|
It's time to build an advice thread.
I'm primarily interested in questions from under 1600 players who want to know how to become 1600+ players. 1600 is not hard to achieve. You do not have to be an amazing player to get to 1600. At this point in time, GETTING TO 1600 is a reliable indicator that you understand the basics of the game. 1600 is about where you start seeing decently consistent reliable players that can play nearly every role (jungler, carry, caster, tank, support with subcategories of top solo, mid solo, and 2v2 lane). If you put a 1600+ player into a 1200 game they will tend to CARRY THE SHIT out of it just because they understand the game better.
What seperates 1600+ players from under 1600 players? What separates the really good players from 1600-1800 players? How can I improve my skills to this point?
I'm especially interested in specific advice from players on the higher end of our community. Smash, Ezpz, Spud, Aaerox, Uta, Good, Red, Shake, Neo, Yiruru, Loci, Phrost, INEPT (forgot, sorry lol), Chrispy, Shiroi, Smgzy and anyone I'm forgetting--you know if I'm talking about you.
To start the discussion off, I'd like to ask you how you got out of under 1600. What allowed you to do this? What champs did you play? How early in the season did you do this? Did you drop down below 1600 at any point? What seperated you from the players who couldn't break 1600? What advice would you give to someone who is trying to get out of 1600?
I am personally looking forward to responses from all of you, and I'm assuming many other people are, too.
|
How do you break 1600? How do I become a 1600+ player?
|
United States37500 Posts
On December 01 2010 10:54 Southlight wrote:
How do you break 1600? How do I become a 1600+ player?
Uh, probably the latter? Former seems more like a milestone than an achievement. Just talk from personal experience and what you did to get to the level you're on.
In additional, probably mention what you're currently focusing on in order to take your game to the next level.
|
the short answer to this is that up to 1400 you play carries who can singlehandedly win games (kayle for me, back when she could just insta-gib towers), 1400-1600 is Warwick time, getting out of the 1600s is all on the characters you actually feel most comfortable with (pantheon). Duo queueing helps but isn't necessary.
Knowing players and thus knowing when to hog the solos and when to let lower elos solo is important.
|
Being a Jiji smurf makes you 1900 automatically, true story.
|
On December 01 2010 11:26 red_ wrote:
Being a Jiji smurf makes you 1900 automatically, true story.
same with being a bear
|
How does a person carry in the 13/1400s with a carry? I can out farm and wreck middle and still get dominated because my team will just let me get focused every time. Especially when the enemy team has heroes like Kassadin, Rammus, Xin Zhao, etc etc who's sole purpose in life is to charge in and kill you the carry and then your team is a car without wheels, especially when that hero got fed at top or bottom and so they have just as much gold as you and an entire team who wants you dead.
I played a bunch of MF, but have recently been playing more Ashe since I can kite people better with redbuff/ice arrows and gank very effectively with ECA. Played a bit of trist when she was free, but I like wrecking my lane with MF's Q.
|
This thread seems very similar to the other one started by oberon...
|
try not to pick heroes you are absolutely not good with or don't have runes for (this is kind of obvious but I dont know how many times i've played with people who say they can pick a tank and just are absolutely bad at it). communicate with your team if you can't fill a certain role if you're 4/5th pick.
|
Well, here, I'll give you an example:
The biggest things that separate me from 1200-1400 players is my mechanics and game sense. I play a lot of champions and if you put me into a game with pretty much anyone I will have a basic understanding of how to play him. For example, last night I bought Sion and jungled for my first game and my basic understanding of the jungling role and how to build junglers allowed me to go something like 5-1-10 with him as we dominated the other team, even though I didn't really know exactly how all of his skills worked.
I also feel like my evaluation skills in teamfights is spot-on. I generally know when a fight is in our favor, when it's in their favor, and when it will depend on a factor like who engages first or the timing of the creep wave. If I'm on vent or if my team is aware of this as well, we can pull off really impressive, "risky" things like two tower dives for an ace. This effect is amplified when playing with good players. I feel like I have a good idea of when I will be able to escape from something and what I have to do to get out safely--knowing the limits of flash/ghost/tower aggro and how to bait and evade skillshot snares/grabs/stuns.
If I am in a lane, I know what to prioritize and how to do it. Should I harass? Should I focus last hitting? Should I focus on zoning? Is it safe to push the wave? Do I have time to bluepill and be back by the time the wave pushes? How many creep kills does the jungler have? Where does that put him on the map? Can I dive for a kill? Can he dive me for a kill? All of these things run through my head when I'm in the lane. I also notice that the better the player, the more farm they tend to get in lane. This isn't true for champs like Janna or Morgana but in general the player is good at last hitting, i.e. getting them when there's no reason not to and not getting them when there is a reason not to.
