EPTOn October 12 2011 20:30 jcarlsoniv wrote:
I just wanna jump in and put down my two cents:
I think a big issue is that people put way too much stock into individual games. Tap gets REALLY mad if someone makes a mistake and it costs the team the game. This happens in normals. I don't understand. Normals mean nothing. It's practice, it's a learning experience, shit happens.
It took weeks to even convince Tap to do draft normals with one teammate missing. It got to the point where we started queuing without him because we got sick of sitting around. I fully intend to keep doing this.
But the thing is, if you're doing draft normals, there is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON NOT TO DO RANKED. It makes it more interesting. We would get more challenging opponents, which then leads to getting better. It has always annoyed me how people shy away from being competitive with ranked or scrims. That's not how we get better. We get better by facing stronger players, by losing, by making mistakes. If you always get easy opponents and trololol you're way to victory every game, it makes you worse.
When I can start playing again after this week, I expect us to do ranked 5s every time we have 5 on, even if we have to borrow someone from outside the team. You can't give me a legitimate reason that tells me we shouldn't.
I just wanna jump in and put down my two cents:
I think a big issue is that people put way too much stock into individual games. Tap gets REALLY mad if someone makes a mistake and it costs the team the game. This happens in normals. I don't understand. Normals mean nothing. It's practice, it's a learning experience, shit happens.
It took weeks to even convince Tap to do draft normals with one teammate missing. It got to the point where we started queuing without him because we got sick of sitting around. I fully intend to keep doing this.
But the thing is, if you're doing draft normals, there is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON NOT TO DO RANKED. It makes it more interesting. We would get more challenging opponents, which then leads to getting better. It has always annoyed me how people shy away from being competitive with ranked or scrims. That's not how we get better. We get better by facing stronger players, by losing, by making mistakes. If you always get easy opponents and trololol you're way to victory every game, it makes you worse.
When I can start playing again after this week, I expect us to do ranked 5s every time we have 5 on, even if we have to borrow someone from outside the team. You can't give me a legitimate reason that tells me we shouldn't.
Me being mad and being frustrated are a little different. I never take your mistakes as anything personal. I don't view you as a lesser player because you made them. I make game-ending mistakes every so often, sometimes 1 minute into the game lolol, and I really couldn't get offended if people called me out on them. I don't put stock on individual games. I can win more later if I need to. I get frustrated with what led to the mistake in the first place, which is that we can't really get organized in a teamfight and we read the game too differently and instead of acknowledging that everyone can see a situation in a different manner, once a call has been made it has to be followed through by everyone, even if you think what you are doing is more important.
On October 12 2011 15:31 BlackPaladin wrote:
1. Tapioca Rage
Most of the old TL B had problems and wanted to stop playing with TL B because of the legendary "tapioca rage." From what I remember, Tapioca did improve on that a bit since I first began playing with him in the old TL B team. Now there is a new team, and the people who enjoyed playing together now play with other TL members in this new TL team. But the old tapioca rage is still alive and strong.
I say "no rage" very often and then the response like 2 minutes later is "WHY YOU SO BAD YOU SHOULD DO THIS NOT THAT." When you're concentrating on the game you do NOT need such things. Ever. It does NOT improve your game when someone is yelling at you HOW you do something while you're trying to play. You will not learn how to do something while in the game when someone is yelling at you and you're trying to concentrate.
That's not something I need to work on with tap. That's something Tapioca needs to personally work on himself, because it's his own personality issue. It's that rage which pushes a lot of people away and causes them to not want to listen anymore. Basically, it gets them fed up. The thing is, I'm the most vocal about it, because I not only want the team to work but I want to be able to play with Tapioca without needing to listen to such things. So it seems like this "hate" stems from me, but everyone has similar feelings about this. This is one of the biggest problems at this moment. Tap needs to learn to control HIMSELF before he can control the team.
1. Tapioca Rage
Most of the old TL B had problems and wanted to stop playing with TL B because of the legendary "tapioca rage." From what I remember, Tapioca did improve on that a bit since I first began playing with him in the old TL B team. Now there is a new team, and the people who enjoyed playing together now play with other TL members in this new TL team. But the old tapioca rage is still alive and strong.
I say "no rage" very often and then the response like 2 minutes later is "WHY YOU SO BAD YOU SHOULD DO THIS NOT THAT." When you're concentrating on the game you do NOT need such things. Ever. It does NOT improve your game when someone is yelling at you HOW you do something while you're trying to play. You will not learn how to do something while in the game when someone is yelling at you and you're trying to concentrate.
That's not something I need to work on with tap. That's something Tapioca needs to personally work on himself, because it's his own personality issue. It's that rage which pushes a lot of people away and causes them to not want to listen anymore. Basically, it gets them fed up. The thing is, I'm the most vocal about it, because I not only want the team to work but I want to be able to play with Tapioca without needing to listen to such things. So it seems like this "hate" stems from me, but everyone has similar feelings about this. This is one of the biggest problems at this moment. Tap needs to learn to control HIMSELF before he can control the team.
