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On February 21 2012 04:22 Navi wrote:
we didn't have a strong source of initiation, which is not a problem with 2 super speeds if we are tied or in the lead - but since we were behind the entire game until after the first baron and the teamfight won right after, this bit us in the butt
idk why people are talking about "dictating fights on our own terms" as that is almost entirely decided by team compisition, and with kennen and janna and sivir ultimate there's no way in hell we can dictate 5v5s as well as they can inherently by kits.
the effectiveness of my peel and monte's was cut drastically by janna - i had 1 ult where i should have landed it but failed entirely because i waited a moment too long, but the others were ruined by janna's ultimate forcing me to make awkward flashes in the hope of a max range ultimate on chobz who was blown in the other direction (or him just dying while i was being blown away giving no time for an ult) etc.
with a very weak team fight support like nunu (at least vs this much disruption) the effectiveness of teamfighting is drastically reduced. sona and ali would have been much better in teamfights for initiation and peel
i agree with chobz that ur picks are your weakest part of your game
Well, by dictating fights I was more refering to being able to tell WHEN you wanted to fight and when you didnt. Like there was one fight that kennen just came in from behind and destroyed Chobz and the fight was done then and there. If you are pushing like that on the left side you NEED a ward to tell where Kennen/LB are so that doesnt happen.
And ya, I disagree pretty heavily with a lot of Ghandi's picks and comps.
And Denis- I apologize for bein a dick yesterday- dun take it personal. I was just frustrated.
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in general, positioning as an AD carry, you should know who you want to stick close to as well
in that fight and in most chobz should have positioned himself closer to me / monte over gandhi cuz wtf can nunu do to a rushing kennen or lb
probably my 1 main criticism for chobz, other than that he played well in teamfights
"tell WHEN we wanted to fight and we didn't?" no, we got initiated on in a disadvantageous position - we don't have the power to "dictate" that on our own terms due to their superior teamcomp for teamfighting, which is why i did that really gay thing where we ran around farming harder than them due to the fact that they just couldn't catch us
to prevent that kind of initiation, better ward coverage or perhaps just CV (!!!) would be good.
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Ya I was pretty much refering to ward coverage. Currently, thanks to shurelias, if you are pushing and get engaged on its either because A) you didnt have a ward to see them converging or B) just didnt react fast enough.
Had you guys had blue warded for that fight you would have been able to just back off. IMO that IS dictating a fight- being aware of what the enemy is trying to do (thanks to map coverage) and not allowing them to do it. Just cuz you cant hard engage very well (only initiation was GP since Mao was so squishy) doesnt mean you are completely at their mercy.
Realistically we are just arguing the same thing with different semantics.
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again, chobz could have stuck closer to me.
there are a bunch of things you can improve, but i would avoid very large weird ass statements like "dictating fights better" because every team needs to improve with that l0l0l0l0l
the most CONCRETE easy things to work on from the first game were early jungling, jungle control and how you guys defend your first blue, not losing lane - this one is pretty big and easily practicable - and teamfighting positioning and goals and picking around all three of those.
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On February 21 2012 04:03 Two_DoWn wrote:
Thoughts on game 1-
Why gank lvl 2 without w? Wasted op at level 3 after she used w. Not sure why ghandi was where he was at the blue fight. Wraiths wasted time- should have had blue- no ken ult, lb with no mana. You knew drag was up at 15:30- but went to wraiths and burned mana- GP should have cancelled that TP- no point the fight was already lost. Chobz & Ghandi really bad positioning in a lot of fights early. 25 minute mark- Chobz should not facecheck into 3.
Late game- you guys did a pretty bad job of dictating fights on your own terms- poor warding overall let them come in from angles and get to chobz which lost you a few fights.
Shoutout to GP- he did really well that game. Realistically better warding and navi not missing a few ults should have been the difference. But early game is still really really bad.
Monty notes (too bad it was your camera) - you need to be more efficient. You burn through your mana on Mao and dont really get anything out of it. Personally I find maxing e gives me a lot more clear power. And you really need to not leave an area where you need to be just to get a set of wraiths. Twice you had objectives you could have gotten but were out of position cuz you left the area.
I'm not sure what level 2 gank you were referring to. I was considering going to their blue but decided against it when it was clear that Trundle was heading there with LeBlanc, so I cleared Wraiths again.
Also not sure what missed opportunity you refer to at level 3. After she used W at ~4:15 she was in a safe enough position that there was no point in using Flash to grab her, especially considering Navi would have been too far away to capitalize. While damage would have been done, it wouldn't have been worth my Flash. The only moment it might have made sense was the moment I was rooted.