I know exactly why I'm building what I'm building and have different builds for different situations. My prediction skill is good. I know who's becoming dangerous, who is dangerous, when they will stop being dangerous and generally how dangerous they are. I also know when I am dangerous and try to exploit this to the fullest of my ability. Higher level play is predicated on pushing the smallest edges over other players in an attempt to make them play defensively and passively. Sometimes it's necessary to play passively. It's also important to know how to best defend against these types of tactics (zoning for example--if they're strictly zoning you and you can't get any exp, try to get them to hit you once to draw creep aggro from your wave. That will make their lane push.).
In general my map awareness isn't as solid as better players. I try to consider things like "if I was trapping, where would I be?" and know the probability that an enemy team is trapping a bush. This is something I need to work on, because sometimes I'll still chase for a kill to start a 5v5 that ends in an ace. I was listening to a stream of CLG once and they were like "don't ever chase", which kinda opened my eyes a bit. I chase too often.
In the jungle, I abuse holes in the enemy's jungle based on the paths they take. Counting creep kills and knowing jungle paths allows you to do things like steal creeps and jack buffs. When junglers have a certain amount of CS, I call out that they're probably going to gank and where the gank is likely to occur and try to be there to support it. I know when I need to gank and I know when I need to cover, and basically it's a matter of forcing myself to time it right. I still screw up jungling in high level games because of how much of a poker game jungling is.
Anyway yeah, these are the things that I'm thinking about during a game that I think set me apart from other players. Hopefully the better players will expound upon this.
|
Tbh...... what makes a good player is not just knowing everything about the game but being able to make decisions on the fly by using your understanding of the game "in the game". I feel like there are a lot of players that "know" what to do, but when the time comes to do it they either panic, choke, make the wrong decision, etc. I sometimes do this myself.... actually I do it a lot and I am not to happy about it.  Your understanding of the game isn't enough, you need to be able to use that understanding in split second decisions in game. A lot of people basically fuck up a lot and make stupid mistakes that they know that they shouldn't have made, but under the circumstances, whether from stress or whatever, just mess up. To fix this you just got to play a lot of games. Experience is key. The thing is you can't mess up. SO don't TALK the TALK, but ACT.
That's one thing that I see as an area people need to improve on. Also one thing that pisses me off especially about some higher level players is in their lack of trying to help people and telling them what to do or to put it in a nicer way make "suggestions" for people on their team. You need to take charge or people will play their own game and not the team's game. After a certain while you no longer can "carry" a team but you sure as hell can "lead" one.
Yet I am sure there are many of you who would say that many people don't listen or are just arrogant. Well first don't sound like a dick, which is tough for some of you I understand, and second show them the desire that you are playing to win. I myself have the experience of playing with some bad junglers who don't do their job of warding and such. When I tell them "GO BUY WARDS idiot" and such they don't listen and then they get pissy and such. What I find effective is to take charge as I said before, buy wards yourself even an oracle if you have the cash and show the ignorant players that you want to win and that your not trying to boss them around but trying to win. If that makes any sense lol. I hope that helps.
However the most important thing is to always have fun even while losing. If you rage and get pissed you won't get anywhere. You got to lose to win. 
|
Everyone should buy wards not just jungle.
|
On December 01 2010 13:25 mrgerry wrote:
Everyone should buy wards not just jungle.
Yea but jungle should as well. Also the fact that its solo que and you take on the position of the jungler in the beginning its mostly one of your objectives, but later into the game yes everyone should by wards.
|
United States37500 Posts
On December 01 2010 13:25 mrgerry wrote:
Everyone should buy wards not just jungle.
This.
Bottom lane Garen, you have to b and find out you have exactly enough gold for your Sunfire Cape. What do you do?
Buy that Giant Belt and Chain Mail and a few wards. That's the right play to make. Not the Sunfire. Doesn't matter if you're the only one buying wards. At the very least, it makes sure you can't be ganked.
|
Knowing where to ward is almost as important as warding in the first place. The very first ward your team buys goes at dragon. It won't help prevent the bottom lane gank but it will alert you to dragon attempts and a dragon is a HUGE advantage early game. After that it's bottom lane's grass (I like to ward the bottom team's jungle grass on the left of the river because the dragon ward provides sight of the river and the bottom ward provides sight of any attempts to get into the river grass from either side) and then usually the top grass. Keeping wards up throughout the game is something that people really tend to forget about but it's almost vital to do. ANYWHERE the enemy could hide is a good spot to ward. It's also useful to get oracles and vision wards to ward hunt and counterward large objectives like dragon and baron and sometimes buffs.
|
When the ladder first started I carried almost every game with Nasus up to 1600. 1400's was actually easier to carry because I could get my team to group up. I'm not 1600 anymore and I think a lot of it was luck. Would like to get there again.
I can tell you how to get from 1200 to 1500 since I had to do that twice now lol.
