|
When you autoattack you pull creep aggro to you and not your creep, so you push the lane. It's fairly simple.
And for people saying it's easy to lane, I agree, but then again I disagree. Even in the 2000s (in fact, even at DH) you see games won or lost by people whom are blatantly superior laners. At top-level competitive 5ranked play you'll see teams account for lanes that are lost or weaker, but in solo q and such that's simply not the case. A lot of top-end Koreans always remarked that games were decided in 15 minutes due to laning phase. Yes, if you mass-game against players like Jiji over and over again 1v1 you'll get better. Will you get good enough to actually dominate games? No idea, but then again no one who legitimately wants to get better ever (to my knowledge) took up for instance Numbers' challenge to 1v1 him 100 straight times. Talk the walk and don't walk the walk.
The reality is that most of the better players here will stomp the lesser players here 1v1. They'll just do it in different ways. IIRC Brees like farming. Turkey does too. I like ruining peoples' days. Smash likes killing people, to the point where he'll randomly lose games because of overaggression (lol). It's easy to say that you can just play defensive but there's a SIZABLE disadvantage that you're ending up in that you usually don't even realize. There was that replay of a Brand player I commented on last month where he felt he was winning the lane but I wholeheartedly disagreed. And it wasn't just about his own CS.
I agree with Brees in that it's a much more "simple" game when laning than people might make it out to be, but I disagree with Brees in that I find most people are retarded and terrible. Otherwise you wouldn't see such massive disparities all the way through the ladder.
|
On September 27 2011 03:29 zulu_nation8 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2011 03:16 Mogwai wrote:On September 27 2011 03:01 Brees wrote:
the last time i laned against jiji in a tournament game it was top lane, and we had exactly the same farm (within 5 cs) didnt lose the lane until kobe(warwick) came and ulted me under the tower. junglers are the only reason you should ever have a problem in lane really last time I laned vs. voyboy in tournament, I destroyed him and Colbycheeze and Grackis spent the entire cast talking about how it must be because Jarman is OP and it must be a bad matchup for Akali when it was really just because Shake fucked with him early and often and it snowballed. On September 27 2011 03:11 zulu_nation8 wrote:On September 27 2011 03:03 Southlight wrote:On September 27 2011 03:02 zulu_nation8 wrote:
so when you lane vs someone 1k elo below you is your first instinct to zone and kill him asap or sit back and outlasthit him by as much as possible. Depends on hero, player, etc. I have a tendency to play safe, interspersed with insanity moments, so I'll sit there and rack up this ridiculous farm advantage... and then start pissing it away by rofltowerdiving and shit. lol. Because I don't really otherwise see a need in risking my own life to try to rack up a marginal advantage (kill) if I can safely farm. matchups with no overwhelming advantage for either side, since we're talking about AP, morg vs annie. You wouldn't try to auto the other guy at lv1 when he goes to up last hit? Autoing the other guy at lv 1 is different from trying to kill them. It's part of getting a generic lead that you can either try to expand by just last hitting while they play safe or you can balls out and try to kill them. I'm smash, so I try to kill people, but most people will actually just be happy zoning them and getting extra CS. With some champions like brand you can get kills with spells + auto pretty often at or pre level 3. I understand you can't kill people by autoing most of the time. But it's especially important in AP matchups when everyone has ignite. I just don't believe people would not try to zone and go for kill as early and as aggressively as possible vs someone they know is worse.
yeah
when i play panth i can tell from the first cs attempt by the other guy if he knows how to play against panth or not. if he doesn't then i kill him repeatedly until i have a sizeable lead, then i keep killing him some more
if i'm that much better than them i shouldn't be letting them farm at all
|
Obviously if your opponent is a complete idiot you would kill him... but we're arguing something along the lines of jiji vs TLers (who we're assuming not to be complete idiots).
|
On September 27 2011 03:38 ArC_man wrote:
Obviously if your opponent is a complete idiot you would kill him... but we're arguing something along the lines of jiji vs TLers (who we're assuming not to be complete idiots).
You say that, but you obviously have never played with shake's tf.
|
England2654 Posts
On September 27 2011 03:02 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2011 02:52 arnath wrote:
Haha, the things you hear on stream.
Hotshot: "Where is Arizona? I don't even know ..." It's not uncommon for foreigners to not know the geography of some of our lesser known states. Calling him out on that is a bit harsh. I'm sure he knows American geography better than the average American knows Canadian geography
This will be someone assuming Hotshot is American.
Lolol.
|
Heh yeah I just forgot he was Canadian.
|
Speaking from experience, playing against people significantly higher elo than you, you will lose.
I was like 1550 elo in season 1 and I got matched up against bly and 5hit's premade ranked 5's group. I laned mid against bly and even tho I was even in cs and exp and never died for the vast majority of laning phase, I still ended up losing that lane horribly. The reason is because even if you don't fall behind in cs and exp purely on laning, you simply just don't have the experience that tells you wtf you should do.