Wraiths at 15:30 was something of a communication/perception error. I was in position at 15:20, but aside from Ghandi warding the collapse wasn't happening. Then Trundle attacked Navi, so I entered his lane to support him and ward off Trundle. Solo queue/normal instincts kicked in and rather than vocally tell people "We need to get to dragon now." I grabbed Wraiths. A similar communication mistake happens in game 2 where Soniv and Ghandi go for dragon while I chase an out of position Sivir.
I think my actual mistake on mana was using E despite not skilling it up. Q is actually more mana efficient than E, but isn't as time efficient, so maxing it out first was necessary due to the losing the first blue buff. However, I still used E out of habit which defeated the purpose.
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On February 21 2012 05:41 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 04:03 Two_DoWn wrote:
Thoughts on game 1-
Why gank lvl 2 without w? Wasted op at level 3 after she used w. Not sure why ghandi was where he was at the blue fight. Wraiths wasted time- should have had blue- no ken ult, lb with no mana. You knew drag was up at 15:30- but went to wraiths and burned mana- GP should have cancelled that TP- no point the fight was already lost. Chobz & Ghandi really bad positioning in a lot of fights early. 25 minute mark- Chobz should not facecheck into 3.
Late game- you guys did a pretty bad job of dictating fights on your own terms- poor warding overall let them come in from angles and get to chobz which lost you a few fights.
Shoutout to GP- he did really well that game. Realistically better warding and navi not missing a few ults should have been the difference. But early game is still really really bad.
Monty notes (too bad it was your camera) - you need to be more efficient. You burn through your mana on Mao and dont really get anything out of it. Personally I find maxing e gives me a lot more clear power. And you really need to not leave an area where you need to be just to get a set of wraiths. Twice you had objectives you could have gotten but were out of position cuz you left the area. I'm not sure what level 2 gank you were referring to. I was considering going to their blue but decided against it when it was clear that Trundle was heading there with LeBlanc, so I cleared Wraiths again. Also not sure what missed opportunity you refer to at level 3. After she used W at ~4:15 she was in a safe enough position that there was no point in using Flash to grab her, especially considering Navi would have been too far away to capitalize. While damage would have been done, it wouldn't have been worth my Flash. The only moment it might have made sense was the moment I was rooted. Wraiths at 15:30 was something of a communication/perception error. I was in position at 15:20, but aside from Ghandi warding the collapse wasn't happening. Then Trundle attacked Navi, so I entered his lane to support him and ward off Trundle. Solo queue/normal instincts kicked in and rather than vocally tell people "We need to get to dragon now." I grabbed Wraiths. A similar communication mistake happens in game 2 where Soniv and Ghandi go for dragon while I chase an out of position Sivir. I think my actual mistake on mana was using E despite not skilling it up. Q is actually more mana efficient than E, but isn't as time efficient, so maxing it out first was necessary due to the losing the first blue buff. However, I still used E out of habit which defeated the purpose.
You went to the bush mid with no w, asking if navi wanted a gank. Should have just gone to wolves then back to wraiths.
You wasted time 3 cuz she popped w. That was your only shot cuz she had blue. If she used it just back off to go farm more if there was no opportunity. Getting her to blow it again meant nothing to her.
Ya I actually think E would have just helped you more that game. Less mana efficient, but MUCH better for clearing. Just give GP gols and focus on wolves wraiths every time they up and try to gank top/bot.
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On February 21 2012 05:50 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 05:41 Seuss wrote:On February 21 2012 04:03 Two_DoWn wrote:
Thoughts on game 1-
Why gank lvl 2 without w? Wasted op at level 3 after she used w. Not sure why ghandi was where he was at the blue fight. Wraiths wasted time- should have had blue- no ken ult, lb with no mana. You knew drag was up at 15:30- but went to wraiths and burned mana- GP should have cancelled that TP- no point the fight was already lost. Chobz & Ghandi really bad positioning in a lot of fights early. 25 minute mark- Chobz should not facecheck into 3.
Late game- you guys did a pretty bad job of dictating fights on your own terms- poor warding overall let them come in from angles and get to chobz which lost you a few fights.
Shoutout to GP- he did really well that game. Realistically better warding and navi not missing a few ults should have been the difference. But early game is still really really bad.