Duo queue. You and a friend take turns between jungle warwick / mid ashe. Try to end it as fast as possible. Gank a lot and don't count on your team. In fact count on them feeding and losing their lane. You have to keep the ganks rolling to keep the pressure off the baddies. Once mid game rolls around push all the lanes as hard as you can and take all the jungle in hopes that your team will get bored and try to push the nexus.
|
Oh yeah and I like what yazu said. A lot of it is innate ability to analyze the situation and almost instantly know if you should fight/run, kill golem right before enemy gets there and escape/die and give away golem.
There's a lot of players that read strategy and think they're doing the right things but end up doing it at the wrong time or place. Psychology is a huge part of the game.
|
Marshall Islands3404 Posts
basic knowledge of the game, being able to play every role, being able to work well with others
as far as 1600-2000 goes its almost entirely luck besides the tip top of the ladder. played with some absolutely horrid 2000s and some amazing 1600s.
|
I wonder what EU rating 1600 US compares to...
How to become a 1600 EU player: Read TL, buy wards, understand that Janna is a tank and Morde is not.
Learn that killing champions is not the goal of the game.
There is no need to be able to jungle.
|
Wtf do you guys do up there with no junglers? Are you just seriously way better at the 2v1 lane game than us?
|
Nah, I just let other people jungle. Only wanted to say that it is not neccessary to be good at all roles (I am a really bad jungler for some reason).
|
I don't know how I personally broke 1600. I was a top 500 player in beta and after that. I just played the game a lot and tried to see what good people were doing and see if I could do that also. I remember when I first started playing and I really wanted to get good at the game, I would just TRY everything.
Being overly agressive all the time and seeing what works and what doesn't is usually a good way for me to figure out what works and what doesn't. Every time a new champion is released, or I try to play something I haven't played before, the question is "how much aggression can I get away with?" Since I typically enjoy champions where I can be aggressive as possible (junglers and mid carry so boring).
Even now, if I see a player doing well, I take note of their items and playstyle and see if I agree with it or not. I always try to have an open mind to different playstyles if I see something working well.
I would say overall the main point in getting 1600+ is decision making and timing. Learning when you can fight and when you can't is huge. When fights happen, you need to know when your champion should enter the fight, and generally what the other champions on your team are going to be doing generally. That way you can try to predict what the outcome is going to be and try as best as you can to synergize with your allies actions.
In solo queue, you can often get into 1v1 situations and knowing when you can walk around soloing people whenever you feel like is a good judgement ability to have. Once you know you can do this, you can take the game yourself by forcing the other team into passivity.
Keys to Winning:
* Active Playstyle (try not to passive farm too much)
* Control the map(with that agression hopefully)
* Know your champion's role/timings in fights.
* Try new things to see if they work.
So many smart players will just sit in your jungle and force you to do something about it or you lose. It's quite amazing how these sorts of things can happen and just control a game completely. I hope that is coherent enough. I haven't slept yet.
|
8748 Posts
I haven't hit 1600 but I did recently go from 1400 to 1562 with like ~85-90% win rate. I'm gonna go ahead and endorse one of TL's strongest traditions by extrapolating my true rank. Yes folks, I am indeed 1600+!
I had gotten 1400 at the very start of the season by mostly playing Kayle. But recently I main Poppy whenever she is a good counterpick or when my team has no AP damage, I take Ashe when my team needs AD, and I take Leblanc when my team needs AP and I have to take a solo lane, and I take Amumu for tank/jungle. I play some others but those are my mains...
I think I've won a lot by just being good at Poppy. She doesn't rely on her team during a fight and she can often kill their carry or support (or at least make them useless for a team fight), especially when summoner spells are up. If one of my teammates won their solo lane, I'm usually the thing that ensures the win for my team. I hear a lot of people who take solo lanes saying that they win their lanes and have a good mid game, by having good cs and a positive ratio, but then their team just loses and they feel like they could do nothing more. Well, with Poppy I'm that hero from the 2v2 lane that seals the deal in the mid game. Against farmed solos and jungles, I can really have problems, and then I'm forced to kill someone of lesser importance. But if they're not farmed, I can do my job because my solo did his job earlier and it's gg. Of course it's only fair to expect my solo to win or tie the lane 50% of the time, but I think that I win almost 100% of the games when my solos don't lose their lanes. As long as I don't lose 100% of my games when my solos lose their lanes, then I go up.
As smgzy just said, knowing when to commit to a fight is very important. 1400-1600 Players are generally good enough to avoid fights when they want to. So when fights happen, it's because they are willingly going into a fight. imo you need to have a specific goal in mind if you are going to go into a fight. You should never go in and just do what you can. If you have a plan for killing or crippling someone, or sacrificing yourself for some important objective, then go for it. If you just see a convergence of players and you just hop in there, you've got problems.
