EPT[Discussion] Breaking 1600 - Page 7
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
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Frolossus
United States4779 Posts
On December 08 2010 06:33 Southlight wrote: Around 16 is average, as gains tend to range from 4 to 25ish. You get more beating better players, less beating worse players. Elo dungeon is a myth propogated by people who aren't that good. There are bad players at all levels, and each team tends to have at least one bad player as well. You're just not doing a good job figuring out who, and punishing them. Also they say 1200 isn't even average anymore it's like top 25%. It's a tough pill for people to swallow to acknowledge they just aren't that good. Elo hell is more for the people who aren't quite good enough to make a difference in most of their games, but they aren't so bad that they deserve their elo. | ||
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Southlight
United States11767 Posts
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Frolossus
United States4779 Posts
On December 08 2010 07:27 Southlight wrote: Really? Generally-speaking all the "decent" and "good" players around that elo have the same elo too. So do the bads, but that happens everywhere. As Brees mentioned some time ago, there're some "amazing" 1600s and some "terrible" 2000s. Does that mean the 1600 doesn't deserve his elo? It means that the 1600 plays better then his elo gives him credit for and the 2000 player got carried too much. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
On December 08 2010 07:34 xDaunt wrote: Just out of curiosity, if you are generally good at farming and don't feed, how far could you go ELO-wise if you whored Twitch every game? I'd say: Depends on your luck. Twitch needs decent allies to take all the nasty stuff before he actually engages in the fight. And after that he still needs someone tanking for him. | ||
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Southlight
United States11767 Posts
On December 08 2010 07:34 xDaunt wrote: Just out of curiosity, if you are generally good at farming and don't feed, how far could you go ELO-wise if you whored Twitch every game? 2000+ as most ranged DPS players can play Twitch just fine. | ||
NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
On December 08 2010 04:47 Southlight wrote: I disagree with almost everything said here. I think the #1 way to rise ladder is to play a hero that can farm heroes. You don't need a tank, you don't need support, if you can butcher your lane and cut people down then all you need to do is make sure you play patiently and wait for mistakes by the opponent. Play confident. Play selfish. And adjust to what you actually have. Don't have a tank? Engage 5 seconds after combat has started; someone will initiate, guaranteed, just make sure it's not a tank initiating onto you. Also learn to farm in sidelane, learn to play safe and avoid dying. If you play a good last-hitter you'll still get farmed. Is it slower? Yes. Doesn't mean you can't do it. And you'll need to, because sometimes you won't be able to secure solo. Farm heroes... sounds like carries and jungle to me. | ||
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ZERG_RUSSIAN
10417 Posts
On December 08 2010 07:29 Frolossus wrote: It means that the 1600 plays better then his elo gives him credit for and the 2000 player got carried too much. You don't get to 2000 by getting carried. Straight up, if you think you are competing with the top what, 50 players in this game? because they got carried, you are wrong. 1600, yeah, you can get carried to. 1700? Maybe. Anything higher than that is skill, straight up. You might think a player is terrible because they had an off game, or maybe they just failed against you a few times, but 2000 ranked players are the top 0.001% of this game. They didn't get carried there. | ||
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
On December 08 2010 04:47 Southlight wrote: I disagree with almost everything said here. I think the #1 way to rise ladder is to play a hero that can farm heroes. You don't need a tank, you don't need support, if you can butcher your lane and cut people down then all you need to do is make sure you play patiently and wait for mistakes by the opponent. Play confident. Play selfish. And adjust to what you actually have. Don't have a tank? Engage 5 seconds after combat has started; someone will initiate, guaranteed, just make sure it's not a tank initiating onto you. Also learn to farm in sidelane, learn to play safe and avoid dying. If you play a good last-hitter you'll still get farmed. Is it slower? Yes. Doesn't mean you can't do it. And you'll need to, because sometimes you won't be able to secure solo. This part has helped me out soooo much in some games, especially where I get behind, but other people just don't seem to understand. I'll go to a sidelane that got naturally pushed by enemy minions (a bit in front of our second tower, for example.) There's enough minions there that even if im last hitting EVERYTHING (but NOT throwing down aoes) I won't push the lane, just because there's so many ranged creeps and they're being replenished at the same rate i'm killing them (because i'm being patient and only taking last hits...) Then our [insert someone who isnt our carry, or even is..] comes by and instantly flattens the wave. Sure, you get 500 gold now. But now that wave is going to be pushed so far out and can't be farmed anymore. When we aren't in a position to push lanes, why do this? | ||
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R04R
United States1631 Posts
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WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
On December 08 2010 14:12 sylverfyre wrote: This part has helped me out soooo much in some games, especially where I get behind, but other people just don't seem to understand. I'll go to a sidelane that got naturally pushed by enemy minions (a bit in front of our second tower, for example.) There's enough minions there that even if im last hitting EVERYTHING (but NOT throwing down aoes) I won't push the lane, just because there's so many ranged creeps and they're being replenished at the same rate i'm killing them (because i'm being patient and only taking last hits...) Then our [insert someone who isnt our carry, or even is..] comes by and instantly flattens the wave. Sure, you get 500 gold now. But now that wave is going to be pushed so far out and can't be farmed anymore. When we aren't in a position to push lanes, why do this? Possibly because if the wave isn't flattened immediately and all the gold/XP gained quickly the enemy will catch on and attempt to gank? Or by leaving the enemy minions pushed close to your own tower you make it easier for them to knock it down? It all depends on what phase of the game you're talking about. Early game I can definitely see not flattening the entire wave. Late game however it would be a mistake just to sit and farm slowly when baron is up for grabs and there are towers down on one (or both) sides. Especially if you want to make it harder for your towers to be pushed without minions revealing enemy positioning. EDIT: MY LIFE FOR AIUR!! | ||
