion can turn up to lane and last hit, some just better than others. However, even with full runes and masteries, many champions forcefully gimp themselves if they try to jungle. Even for champions that can pull it off, even slight counter-jungling can permanently set them back for the rest of the game. In order to successfully jungle, a champion must be able to sustain themselves or be relatively tanky, and be able to clear camps in good time which implies decent dps. Ignoring the aspect of map control and pressure, few champions are arguably more suitable in the jungle than in lane (Amumu and Olaf being some examples). In fact, it is the nature that being able to jungle consistently must make a champion viable or borderline OP, if not even OP due to the requirements they have to meet. (See: pre-nerf Lanewick, Lee Sin, Lanedyr post-mana buff, etc.)

In order to diversify the pool of junglers, Riot has tried to make champions that can jungle but if these champions meet the criteria above, they immediately edge towards borderline OP. Any champion that works great in the jungle (with exceptions such as Olaf) will generally also have an advantage in lane thanks to their in-built damage, tankyness or sustain. Pirate, Chogath and Udyr are prime cases where they work well in the jungle or top lane. Pirate is a horrible case, since he can also be run as support. So we need a way to not make OP champions that can jungle. Enter Madreds and Wriggles.

In order to still allow champions to quickly and safely clear the jungle, Madred and Wriggles are often used as a crutch for many of the lesser junglers. For these junglers, without Madreds/Wriggles they risk falling behind during the mid-ish game stage when they want to clear camps quickly to stronger champion who may not even need Wriggles to clear camps or sustain themselves. (See: Chogath, Phoenixdyr, WW, Yi etc.)

However, we now face the second problem, which is that a jungler's gold is much more limited compared to someone in lane, especially if they do not have strong gank opportunities. They also need to be able to exert pressure, counter-act the pressure of the other jungler and have some responsibility to ward. This means that any items specifically for jungling have to be very cost-effective and easy to obtain.

If we look at Wriggles, it's a ridiculously cost effective item, even more so pre-nerf when everyone and their pet Teemo ran it. It gives good stats that lots of people wouldn't mind having, and as a bonus even gives free wards. Looking at just the lifesteal part, you get a bonus +6% when you combine it for 150g. That's basically half an extra vamp sceptere. A vamp scep costs 450g. So you've already benefited, and that's ignoring the extra armour, damage, wards and 5% increase to proc chance. The extra pressure on Dragon and Baron thanks to the threat of Madred procs doesn't hurt either.

The problem is, that nearly all champions (laners or junglers) look for ways to maximise their power with the limited gold they have. Wriggles, being the incredibly cost-effective item it is, ends up being just as attractive to champions who can use it in lane as it is to a jungler. It provides an efficient form of sustain, decent stats, lets you push hard and pays for itself slowly thanks to free wards. The Wriggles phenomenon at bottom lane just feels right. It helps you stay in lane against other AD carries if you're having a hard time, and free wards means you can feel safer from ganks when pushing or helps you win brush control thanks to that extra 1 ward you can pump in which relieves stress on your support. It works great top lane too (See: Lanedyr and co.).

Here's the problem. How do you deal with the effectiveness of Wriggles? If you nerf it through cost, it feels bad as a jungler who will generally be very limited in gold. If you nerf the stats or sustain, the non-top-tier junglers become even less attractive compared to the top ones and the pool of viable junglers shrinks even more. If you nerf the proc to only target neutral minions, it's still a great sustain tool that pays for itself and helps pressure Dragon/Baron. If you nerf the ward aspect (longer CD, or shorter life ward) that still does nothing about the sustain, and it'll still pay for itself, just slower.

In short then, until Guinsoo's jungle changes, Wriggles will always feel like it's in a bad place because either it's ridiculously cost-effective and lots of people like it for sustain and stats, or the pool of junglers shrinks as the crutch some rely on feels less useful. The jungle changes will also mean it becomes easier to rebalance champions without making them feel bad in the jungle... but that's for another time.

MoonBear now goes off on a tangent on Assassins...
Assassins by design are designed to shut down other champions hard and fast, especially against squishies. This means they're designed to want to snowball in lane, and snowball hard. One problem though is that once they snowball hard enough, they pose a threat to everything. But if they can't snowball, they can't assassinate champions. So a balance needs to be struck. Generally, this will err to the side of being more powerful since they don't always snowball in lane and still need to be effective. It also makes them a bit harder to balance since either they do their job and gimp someone fast, or they don't and die. This is Katarina syndrome. In fact, any mechanic where you gain something based on kills/assists is inherently nasty to balance since it suggests really hard snowballing and you need to balance around the threat of suddenly snowballing on everyone.

Talon in particular is probably borderline OP if not OP since he scales so hard, has a blink move, has CC and hurt you more when you're under the effect of CC. His base stats aren't even too far off compared to champions like Alistar, and he gains free MRes per level too. His ult is ridiculous, with a 0.9 AD ratio per blade on an Irelia-style cooldown and higher base damage. (Of course, he lacks the tankyness but stealth helps a bit. I believe it can only hit you twice during the ult, so that's potentially 1.8 AD scaling and AoE to boot.) I wouldn't be surprised it his damage was toned down a bit. Riven is also pretty good. I personally think she has Irelia syndrome where she's being overlooked but this is more my unqualified opinion more than anything else...