This is especially true if you are leading the charge. If you are positioned behind a teammate who is advancing, it's not so bad to not have a specific plan for attack, although you should have a plan for escape (easier to do when you're not leading). You just want to see if you can support your teammate in any way, without ever endangering yourself too much. Problems occur when the guy in front decides to commit based on support he's expecting from his teammates. Obviously sometimes this is good, especially if the guy leading is your tank, but in general it's something to avoid. The more organization your team seems to have, the more you can ignore this rule. But when some ganking and team fighting first starts in mid game, it's usually a mess and you should follow this rule.
Map awareness in the heat of a battle. If you are expecting teammate support, keep checking the minimap to make sure it's coming. Sometimes people have a million chances to retreat but the last time they looked at the minimap was 10 seconds ago and so they still think teammates are coming. Then they die and they're like "where is my team" but the fact is they stayed committed even when they clearly had the information that their team in fact wasn't going to come. The fact is that some champs are really easy to fight with for a 1400+ player and people give too much attention to something they've done 1000 times. Sometimes you can fight out of the corner of your eye and keep your main focus on the rest of your team. Realize when there's nothing for you to do during a split second of a battle and use that time to re-acquaint yourself with your surroundings.
Know when your allies have ults up. I'm still like O.O when people don't know that there are green dots at the top left indicating ults. If you suddenly get forced into a fight and your decision to attack or retreat hinges on whether your teammate has his ult up, then please look and know.
|
Just curious. What is the right response when the bot duo lane is feeding? If the solos feed, yeah then can get a lane switch no biggie. But when duo lane is like 0-4 5 mins in, what do you do? Especially if they are say, half-health level 4s vs levels 6s. But if ganks don't work/fail, you still need to do something. Solo feeds, at most u lose the advantage from having a solo. Duo lane feeds, how can u prevent them into turning into useless sacks of gold for the enemy team?
|
Since it seems there aren't many questions yet I'll throw one out.
Can you explain counterpicks and give some examples?
|
On December 02 2010 01:09 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
Map awareness in the heat of a battle. If you are expecting teammate support, keep checking the minimap to make sure it's coming. Sometimes people have a million chances to retreat but the last time they looked at the minimap was 10 seconds ago and so they still think teammates are coming. Then they die and they're like "where is my team" but the fact is they stayed committed even when they clearly had the information that their team in fact wasn't going to come. The fact is that some champs are really easy to fight with for a 1400+ player and people give too much attention to something they've done 1000 times. Sometimes you can fight out of the corner of your eye and keep your main focus on the rest of your team. Realize when there's nothing for you to do during a split second of a battle and use that time to re-acquaint yourself with your surroundings.
I really like this and I'm going to try and do it more often. Often times lots of my deaths are from expecting an ally to comp help when I don't realize they got ambushed by garen on their way.
|
On December 02 2010 01:29 Advocado wrote:
Since it seems there aren't many questions yet I'll throw one out.
Can you explain counterpicks and give some examples?
Some champs excel against certain champs and team compositions due to their skillsets, thereby giving your team an advantage over the other team. Basically a counterpick is picking a champ that can quickly and easily neutralize one or more of the enemy team's champs. Here's a really obvious example: if the other team picks an AP-heavy composition (ie, they pick champs that are squishy and mass AP), Veigar is a great counterpick because he smokes AP champs with his ultimate. In a teamfight, the Veigar will vaporize at least one of the enemy AP champs at the start of the fight, essentially turning the battle into a 5v4.
|
knowing when to fight is good and all, but unless you are the tank, alot of the time you have very little say in when your team fights when you are with a bunch of baddies who dont listen and dont realize that teamfighting is not the only option,
|
better counter pick is the FotM Malphite. Most games consist of protecting a ranged carry and Malphite can very easily put a lot of pressure on that player.
I find it very interesting that Tyler's go to is Poppy. A lot of games revolve around one player getting fed early on and milking that advantage to gain a huge lead. Poppy can really shut down that person ^_^
How can I convince my team to dragon or baron? There are games where both teams will be up, but they'll have 2-3 players farming a wave at the bottom and I've set up wards to see if people are coming, but my team absolutely refuses to baron because "they're all alive." There's also games where the enemies will all just jump on dragon or they'll have 3-4 players ganking top and my team just doesn't know what to do. Surely you take dragon when your top is getting ganked by 4 players and try to prevent the enemy from getting it whenever they try.
When is it better to take an inhib or a baron? Say my team just aced the enemy team or they have one up and we've still got 3-5 people (who can reasonably take baron). Should we go for that inhib or take the baron? A lot of games a decision will be made by which is closer or who moves in which direction, but I always think Baron is better because it gives more gold to the team and guarantees victory in the next fight pretty much allowing you take get an even bigger advantage.
|
Again, it comes down to judgment. If the choice is "they're aced and we have enough time to safely do either, but not both, and be back at our base before they're up" then my choice is almost always the inhibitor, but there are various reasons why you should take baron first, and they're game-dependent. If you had a hard time in that last fight and some stupid positioning or miracle let you win it (Blitz grabbed Galio/Amumu and they dropped their ult on the whole team), or if you're unlikely to win the next fight for whatever reason, take the inhib. If it was close, but you edged them out because of superior composition or better farm/items/play, take baron. If by "we can take their inhib" you mean "we can take the towers in the lane and get their inhib", get the inhib. If there are no towers at the inhibitor, I'm more likely to want to get baron, because then you can get the mid creeps pushing, move to bottom/top and swing to the mid when your creep wave is there.