Monty notes (too bad it was your camera) - you need to be more efficient. You burn through your mana on Mao and dont really get anything out of it. Personally I find maxing e gives me a lot more clear power. And you really need to not leave an area where you need to be just to get a set of wraiths. Twice you had objectives you could have gotten but were out of position cuz you left the area. I'm not sure what level 2 gank you were referring to. I was considering going to their blue but decided against it when it was clear that Trundle was heading there with LeBlanc, so I cleared Wraiths again. Also not sure what missed opportunity you refer to at level 3. After she used W at ~4:15 she was in a safe enough position that there was no point in using Flash to grab her, especially considering Navi would have been too far away to capitalize. While damage would have been done, it wouldn't have been worth my Flash. The only moment it might have made sense was the moment I was rooted. Wraiths at 15:30 was something of a communication/perception error. I was in position at 15:20, but aside from Ghandi warding the collapse wasn't happening. Then Trundle attacked Navi, so I entered his lane to support him and ward off Trundle. Solo queue/normal instincts kicked in and rather than vocally tell people "We need to get to dragon now." I grabbed Wraiths. A similar communication mistake happens in game 2 where Soniv and Ghandi go for dragon while I chase an out of position Sivir. I think my actual mistake on mana was using E despite not skilling it up. Q is actually more mana efficient than E, but isn't as time efficient, so maxing it out first was necessary due to the losing the first blue buff. However, I still used E out of habit which defeated the purpose. You went to the bush mid with no w, asking if navi wanted a gank. Should have just gone to wolves then back to wraiths. You wasted time 3 cuz she popped w. That was your only shot cuz she had blue. If she used it just back off to go farm more if there was no opportunity. Getting her to blow it again meant nothing to her. Ya I actually think E would have just helped you more that game. Less mana efficient, but MUCH better for clearing. Just give GP gols and focus on wolves wraiths every time they up and try to gank top/bot.
I didn't go to wolves because there was a strong possibility they wouldn't be there. We had completely abandoned blue, and as such one of the enemy team could have taken them if they pleased. Rather than potentially walk over to my wolves for nothing I decided to use my time to potentially pressure mid. This is a case where CV or a ward would have been helpful, as it would have let me know wolves hadn't been taken and would have given Gandhi the chance to safely clear the leftover lizard.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say about the level 3 gank. You first said I missed an opportunity after she used her W, but now you're saying I wasted time because she popped W. Your point isn't clear.
Clearing wasn't really my issue that game though, beyond my inefficient use of my mana. If I was going to gank as much as you suggest a stronger slow is more useful anyway. Moreover, due to the invasions and my failure to flash out of LeBlanc's chains (herp derp flash after damage) I was going to be behind in levels. Leveling E first would have left nominal ranks in Q and W, which would have severely reduced my ability to protect Chobz.
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ok we talked about ALL of this yesterday for a few hours without sounding like arguing retards so i think its time to stop. good games yesterday. first 2 games with the new lineup and we learned a lot. we already fixed a ton of shit in the ranked game we played after like the level 1 invasion bs. just need to play more now that we have a working lineup.
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It's okay. This is one of those talks where I feel like everyone says a lot but everyone learns relatively little.
Maybe the team should pay more attention on what works and try to recreate them as much as possible, rather than talking about what went wrong. Individual errors will eventually be phased out by virtue of each players, but we can't really improve team synergy unless we actively try to recreate good plays that we've done before. When you learn an instrument, for instance, you try to eliminate the bad habits and mistakes, but in the end most of your time and energy is spent actively practicing the right things. I feel like the same concept should apply here.
Granted this might make me the biggest hypocrite, but it's what I think, even if it's not what I do >_>
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As a total stranger to the team, I have to say that I enjoy reading this thread and seeing team communication and how you work on your issues and stuff like that. We kinda do it already within the scraps of teams I play with, but getting a standee PoV is interesting too.
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One thing from last night, we need to up the communication. This is especially important between me and monte, because we are the ones who will dictate most of the map control early to mid game. We both fell victim to miscommunications on a few different occasions, which is fine, but we do need to make sure we're on the same page with each other.
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On February 22 2012 00:13 Juicyfruit wrote:
It's okay. This is one of those talks where I feel like everyone says a lot but everyone learns relatively little.
Maybe the team should pay more attention on what works and try to recreate them as much as possible, rather than talking about what went wrong. Individual errors will eventually be phased out by virtue of each players, but we can't really improve team synergy unless we actively try to recreate good plays that we've done before. When you learn an instrument, for instance, you try to eliminate the bad habits and mistakes, but in the end most of your time and energy is spent actively practicing the right things. I feel like the same concept should apply here.