BP, you have your own issues you need to work for an you need to stop attributing every negative morale issues to me. You pretty much get really pissed off when you yourself make a mistake in laning and you refuse to let anyone call you out on it. I think that attitude is extremely childish. You make excuses when you die in lane 1v1, you even got pissed off at me once and was like "DON'T TALK TO ME WHEN I AM FIGHTING" even though all I was doing was telling you where X was going.
My issue here is that you never listen to me in the first place. I am nice about criticizing your play but you take everything as a personal offence at you as a human being if I tell you why you did something wrong. If my attitude is a problem, your reaction to is is certainly no better. It takes two to create friction. You provoke me on purpose, trying to justify your own presumptions of me. As proof, I don't think I have ever raged at anyone in TL B in games that you were not in.
Fact of matter is, I acknowledged Navi's advice that duo queuing would solve a lot of our issues. You refuse to try it out because it will again contradict what you already believe of me, and frankly that's your own choice, just realize that I already agree to duo queuing with you as well as everyone on the team so that I can get a better sense of each other's strengths and weaknesses as players.
2. Listening and the role of an ingame leader
A big problem recently has been "listening to calls." You can argue that the team needs to learn to "listen to the calls no matter what even if it's wrong." But the problem is that, perhaps it's just the pressure got to Tap or his own personal lack of map awareness but he makes a lot of calls that are just outright wrong. like 150% wrong and in any serious game would not only cost us the game but could cost us tournament money simply because of his stubbornness of "you should follow me because I'm the leader."
A really good example can be from last nights game where I played nidalee mid vs akali. After a fight bot we lost 1 and killed 1. Tap tells us to dragon. Akali was mid lane. Our jungle fiddle was oom. Rhavanna did no damage. Akali can burst me to half health with 1 qr auto. We could NOT dragon in that situation. Akali was able to 1v2 fiddle + me when we were both full health and nearly full mana. She then had those 2 kills, was even more farmed, and fiddle was now in this situation oom. There. Was. No. Possible. Way. We. Could. Have. Dragoned. But instead of beleiving us Tap goes on a ragefest for like 20 more minutes. You speak of "not trusting your calls" but you don't trust your entire team telling you otherwise. That's a big problem.
But I don't believe in the first place that the main ingame leader makes 100% of the calls. I believe the main leader makes slightly more calls than the rest of the team. We should in games always talk actively like "we could possibly try to steal their blue" or "maybe we should force a dragon fight, we're stronger, what do you guys think?" If lanes ask for ganks Tap should not go "no don't help that lane, screw them." The jungler should instead help them apply pressure.
A big problem recently has been "listening to calls." You can argue that the team needs to learn to "listen to the calls no matter what even if it's wrong." But the problem is that, perhaps it's just the pressure got to Tap or his own personal lack of map awareness but he makes a lot of calls that are just outright wrong. like 150% wrong and in any serious game would not only cost us the game but could cost us tournament money simply because of his stubbornness of "you should follow me because I'm the leader."
A really good example can be from last nights game where I played nidalee mid vs akali. After a fight bot we lost 1 and killed 1. Tap tells us to dragon. Akali was mid lane. Our jungle fiddle was oom. Rhavanna did no damage. Akali can burst me to half health with 1 qr auto. We could NOT dragon in that situation. Akali was able to 1v2 fiddle + me when we were both full health and nearly full mana. She then had those 2 kills, was even more farmed, and fiddle was now in this situation oom. There. Was. No. Possible. Way. We. Could. Have. Dragoned. But instead of beleiving us Tap goes on a ragefest for like 20 more minutes. You speak of "not trusting your calls" but you don't trust your entire team telling you otherwise. That's a big problem.
But I don't believe in the first place that the main ingame leader makes 100% of the calls. I believe the main leader makes slightly more calls than the rest of the team. We should in games always talk actively like "we could possibly try to steal their blue" or "maybe we should force a dragon fight, we're stronger, what do you guys think?" If lanes ask for ganks Tap should not go "no don't help that lane, screw them." The jungler should instead help them apply pressure.
You tell me my calls are wrong, but the thing is that they're not. I make a lot of RISKY calls, but calls that nonetheless should work if it was played out properly. At the very least, you should do it them anyways and let me see the results of those calls, and I can tell you afterwards what I imagined how the scenario would play out.
For instance, when I made that dragon call yesterday, it was genuinely a 3v1. Fiddle didn't have much mana but he had enough for fear. I looked, I genuinely clicked on him to see. You were all full health too. To tell me that Akali can 1v3 a fiddle, alistar, and nidalee at that point, even if she was fed (but not 20-0 fed) seems like something that CAN happen but only if you get completely outplayed. 2v1 and 3v1 is still very much different. You have 1 extra cc, you have more damage. Akali`s burst doesn`t mean shit if she`s being pinned to a wall and stunned and feared while taking on burst from nidalee. It could have gone horribly wrong, but so what? There wasn't even a guarantee that Akali would have gave up that farm mid just go potentially stop a 3v1 dragon attempt and you would have had full vision of her coming if she did. You simply didn`t want to DO it. It was hardly an issue of whether or not you could, since that`s a complete tossup and from my point of view, hardly impossible.
