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On September 27 2011 00:06 zulu_nation8 wrote:
Afterward you will get zoned out of exp range and at lv3 when you've finally had enough and decide to lasthit a ranged creep with barely any health jiji lands another skillshot, autos you while orb walking and kill you again.
What do you call orb walking? I probably know it already but not under this name (or a name at all).
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If, in saying that he can lane versus Jiji and not get dominated, Two_DoWn means that he can not feed any kills and keep within 40 cs of Jiji for 20 minutes, I call bullshit. If he's simply saying that he won't die to Jiji fullstop, then that's not saying anything at all without naming the limits to what you can do since even I can just afk at the fountain for 20 minutes myself. If the conditions are reasonable, such as not feeding any kills or losing any turrets or be losing by 40+ cs for 20 minutes, then he needs to get out of his lalaland IMO.
There's actually nothing to discuss without first naming the boundaries.
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On September 27 2011 01:29 Requizen wrote:
I couldn't really see Ashe, just build thornmail and she'll probably end up killing herself before you, especially if the tank has any sort of sustain available. I always forget about Vayne, though, she'd be good.
Irelia is just OP in Dom ;P Malz would be good, but supressing under a tower is a good way to get yourself eaten by anyone coming to help.
You'd just build some life leech and take no damage, standard "counter" to Thornmail on ranged DPS is Bloodthirster.
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On September 27 2011 02:16 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2011 00:06 zulu_nation8 wrote:
Afterward you will get zoned out of exp range and at lv3 when you've finally had enough and decide to lasthit a ranged creep with barely any health jiji lands another skillshot, autos you while orb walking and kill you again. What do you call orb walking? I probably know it already but not under this name (or a name at all).
like just animation canceling, kiting, etc
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I played some ranked last night and was getting 12 per win...did anyone else not get accelerated ELO? Is this a bug?
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On September 27 2011 02:19 tyCe wrote:
If, in saying that he can lane versus Jiji and not get dominated, Two_DoWn means that he can not feed any kills and keep within 40 cs of Jiji for 20 minutes, I call bullshit. If he's simply saying that he won't die to Jiji fullstop, then that's not saying anything at all without naming the limits to what you can do since even I can just afk at the fountain for 20 minutes myself. If the conditions are reasonable, such as not feeding any kills or losing any turrets or be losing by 40+ cs for 20 minutes, then he needs to get out of his lalaland IMO.
There's actually nothing to discuss without first naming the boundaries.
Thats exactly what I am saying. I could last a laning phase against jiji without dying and staying within 40 cs, in a normal game scenario (ie not 1v1 solo mid, I have jungle help, ect).
Again- you do not "kill" someone in lol half as much as you help them kill themselves. I, or any other decent player have enough experience to know what the danger zones are for dying in most situations. The difference is my area of danger is bigger than jiji's or regis would be because where they can calculate in their heads the exact amount of damage they will take in a trade and either go or not go based on that information, my calculations have more variance. Sometimes I overestimate, sometimes I underestimate. This means that when I play aggressive, there is always the chance I underestimated my damage and overestimated my opponents. However, if I want to play safe, I can always go with the lower range for my damage and the higher range estimate for my opponents, and act accordingly. The better you are, the fewer "omg how did I die" moments you have, simply because you get better at estimating damage. Top players are much better than the rest of us at this, hence their ability to play seemingly risky, but actually be entirely safe. In order to not die vs jiji, it just becomes a simple matter of making sure your damage calculations leave you alive.
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what you don't understand, two_down, is "not dying" isn't enough against a good player
if he has 50 more cs than you he's got a huge item advantage on you, he's got the ability to leave lane and you cannot follow in case he's setting up a trap for you, you can't leave the lane cause he can follow you away from tower to kill you... it just snowballs. he's effective in teamfights, you aren't. who cares if you're 0-0-0 to jiji if you're 3 levels behind him and 50cs behind him? that's as good as giving him 10 kills because a good player can dominate with a small advantage just as much as he can with a large advantage
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bly you are totally missing his point, he is saying that yes he would get destroyed in lane (it's fucking jiji), but not nearly as badly as oddone would rape him in jungle, because jungling is just that much more risky. I am inclined to agree. If a laner is being outplayed that badly he can sit at his tower and end up two levels and a lot of cs behind, if a jungler is being outplayed that badly he has no method of playing passively. He'll probably end up five levels behind and with practically no cs, and their jungler will be outleveling and outfarming the solos.
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On September 27 2011 02:38 UniversalSnip wrote:
bly you are totally missing his point, he is saying that yes he would get destroyed in lane (it's fucking jiji), but not nearly as badly as oddone would rape him in jungle, because jungling is just that much more risky. I am inclined to agree. If a laner is being outplayed that badly he can sit at his tower and end up two levels and a lot of cs behind, if a jungler is being outplayed that badly he has no method of playing passively. He'll probably end up five levels behind and with practically no cs, and their jungler will be outleveling and outfarming the solos.
Except a free-farmed solo laner outfarms everything even if the jungler does well. That's why they're called carries.
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Ya I realize that. Its just that Bly and a few others are continuing to overestimate and misunderstand how the game works. I am very well aware that in this scenario, my team would probably lose. The overall argument began when I made the (accurate) point that my team has a better chance of winning if I lane against jiji than if I try to jungle against TheOddOne.