I prefer to take an open inhibitor in almost every case, but there are reasons to leave it up--one of them being that it forces them to defend a weak point in their base, tying them down to whatever lane is open. The mid inhibitor is also about 2x as valuable as the side inhibitors, and the same goes for the mid towers, so keep that in mind as well. Never let your mid lane towers fall if you can avoid it, especially not to trade for something like side towers or a couple of kills.
|
Also if you can't convince your team to dragon or baron then it's probably not completely obvious that you can finish it without it being jacked/you getting jumped. "They're all alive" is a totally legitimate reason NOT to dragon/baron, but it really comes down to situation. Even if there's no way the enemy team can get there in time to stop you from taking it, if they can get there in time to meet you as you're finishing it sometimes it's worse for you than not taking it. Unless I'm running oracles and have a ton of wards and I'm warwick with bloodrazors and a champ that can help me take baron FAST... well, you're going to be hard-pressed to convince me to do it. Baron jacks are one of the biggest game-swinging events that can happen in a game and I HATE to have one or two champions come up to me while I'm doing dragon and harass/threaten my team while their team runs to engage us. They're threatening the jack as well as a kill and the disruption often takes people off of baron to the point that it's still up when the 5v5 starts. It's dangerous.
Usually the best way to get people to baron is to make it completely obvious that it's the best choice to take without any input from yourself other than a "baron?" or a ping. If more than one player disagrees, there's a reason for it.
|
Really educational thread!
This is why TL is one of the best place to be to learn how to play, especially for SC BW & SCII :D
Keep up the tips, they're a great read.
P.S. How can Tyler be a 1.6k + and be A in SC at the same time T_T
|
Pantheon / Gragas also is a counter pick to ranged carries. Teemo counters Ashe, Trynd, and Yi and to a lesser extent the other DPS carries. Zilean counters Mordekaiser. Janna counters AoE comps. There are others, but off the top of my head those are the ones that stick out.
|
On December 02 2010 01:12 cascades wrote:
Just curious. What is the right response when the bot duo lane is feeding? If the solos feed, yeah then can get a lane switch no biggie. But when duo lane is like 0-4 5 mins in, what do you do? Especially if they are say, half-health level 4s vs levels 6s. But if ganks don't work/fail, you still need to do something. Solo feeds, at most u lose the advantage from having a solo. Duo lane feeds, how can u prevent them into turning into useless sacks of gold for the enemy team?
THIS. I'd say 4 out of 5 games I have at least one of the sidelines feeding horribly. Is it just impossible to win when there's always 2 people feeding every game?
|
On December 02 2010 23:33 Darkchylde wrote:
Pantheon / Gragas also is a counter pick to ranged carries. Teemo counters Ashe, Trynd, and Yi and to a lesser extent the other DPS carries. Zilean counters Mordekaiser. Janna counters AoE comps. There are others, but off the top of my head those are the ones that stick out.
Pantheon is out of counterpick status and into ban him because he's too good status imo. I hardly even play him and I'm throwing up like 18-4 scores on him in lane/jungle.
|
On December 02 2010 23:33 Darkchylde wrote:
Pantheon / Gragas also is a counter pick to ranged carries. Teemo counters Ashe, Trynd, and Yi and to a lesser extent the other DPS carries. Zilean counters Mordekaiser. Janna counters AoE comps. There are others, but off the top of my head those are the ones that stick out.
How's Zilean an counterpick to Mordekaiser?
|
Mordekaiser only is relevant if he can get a Ghost somewhat early in the fight. Morde ult + Zil ult = no Ghost.
|
How does Teemo counter DPS classes? Blind only lasts a couple seconds and you could get the same thing from any champion with exhaust...Seems more useful to have the latter along with some sort of stun or snare if they're melee.
That Zilean counter-picking idea is pretty cool though. Are there any other counters like that ^_^
|
Gangplank is a little known counter to AoE disable initiators. Simply respond to that Amumu ult with a gangplank ult right on top of it and the opposing team will be a lot more hesitant to jump on your team.
|
On December 03 2010 03:06 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
How does Teemo counter DPS classes? Blind only lasts a couple seconds and you could get the same thing from any champion with exhaust...Seems more useful to have the latter along with some sort of stun or snare if they're melee.
That Zilean counter-picking idea is pretty cool though. Are there any other counters like that ^_^
He can slow and blind constantly so no DPS can catch him and if they do they can rarely hit him for long. Plus his shrooms give your team map awareness for free. ;o
|
On December 03 2010 03:39 BlackPaladin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 03:06 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
How does Teemo counter DPS classes? Blind only lasts a couple seconds and you could get the same thing from any champion with exhaust...Seems more useful to have the latter along with some sort of stun or snare if they're melee.