For example, he was annie and after he hit like 6, he insta-cleared his wave and forced me back with Q+W combo. While I went back, he went to my team's bot lane, dived them and got a double kill. He's a much better player than me so he knows wtf to do; when to try to force me back (which is possible cause he has better mechanics) and what to do with these small advantages. Even though I wasn't behind in cs or exp, I had no fcking clue what to do with it half the time. I'd just clear wave and sit there or leave lane and attempt to gank sidelanes but at bad times etc etc. There's just so much more to winning your lane than just hitting creep and getting exp. I've also played ranked 5s against a premade group of 2k elo people (yay for accelerated elo matching us up to 2k elo premades rofl). Holy hell, the mechanical difference is just fucking huge. Say you can hit 5/6 creeps every wave and the other guy hits 6/6. May not seem big at first, but after like 12-15 minutes, that ends up being a 30+ creep advantage, which those players know how to utilize to just fucking rape you in lane (get more pots so they can win trades, get extra dblade/dring to burst u harder, etc...).
That said, T_D's original point is still really valid tho. Jungling is so much harder than laning. Failing as jungler or getting raped by the other jungler in terms of counter-jungling and ganking, simply just snowballs so much fucking harder than getting raped in lane. Yea, laners can carry harder, but junglers can set up the laners to carry. The reason I think this is the case is because if you're failing your lane you can call for lane switch or ganks. You have a safety net. If you fail as jungler, you're fucked and there's no one who can save you and get you back in the game.
|
Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
On September 27 2011 02:11 Ruken wrote:
Moonbear, do you know whats up with the Winged Hussar skin? I thought it came out today?
It should be available by now.
|
On September 27 2011 03:14 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2011 02:55 zulu_nation8 wrote:On September 27 2011 02:32 Two_DoWn wrote:
Thats exactly what I am saying. I could last a laning phase against jiji without dying and staying within 40 cs, in a normal game scenario (ie not 1v1 solo mid, I have jungle help, ect). On September 27 2011 02:32 Two_DoWn wrote:
I, or any other decent player have enough experience to know what the danger zones are for dying in most situations. Stopped reading here. What? You dont know that Annie at level 6 does a lot of damage with her ult? Or that malzahar does the same? Or that Anvia burst potential is much higher if she has you chilled? You give yourself too little credit. You know how the game works, I've seen you play. You know this shit. Now, do you or I know if Tibbers will kill us or just leave us at 100 health while we have enough burst to kill annie in the meantime? Maybe not. But THATS the sort of shit that jiji and regi know that makes them good.
i wouldnt say knowing abilities exact damage values is a tough skill to have if you play for money, id say it would be a glaring gap in knowledge if you didnt know the exact burst potential of common picks
|
Not sure if Uta's quote about how fucking gay jiji's TF is, is from our game vs CLG ages ago where I was saying pretty much exactly those things, or if he has also shared in that experience. Cool thing about that game was that as frustrating as him hitting every fucking wild card was, I was still doing just fine until Kobe hit 6 and flash WW ulted me, which snowballed everything out of control.
|
I've played vs a bunch of Jiji solos but never his TF, so that was referencing that one yes. His solos piss me off because he plays so safe and builds up CS. Guh. Fuck him and GJ.
|
On September 27 2011 02:52 Southlight wrote:
Jiji is a tough example because people don't realize how fucking suffocating he is; watching streams don't really tell you how hard it is to prevent Jiji from carrying, everything be damned. That's even with dedicated attempts to knock him off rhythm. That's one of the major things I respected from the top-end "Korean" carry players, like GJ and Jiji. They carry through thick and thin.
If you give someone like Reginald, who is a significantly more aggressive player who WILL kill you every time you mis-step, free farm, then you are asking for a 15 minute loss. By which I mean he will gank the living hell out of your team, make your life miserable, and give you a coup de grace very quickly. You can NOT give players like that free farm. In that case nothing else matters; mid lane just handed them the game within 15 minutes.
Jiji is just a slightly less flashy version. By all accounts giving him free farm from the onset spells game over. It'll just take longer and give you the illusion that you're in the game, but eventually he "kicks in" and "decides to end it," and that's that.
The main question for me always is...
How does this "Carrying through thick and thin" work? What the fuck are they doing exactly that makes them so consistent? (And ofc, how to emulate it on the next level.)
On the mechanical thing, I had about 3-4 games right after S2 start where I went full on retard mode for the first few minutes (type while alistar flashes onto me to feed FB, then facecheck him again at bot lane like a boss).
I still somehow won those lanes where the enemy AD was 2-0. Get a few more cs here and there, know when to trade and when not to and then there's some random mistake (e.g. Ali comboing my support) and the enemy AD just dies a horrible death.
Winning lanes as the "better" player imo is about making less mistakes and exploiting enemy mistakes harder.
My question to the 2k+ people on TL is:
What are those things you avoid and exploit that people below your level don't? - Simply because it has to be more subtle things than I'm exploiting/avoiding currently, or I'd be at your level. (;
Edit: For the numbers 1n1 challenge, I'll do it instantly if someone from EU offers something similar. (or someone from US who gets an EU smurf and doesn't give a fuck about minor shit like lag)
|
United States37500 Posts
jiji feasts on all the noob tears in this thread.