Granted this might make me the biggest hypocrite, but it's what I think, even if it's not what I do >_>
We definitely don't spend enough time on what works. I think a large part of that is because all of us are still highly flawed players, so each of us have a fairly long list of stuff to fix. It can be pretty overwhelming to think about everything you can improve upon.
I really liked the Nautilus + Leona combination last night. Having two tanky champions with craptons of CC was fairly abusive. Our top/mid lanes are usually light on CC and often very squishy, so making up for that with our jungler/support is very helpful.
Edit: Definitely need better communication. A lot of it is just we haven't really spent enough time playing seriously together. We've played a lot, but much of the time we're just messing around so we're not really improving our teamplay/communication.
Edit2: I should probably just duo queue with Soniv whenever the team as a whole can't play, as midlane/jungler communication is so crucial. There really isn't a better way I can think of for the two of us to improve our communication.
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Ya, back when da hoez did Go4LoLs, we really had trouble picking and doing whatever team comp we wanted cause we sucked at the game and didn't have the champions unlocked. Now when we ranked for the lulz, (or a QQ fest thanks to Navi and hiz 20k ping) we just try out random shit to see what works best.
*shrug* Maybe TL B hasn't come to terms with each other as much as my team. And that just comes with playing together more and being friends4ever. I wouldn't really worry about "synergy" or "communication" that much honestly. And I agree with Tapioca that all this team shit can't go well together if your individual players have bad habits or bad mechanics that hurt your game more than miscommunication.
Dude, if Soniv is anywhere near the level of Navi's whining for ganks then I don't know if it will work trolololol. GOOD LUCK MONTE #1 MORGANA
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On February 22 2012 03:56 Milestone wrote:
MONTE #1 MORGANA
When did that happen?
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Ya that was the big thing that I noticed when playin with monty as jungle. When I duo with Soniv I can pretty much tell if I need to ignore his whining for ganks or I actually need to go help him. Most of the time it just involves ignoring him and waiting for a good opportunity cuz he is capable of handling himself.
It felt more like Monty felt more obligated to go help every time which you just cant do. Soniv is gonna bitch, you just need to learn to ignore him lol.
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It was just a normal game where you killed zergman a million times with his numba wan renekton. And the best morgana build ever like woahh. (sorc hourglass rylai) did zero damage but was hella funny lol XD
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On February 22 2012 04:02 Two_DoWn wrote:
Ya that was the big thing that I noticed when playin with monty as jungle. When I duo with Soniv I can pretty much tell if I need to ignore his whining for ganks or I actually need to go help him. Most of the time it just involves ignoring him and waiting for a good opportunity cuz he is capable of handling himself.
It felt more like Monty felt more obligated to go help every time which you just cant do. Soniv is gonna bitch, you just need to learn to ignore him lol.
That's not the type of communication problem we're discussing.
On February 22 2012 04:04 Milestone wrote:
It was just a normal game where you killed zergman a million times with his numba wan renekton. And the best morgana build ever like woahh. (sorc hourglass rylai) did zero damage but was hella funny lol XD
I forget why I built that way. I think I felt like our team wasn't tanky enough/lacked initiation or something.
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On February 22 2012 04:12 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 04:02 Two_DoWn wrote:
Ya that was the big thing that I noticed when playin with monty as jungle. When I duo with Soniv I can pretty much tell if I need to ignore his whining for ganks or I actually need to go help him. Most of the time it just involves ignoring him and waiting for a good opportunity cuz he is capable of handling himself.
It felt more like Monty felt more obligated to go help every time which you just cant do. Soniv is gonna bitch, you just need to learn to ignore him lol. That's not the type of communication problem we're discussing.
I guess I misunderstood then based on the last point from somewhere above.
Point still stands though. It is something you should consider because it definitly ended up being a slight problem some games. Although it is 2 ways- Soniv clogs the communication channel and it creates undo thought and debate for you. Just keep it in the back of your head as you work on the rest of the movement/objective coordination. Any little extra bit of efficiency helps.
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Too much communication is somewhat a problem when there's 5 people talking to each other.
Imo, the only thing jungle should communicate to mid are:
-I will be ready to gank your lane in 30 seconds.
-Blue buff will be up in 1 minute.
-Let's go bot/mid/invade together
Conversely, the only thing mid needs to communicate to the jungle is:
-The enemy mid is within kill-range with your help.
-I will come out behind on an exchange, but I can use that to bait. Come help me turn this around.
-Let's go bot/mid/invade together
Unless I missed something, it's pretty much the only thing you need each other to know.
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EPT