@ South- Not necessarily. A superfarmed jungle generally means 2 things- first, all of the enemy lanes are gimped hard, and each of your lanes are probably better off than the enemy lanes. A farmed carry from laning generally means that instead of 5 being better off then the enemy team, 1 person is. Does this win games? Yes. However, it is MUCH easier to come back from a single farmed carry simply because you kill him first every fight, catch up a little bit in farm, and bam, even game. Its every elo hell post in existence. Its much harder to come back from a scenario where every single member of your team is at a farm disadvantage vs the enemy.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On September 27 2011 00:03 Slaughter wrote:
Lol just jungled for the 1st time ever (used fiddle). Man I did bad lol 0-9-5 (of course my entire team was also being raped I think we were 9-34 in kills lol)
lol my first time jungling was as master yi without the right runes at all. 0/9/0, died twice to red buff.
me: "second boss so difficult"
team: "FUCKKKKK YOUUUUU FEEEEEEEEEEDER"
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That's relative to your skill level compared to your teammates, to be honest. If I were with you but also with 3 others I trust heavily, I'd just say "jungle, dog" and deal with whatever jungle shenanigans arise. You being fucked up doesn't affect the other 3 lanes, and so it's easier for us to demolish our lanes and carry that way, as opposed to having our jungler need to 1v1 the other jungler AND babysit a lane.
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actually t_d now that i use some reading comprehension you are making specific claims about how well you would do vs jiji.... Which is ludicrous.... But your original point as restated above i think is validOn September 27 2011 02:39 Southlight wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2011 02:38 UniversalSnip wrote:
bly you are totally missing his point, he is saying that yes he would get destroyed in lane (it's fucking jiji), but not nearly as badly as oddone would rape him in jungle, because jungling is just that much more risky. I am inclined to agree. If a laner is being outplayed that badly he can sit at his tower and end up two levels and a lot of cs behind, if a jungler is being outplayed that badly he has no method of playing passively. He'll probably end up five levels behind and with practically no cs, and their jungler will be outleveling and outfarming the solos. Except a free-farmed solo laner outfarms everything even if the jungler does well. That's why they're called carries.
rather have fed jungler farming both halves of the map than a freefarm solo. Maybe jiji will end up more powerful than theoddone but i feel the second scenario gives a better chance of winning the game.
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Think of some horrible games as mid, where some Brand goes 2/0/0 early game and completely zones the other guy in mid, then when he leaves to gank and whatnot the other guy slowly catches up in cs. Yes he's behind, maybe even 2 levels down, but he's not utterly useless.
Compare this to games where your jungler gets completely counterjungled and has trouble keeping up in levels/cs, has no map presence whereas you're afraid to leave your tower due to the opposing jungler, and sometimes 3+ levels behind the opposing jungler.
That's what two_down is talking about. Think of how many times in pro games a jungler comes in to gank, and the other team's jungler is right behind to help out. Or always has dragon area warded. Or rarely loses their buffs unless already behind.
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Jiji is a tough example because people don't realize how fucking suffocating he is; watching streams don't really tell you how hard it is to prevent Jiji from carrying, everything be damned. That's even with dedicated attempts to knock him off rhythm. That's one of the major things I respected from the top-end "Korean" carry players, like GJ and Jiji. They carry through thick and thin.
If you give someone like Reginald, who is a significantly more aggressive player who WILL kill you every time you mis-step, free farm, then you are asking for a 15 minute loss. By which I mean he will gank the living hell out of your team, make your life miserable, and give you a coup de grace very quickly. You can NOT give players like that free farm. In that case nothing else matters; mid lane just handed them the game within 15 minutes.
Jiji is just a slightly less flashy version. By all accounts giving him free farm from the onset spells game over. It'll just take longer and give you the illusion that you're in the game, but eventually he "kicks in" and "decides to end it," and that's that.
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
haha thats probably why people lose lanes to people like jiji and stuff they overestimate them so much and play pussy. I've laned vs jiji before and let me tell you he isn't some magician or anything. this game is fairly basic.
edit- dont think ive won with jiji on my team either. like 0-3 zz.
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Haha, the things you hear on stream.
Hotshot: "Where is Arizona? I don't even know ..."
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On September 27 2011 02:52 Brees wrote:
haha thats probably why people lose lanes to people like jiji and stuff they overestimate them so much and play pussy. I've laned vs jiji before and let me tell you he isn't some magician or anything. this game is fairly basic.
edit- dont think ive won with jiji on my team either. like 0-3 zz.
I think a really big part of being good at this game is just having the swag to make your opponent afraid of you.
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On September 27 2011 02:52 Brees wrote:
haha thats probably why people lose lanes to people like jiji and stuff they overestimate them so much and play pussy. I've laned vs jiji before and let me tell you he isn't some magician or anything. this game is fairly basic.
edit- dont think ive won with jiji on my team either. like 0-3 zz.
Hahah, the old TL ranked 5 team had hell against CLG, because they'd make it look so close, but in reality their whole team was just ahead on farm. So fucking hard to stop Jiji/HSGG from farming. It doesn't look like a lost lane but it's a lost lane, just marginally, and that marginally is enough to tilt the game too heavily in their favor :p
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On September 27 2011 02:32 Two_DoWn wrote:
Thats exactly what I am saying. I could last a laning phase against jiji without dying and staying within 40 cs, in a normal game scenario (ie not 1v1 solo mid, I have jungle help, ect).
On September 27 2011 02:32 Two_DoWn wrote:
I, or any other decent player have enough experience to know what the danger zones are for dying in most situations.
Stopped reading here.
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EPT