>_>
|
oh my god I am terrible at melee champs
AP so boring but if I wanna get some ELO Swain all day every day zzz
|
On September 27 2011 03:35 Southlight wrote:
When you autoattack you pull creep aggro to you and not your creep, so you push the lane. It's fairly simple.
And for people saying it's easy to lane, I agree, but then again I disagree. Even in the 2000s (in fact, even at DH) you see games won or lost by people whom are blatantly superior laners. At top-level competitive 5ranked play you'll see teams account for lanes that are lost or weaker, but in solo q and such that's simply not the case. A lot of top-end Koreans always remarked that games were decided in 15 minutes due to laning phase. Yes, if you mass-game against players like Jiji over and over again 1v1 you'll get better. Will you get good enough to actually dominate games? No idea, but then again no one who legitimately wants to get better ever (to my knowledge) took up for instance Numbers' challenge to 1v1 him 100 straight times. Talk the walk and don't walk the walk.
The reality is that most of the better players here will stomp the lesser players here 1v1. They'll just do it in different ways. IIRC Brees like farming. Turkey does too. I like ruining peoples' days. Smash likes killing people, to the point where he'll randomly lose games because of overaggression (lol). It's easy to say that you can just play defensive but there's a SIZABLE disadvantage that you're ending up in that you usually don't even realize. There was that replay of a Brand player I commented on last month where he felt he was winning the lane but I wholeheartedly disagreed. And it wasn't just about his own CS.
I agree with Brees in that it's a much more "simple" game when laning than people might make it out to be, but I disagree with Brees in that I find most people are retarded and terrible. Otherwise you wouldn't see such massive disparities all the way through the ladder.
Man I would be up for 1v1'ing someone over and over to try to improve, wasn't around when that happened :/.
|
@r.evo
I'm not 2k but at least up to 1.9k all I tended to do was try to make it so my teammates don't make blatant mistakes. lol.
As for the GJ style of play, the know their heroes and they have good map awareness and 1vX awareness (not just 1v1), so they maximize their farm while NEVER DYING. And because they pick heroes that are obnoxious to deal with without great coordination esp when farmed when Akali walks out with like 300 CS you're like AHHH AHHH AHHH WHY DIDN'T YOU STOP HIS FARM. And they do this consistently, so that they're extremely difficult to deal with.
Edit:
The other thing is consistency. If you play 10 games with the same hero, how often can you perform acts of god? 3? 4? How many games do you TRULY act like a pentakill threat? Once every 100? And this is despite playing a true carry hero? Meanwhile the GJs and such go out and play phenomenal games 9 times out of 10, are a pentakill threat on a consistent basis. That means no matter who they're against, no matter what hero they're against, they'll still churn out their farm, get their ball rolling, and start roflstomping people. Meanwhile most other people (myself included) complain about bad matchups, shift blame, etc. instead of just manning up and carrying. It's also deceptive to say "I had 3 good games out of 10" because matchmaking will invariably make it so that you'll have to struggle in a fair number of games. It's when you don't struggle in those "counterbalance" games that you're really playing "above your level." It's why the Shakes and Smashes generally stomp <1700 level play every single game when they're on a smurf, because there's no such thing as a bad game for them. They just crush people.
|
Winning lanes as the "better" player imo is about making less mistakes and exploiting enemy mistakes harder. This game is entirely about which team throws the game away rather than which team has won the game with the exception of L0cust's team. They play like it's dota and accordingly have far more active warding/counter warding and respond aggressively with the information surplus they have. They reinvest whatever lead they get from that to oracle/ward up further into your area and limit your farm excessively by chopping off your ability to switch between lanes and jungle safely. At this point its possible for them to just 4v1 anyone at a tower because they'll know precisely where reinforcements are (and more importantly, aren't), which means they get 3 free towers.
|
United States17233 Posts
On September 27 2011 03:35 Southlight wrote:
No idea, but then again no one who legitimately wants to get better ever (to my knowledge) took up or instance Numbers' challenge to 1v1 him 100 straight times. Talk the walk and don't walk the walk.
'cause it was a colossal waste of time. You don't play this game in a vacuum, ignoring the presence of ganks. You'll just fuck yourself later when you think you can do one thing and then get ganked repeatedly for it.
|
i'm quickly perusing through this thread and jiji's been mentioned in the past seven or so pages. that dude should just post here so seven would turn to seventy ez.
|
On September 27 2011 04:59 r.Evo wrote:My question to the 2k+ people on TL is:
What are those things you avoid and exploit that people below your level don't? - Simply because it has to be more subtle things than I'm exploiting/avoiding currently, or I'd be at your level. (;
I know it's quite obvious and has been said 10000000 times, but timing dragon/baron and taking all of them as the jungler is my go-to method of carrying accounts that are significantly lower than where I should be. I also routinely take dragon at 7-9 minutes into the game while when I play with my 1500ish level friends in the jungle, they don't think to force dragon until they have a hugely obvious advantage after a successful gank mid/bot well past 10 minutes into the game. Getting this free 190 gold that early for my whole team routinely gives my team a big advantage.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