For the most part, I get frustrated easily, but I rarely go flying off the handle at at a single mistake and more like arguing the shit with me everytime I make a call, people don't actually follow through with my calls and then argue about why it's a bad call or why it's a mistake when I'd much rather see why it's wrong.
I have a large tendency to make calls that only have a 10-20 second window to be done without it being punishable. In a game before then, I saw 2 enemy team bot, at their bot second tower, and 4 of you were hovering baron area. Enemy first tower was 20% health away so I said "go push top", since it was a free tower, and yet there was such a significant enough delay between when I said it, and when you actually did it, that it actually gave them the opportunity to group up and push mid and get an inhibit instead. I made a mistake there, but I genuinely DO trust my teammates. I never micromanage, but I also don't like leaving all the issues till after the game simply because a lot of them are forgotten, and not everyone can be bothered to watch the replay/vods when it's simply easy for me to say "wtf BP, when I come gank for you, it's not your job to engage them and bait their entire burst + ignite just as I come out the brush".
3. Jungling as a whole
Tap's our main jungler, so I apologize that a lot of this post has been a bit biased towards Tap, lol. But one big thing about your play, Tap, is that you always think if a lane is "ungankable" it's meaningless to even go there. That makes it so that there is NO pressure on that lane so they can do whatever the fuck they want, and that's just really really bad play. The enemy just knowing the jungle is near their lane is going to play more passively, and that can make a whole world of difference in lane and can allow you to farm better or play more aggressive yourself. Just the jungle being there makes a world of difference. You don't even need them to gank.
loae talked about this a lot tonight too and tried to teach Astarwulf a bit about it. I think one of the largest weaknesses of our entire team is our jungle. It's partially why loae either HAS TO jungle for us or we're going to lose any real tourny because he's the only one who really knows and applies a lot of knowledge about such things into the game (where enemy warded, jungle timers, where to CV, jungle routes, how to gank, where to gank, how to apply pressure where it's needed, etc)
I think that sums up a lot of the problems we're facing atm. What we really need is a good dedicated jungler. One who really understands the game well, at least to loae's level of understanding when it comes to the jungle and gameflow as a whole. That would make loae and chobz be able to practice together more because we won't need to rely on loae needing to jungle for us. Obviously we all also need practice ourselves (gandhi, me, soniv, rhav, etc) but if the jungle can properly apply pressure or bring map control for our team then that makes up for many issue's lanes might have (being counterpicked, being outplayed, being ganked too often, etc)
Tap's our main jungler, so I apologize that a lot of this post has been a bit biased towards Tap, lol. But one big thing about your play, Tap, is that you always think if a lane is "ungankable" it's meaningless to even go there. That makes it so that there is NO pressure on that lane so they can do whatever the fuck they want, and that's just really really bad play. The enemy just knowing the jungle is near their lane is going to play more passively, and that can make a whole world of difference in lane and can allow you to farm better or play more aggressive yourself. Just the jungle being there makes a world of difference. You don't even need them to gank.
loae talked about this a lot tonight too and tried to teach Astarwulf a bit about it. I think one of the largest weaknesses of our entire team is our jungle. It's partially why loae either HAS TO jungle for us or we're going to lose any real tourny because he's the only one who really knows and applies a lot of knowledge about such things into the game (where enemy warded, jungle timers, where to CV, jungle routes, how to gank, where to gank, how to apply pressure where it's needed, etc)
I think that sums up a lot of the problems we're facing atm. What we really need is a good dedicated jungler. One who really understands the game well, at least to loae's level of understanding when it comes to the jungle and gameflow as a whole. That would make loae and chobz be able to practice together more because we won't need to rely on loae needing to jungle for us. Obviously we all also need practice ourselves (gandhi, me, soniv, rhav, etc) but if the jungle can properly apply pressure or bring map control for our team then that makes up for many issue's lanes might have (being counterpicked, being outplayed, being ganked too often, etc)
This is a very long rant about how I suck at jungling, and an even more elaborate way of saying "I don't want Tap to play for us".
Sorry that I see the game differently from you and make different judgments, but I win games and I doubt Ioae would play the game significantly different from me. Rather than babysitting Maokai top vs Nasus and give up everywhere else, I'd rather concede that Nasus would get freefarm alongside Maokai and instead focus on dominating the lower half of the map and get dragons, and then kite him properly in teamfights with Janna since we had plenty of ways to neuter Nasus even if he gets farmed up, and Maokai is no slouch at scaling either. That's not me saying "screw a lane". That's me genuinely not wanting to waste resources and time on a lane that's least likely to be problematic when they have Xerath mid and Kogmaw bot who needed equally to be shut down. I won us two dragons, and I still get blamed for not shutting down Nasus from freefarming top and losing us the game; that`s ridiculous and not at all an indictment of my judgments as a jungler.
If I think a lane is ungankable, it doesn`t mean I don`t want to come help, it just means that I need to establish dominance elsewhere first, so that i can pull enough resources to realistically do a 3-man gank and actually accomplish something with my gank other than to push the lane from aggroing creeps and inciting a countergank.