That Zilean counter-picking idea is pretty cool though. Are there any other counters like that ^_^ He can slow and blind constantly so no DPS can catch him and if they do they can rarely hit him for long. Plus his shrooms give your team map awareness for free. ;o teemo slows? i guess you're talking mallet which is a terrible item in 90% of situations (including this one). sion stuns for almost as long as teemo blinds. i honestly believe teemo is the single most useless hero in the game.
also, i haven't played in a while but last i checked zilean ult didn't stop mordekaiser ult. maybe they patched it who knows.
|
Dat shroom
Also teemo is mad good in top lane if it's not vs like Gragas/Malphite/Mordekaiser/Cho/Panth... oh, okay, you're right.
|
Marshall Islands3404 Posts
well played teemo is pretty good now, until other team gets oracle. then you are pretty useless
|
Protheon seems very strong at the moment. Finding a champion that not many people play and getting good at him/her is a good idea. That's what I did with Udyr, and am currently working on with a few others. I planned on doing that with solo-top Malphite.. but after a few days of stomping, people caught on. Sivir and Tristana are good choices for now as are Shaco and Zilean.. Kennen and Anivia too.. lots to choose from :D Goodluck.
|
On December 03 2010 04:03 L0CUST. wrote:
Protheon seems very strong at the moment. Finding a champion that not many people play and getting good at him/her is a good idea. That's what I did with Udyr, and am currently working on with a few others. I planned on doing that with solo-top Malphite.. but after a few days of stomping, people caught on. Sivir and Tristana are good choices for now as are Shaco and Zilean.. Kennen and Anivia too.. lots to choose from :D Goodluck. katarina nidalee
|
On December 03 2010 03:06 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
How does Teemo counter DPS classes? Blind only lasts a couple seconds and you could get the same thing from any champion with exhaust...Seems more useful to have the latter along with some sort of stun or snare if they're melee.
That Zilean counter-picking idea is pretty cool though. Are there any other counters like that ^_^
Well, the ones I mentioned rely mostly on their auto's to do DPS and yes exhaust does the same thing, blind as a skill is what makes Teemo unique and really good. Plus it's on a relatively low-CD so you can use 2-3 times a fight.
|
On December 03 2010 04:03 L0CUST. wrote:
Protheon seems very strong at the moment. Finding a champion that not many people play and getting good at him/her is a good idea. That's what I did with Udyr, and am currently working on with a few others. I planned on doing that with solo-top Malphite.. but after a few days of stomping, people caught on. Sivir and Tristana are good choices for now as are Shaco and Zilean.. Kennen and Anivia too.. lots to choose from :D Goodluck.
This is the part where I attempt to bait a post from you in the Shaco thread.
|
On December 03 2010 04:03 L0CUST. wrote:
Protheon seems very strong at the moment. Finding a champion that not many people play and getting good at him/her is a good idea. That's what I did with Udyr, and am currently working on with a few others. I planned on doing that with solo-top Malphite.. but after a few days of stomping, people caught on. Sivir and Tristana are good choices for now as are Shaco and Zilean.. Kennen and Anivia too.. lots to choose from :D Goodluck.
Pantheon will be the new flavor of the month in a week tops.
I truly love the Zilean counter pick to morde though. It's just so funny seeing that person revive and then they have a 5v4 because Morde is completely useless. Since Morde appears to dominate a lot of my low ELO games I might just play Zilean exclusively, especially when you have people trying out Irelia and stuff.
|
Can't be flavor of the month if he's banned in every game...
|
On December 03 2010 15:25 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
Can't be flavor of the month if he's banned in every game...
Yep he gets banned in every game so far. He will probably get nerfed... the only problem is Riot won't revert back the q nerf so if they do nerf him he is going to the shit bucket? But who really knows.
|
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/lALpS.jpg)
So, this is the difference between 1600s and 1200s when it's 4v5. Basically, you should be able to do this when you queue with a bunch of noobs.
[edit] The "no class" thing was something they said after I jumped their inhibitor when they went to baron before we aced for the win. [/edit]
|
On December 03 2010 04:51 Odds wrote:
This is the part where I attempt to bait a post from you in the Shaco thread.