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ZERG_RUSSIAN
10417 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On December 08 2010 14:12 sylverfyre wrote: Then our [insert someone who isnt our carry, or even is..] comes by and instantly flattens the wave. Sure, you get 500 gold now. But now that wave is going to be pushed so far out and can't be farmed anymore. When we aren't in a position to push lanes, why do this? Because seeing you tied up there farming for an extended period of time opens up options for your opponent. When they see one person solo farming top, it lets them 5 man dragon because they know you won't get there in time for the fight. Flattening the wave quickly frees you up to contribute on other parts of the map--and puts the onus on the other team to send someone to clear/farm the big wave when it reaches their side (possibly giving your team an opening to push/dragon later when you see one person too far to contribute in time). Clearing those waves is obviously not always right, but it's also not obviously wrong every time either. On December 08 2010 15:07 WaveofShadow wrote: Possibly because if the wave isn't flattened immediately and all the gold/XP gained quickly the enemy will catch on and attempt to gank? Or by leaving the enemy minions pushed close to your own tower you make it easier for them to knock it down? It all depends on what phase of the game you're talking about. Early game I can definitely see not flattening the entire wave. Late game however it would be a mistake just to sit and farm slowly when baron is up for grabs and there are towers down on one (or both) sides. Especially if you want to make it harder for your towers to be pushed without minions revealing enemy positioning. EDIT: MY LIFE FOR AIUR!! Even early game, it's sometimes a good idea to force the wave into their tower if no one is there (e.g. the opponent just backed for the first time)--the tower kills creeps way more efficiently than the enemy minions, so unless you expect the opponent to be back to lane before the tower cleans up your minions (not exactly hard to judge, seeing as you've probably backed-returned to lane hundreds of times in all the games you've played), you deny more XP/gold by forcing the wave into tower than by holding the waves in the center. | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
Even early game, it's sometimes a good idea to force the wave into their tower if no one is there (e.g. the opponent just backed for the first time)--the tower kills creeps way more efficiently than the enemy minions, so unless you expect the opponent to be back to lane before the tower cleans up your minions (not exactly hard to judge, seeing as you've probably backed-returned to lane hundreds of times in all the games you've played), you deny more XP/gold by forcing the wave into tower than by holding the waves in the center. Good advice; I find this is particularly important for solo lane play and less emphasized for dual/ 1v2 lanes. | ||
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cXm0d
United States93 Posts
We def would have won if we just had one more person. | ||
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ZERG_RUSSIAN
10417 Posts
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cXm0d
United States93 Posts
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gtrsrs
United States9109 Posts
On December 08 2010 04:47 Southlight wrote: I disagree with almost everything said here. I think the #1 way to rise ladder is to play a hero that can farm heroes. You don't need a tank, you don't need support, if you can butcher your lane and cut people down then all you need to do is make sure you play patiently and wait for mistakes by the opponent. i think this may be true at the slightly higher levels but at 1200-1400 IMO, it's more important to play a champion that will punish the other team for leaving a lane open. shaco, sivir, shen, master yi, udyr... these champs will take 2 towers in every lane if the other team tries to force a baron or a teamfight. and unfortunately at low levels, players don't know how to handle lack of map control. you'll find that in evenly matched teams (skillwise and compwise), if a team goes up 3 towers to 0 (like every first tower), they can be down 2 dragons and 5 champ kills and all they have to do is stick some wards up and maintain map control and they will win every time. the team down towers will send people to put up wards and get ambushed repeatedly, have no baron/dragon control, and just get totally bullied whenever they try to farm. taking a champ that can gank and then take the tower (i.e. shaco, the perfect low elo solo queue champ) is free wins at low levels. i don't know how many times i've ganked at level 7 with shaco into bottom lane, got a double kill and watched my teammates die too, only to hallucinate and take the first tower and get the second tower down to 1/2 health or less by the time their jungler responds. or if i'm top lane with master yi and there's a fight at dragon i just throw highlander on and take both towers i try to take an inhib too. yeah, they're gonna send their whole team to stop me but i eat towers like cereal so even as they nuke me down i'm taking down the tower. it's that simple. sure, my teammates will bitch at me "why didn't you help noob yi so noob gg" and try to surrender right there but the fact of the matter is if i tried to run all the way across the map i'd be too late anyways, and yeah i just fed them another kill but i prevented them from pushing and i took 2.5+ towers. i'll do it every time | ||
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Brees
Marshall Islands3404 Posts
On December 08 2010 12:11 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: You don't get to 2000 by getting carried. Straight up, if you think you are competing with the top what, 50 players in this game? because they got carried, you are wrong. 1600, yeah, you can get carried to. 1700? Maybe. Anything higher than that is skill, straight up. You might think a player is terrible because they had an off game, or maybe they just failed against you a few times, but 2000 ranked players are the top 0.001% of this game. They didn't get carried there. disagree, had a 2k player on my team that was only like 60-30 that rushed manamune on sivir (rofl) his end build was like manamune/zerker greaves/infinity edge. he didnt do anything useful the entire game. oh and SkiLLY. self explanatory. how he got 2k nobody will ever know. coincidentally hes already down to 1900, durp. | ||
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