I think Shaco is the best champion to teach a player offensive jungling, not because he is so good at it.. mainly because of his nerfs. Deceive is a long enough cooldown that you really only get to use it once, if the enemy is on you.. so you have to learn all the different paths enemies could take to get to you, and learn to guess where the enemy will move next. Also, learning to jungle offensively is a very defining skill for a jungler.. it means you not only know your jungle paths, you also know enemy jungle paths and can figure out where the enemy will want to go next 
This may change when flash is taken out and ganking is viable.. but for now the best way to control the game is to shutdown the enemy jungler by stealing their buffs/creeps as much as possible, and ignore all the cries for ganks in lanes... unless you see a count gank opportunity! :D which can really turn the game in your team's favor. Lastly. Bottom lane should ward dragon early on, so the jungler is free to roam the map without worrying if dragon is being cheesed.
|
On December 03 2010 19:16 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:So, this is the difference between 1600s and 1200s when it's 4v5. Basically, you should be able to do this when you queue with a bunch of noobs. [edit] The "no class" thing was something they said after I jumped their inhibitor when they went to baron before we aced for the win. [/edit]
What is with their Ashe's build? Did they really buy in that order?
|
I mean, they were probably ranked like 1300. I see people in 1600 doing stuff like that. Maybe she was going for the manamune/warmogs/atmas trifecta lol.
|
On December 04 2010 00:58 L0CUST. wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 04:51 Odds wrote:
This is the part where I attempt to bait a post from you in the Shaco thread. I think Shaco is the best champion to teach a player offensive jungling, not because he is so good at it.. mainly because of his nerfs. Deceive is a long enough cooldown that you really only get to use it once, if the enemy is on you.. so you have to learn all the different paths enemies could take to get to you, and learn to guess where the enemy will move next. Also, learning to jungle offensively is a very defining skill for a jungler.. it means you not only know your jungle paths, you also know enemy jungle paths and can figure out where the enemy will want to go next This may change when flash is taken out and ganking is viable.. but for now the best way to control the game is to shutdown the enemy jungler by stealing their buffs/creeps as much as possible, and ignore all the cries for ganks in lanes... unless you see a count gank opportunity! :D which can really turn the game in your team's favor. Lastly. Bottom lane should ward dragon early on, so the jungler is free to roam the map without worrying if dragon is being cheesed.
lately ive had MAD success getting away with shaco, just seems like everytime I know how to dodge them or how to make it look like I went that way
fx an irelia chased me away from 2. mid lane tower, i ran back at the lane and decived back on the lane and walked to the wraith bush, put a jitb and irelia procced the jitb just before i was recalled
Shaco is suuuuper fun, since he can be a threat to carries without that much damage, and still having mad map control
|
On December 04 2010 00:58 L0CUST. wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 04:51 Odds wrote:
This is the part where I attempt to bait a post from you in the Shaco thread. I think Shaco is the best champion to teach a player offensive jungling, not because he is so good at it.. mainly because of his nerfs. Deceive is a long enough cooldown that you really only get to use it once, if the enemy is on you.. so you have to learn all the different paths enemies could take to get to you, and learn to guess where the enemy will move next. Also, learning to jungle offensively is a very defining skill for a jungler.. it means you not only know your jungle paths, you also know enemy jungle paths and can figure out where the enemy will want to go next This may change when flash is taken out and ganking is viable.. but for now the best way to control the game is to shutdown the enemy jungler by stealing their buffs/creeps as much as possible, and ignore all the cries for ganks in lanes... unless you see a count gank opportunity! :D which can really turn the game in your team's favor. Lastly. Bottom lane should ward dragon early on, so the jungler is free to roam the map without worrying if dragon is being cheesed.
Thanks a lot, I will practice more.
On December 03 2010 03:44 redtooth wrote: i honestly believe teemo is the single most useless hero in the game.
I'm going to tentatively disagree, despite having no doubt a good deal less experience. I think Teemo's got a bunch of things working in his favor.
-Blinding Shot is (from what i've seen) basically on par with Pantheon's pre-patch Q, but it scales better.
-He's one of the hardest heroes in the game (barring Shaco, Sivir, and Kass) to chase, allowing him to get away with some risky plays.
-He can function effectively as either physical or magical DPS, or a hybrid pretty effectively in a way that many champions cannot or a combination of both. Lets him adapt to the enemy team's MR/Armor situation
That's all obvious. I think probably one of his most underestimated aspects is his ability to control the map, and in particular, the Dragon. When I lane mid as Teemo, I typically put the vast majority of my mushrooms in the southeast portion of the lane, as well as in the bushes and in the area between mid lane and dragon-- as this area appears to be the primary highway for both teams as they attempt to control dragon, and the area where fights over it take place. When your team forces a fight at Dragon (or later, Baron), the mushrooms have 4 functions:
- an extremely effective early warning system,
- a form of rather obnoxious attrition, making the enemies much less likely to engage (because they're low) and also obviously less likely to win a fight, should one occur
-the slow attached to the mushrooms allows your team a few extra precious seconds to finish killing the dragon, and can also put the enemy team out of position if someone engages too early while his teammates are slowed.
-If you win the fight, the enemies typically have a much harder time getting away.
Just some thoughts.
|
On December 04 2010 07:46 Odds wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 00:58 L0CUST. wrote:On December 03 2010 04:51 Odds wrote:
This is the part where I attempt to bait a post from you in the Shaco thread. I think Shaco is the best champion to teach a player offensive jungling, not because he is so good at it.. mainly because of his nerfs. Deceive is a long enough cooldown that you really only get to use it once, if the enemy is on you.. so you have to learn all the different paths enemies could take to get to you, and learn to guess where the enemy will move next. Also, learning to jungle offensively is a very defining skill for a jungler.. it means you not only know your jungle paths, you also know enemy jungle paths and can figure out where the enemy will want to go next This may change when flash is taken out and ganking is viable.. but for now the best way to control the game is to shutdown the enemy jungler by stealing their buffs/creeps as much as possible, and ignore all the cries for ganks in lanes... unless you see a count gank opportunity! :D which can really turn the game in your team's favor. Lastly. Bottom lane should ward dragon early on, so the jungler is free to roam the map without worrying if dragon is being cheesed. Thanks a lot, I will practice more. Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 03:44 redtooth wrote: i honestly believe teemo is the single most useless hero in the game. I'm going to tentatively disagree, despite having no doubt a good deal less experience. I think Teemo's got a bunch of things working in his favor. -Blinding Shot is (from what i've seen) basically on par with Pantheon's pre-patch Q, but it scales better. -He's one of the hardest heroes in the game (barring Shaco, Sivir, and Kass) to chase, allowing him to get away with some risky plays. -He can function effectively as either physical or magical DPS, or a hybrid pretty effectively in a way that many champions cannot or a combination of both. Lets him adapt to the enemy team's MR/Armor situation That's all obvious. I think probably one of his most underestimated aspects is his ability to control the map, and in particular, the Dragon. When I lane mid as Teemo, I typically put the vast majority of my mushrooms in the southeast portion of the lane, as well as in the bushes and in the area between mid lane and dragon-- as this area appears to be the primary highway for both teams as they attempt to control dragon, and the area where fights over it take place. When your team forces a fight at Dragon (or later, Baron), the mushrooms have 4 functions: - an extremely effective early warning system, - a form of rather obnoxious attrition, making the enemies much less likely to engage (because they're low) and also obviously less likely to win a fight, should one occur -the slow attached to the mushrooms allows your team a few extra precious seconds to finish killing the dragon, and can also put the enemy team out of position if someone engages too early while his teammates are slowed. -If you win the fight, the enemies typically have a much harder time getting away. Just some thoughts.
you forgot anivia for hardest champions, teemo is still a very situational champion to pick and he has virtually no skill synergy
|
Extraordinary movement speed + 3 kiting abilities = no skill synergy now?
|
On December 04 2010 07:46 Odds wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 03:44 redtooth wrote: i honestly believe teemo is the single most useless hero in the game. I'm going to tentatively disagree, despite having no doubt a good deal less experience. I think Teemo's got a bunch of things working in his favor. -Blinding Shot is (from what i've seen) basically on par with Pantheon's pre-patch Q, but it scales better. -He's one of the hardest heroes in the game (barring Shaco, Sivir, and Kass) to chase, allowing him to get away with some risky plays. -He can function effectively as either physical or magical DPS, or a hybrid pretty effectively in a way that many champions cannot or a combination of both. Lets him adapt to the enemy team's MR/Armor situation That's all obvious. I think probably one of his most underestimated aspects is his ability to control the map, and in particular, the Dragon. When I lane mid as Teemo, I typically put the vast majority of my mushrooms in the southeast portion of the lane, as well as in the bushes and in the area between mid lane and dragon-- as this area appears to be the primary highway for both teams as they attempt to control dragon, and the area where fights over it take place. When your team forces a fight at Dragon (or later, Baron), the mushrooms have 4 functions: - an extremely effective early warning system, - a form of rather obnoxious attrition, making the enemies much less likely to engage (because they're low) and also obviously less likely to win a fight, should one occur -the slow attached to the mushrooms allows your team a few extra precious seconds to finish killing the dragon, and can also put the enemy team out of position if someone engages too early while his teammates are slowed. -If you win the fight, the enemies typically have a much harder time getting away. =/ i respect your disagreement but stand by my point.
- blinding shot may have good numbers but doesn't scale. so unless you're going AP teemo you are stuck at base skill damage. it's just as good (if that) as any damaging stun.
- well if he doesn't get hit that is. but rarely are you going to preempt a chase and if you do usually you would have gotten away whether you had the MS or not. in most laning situations (from my experience) the speed boost is just a mana sink as it just gets auto canceled. it's useless in ganking situations since most ganks are started with an attack.
- sorry but this one is pure wrong. teemo's options branch in such a way that it's not viable to choose one ingame. you gotta prepare for it with runes and you can't build hybrid in the way of items. a teemo with a BT and rylais is a useless (yet somehow farmed) teemo.
- also you're giving shroom WAY too much credit. the time spent running around planting shrooms is time being wasted pushing lanes or farming. ideally they will warn and stop fleeing enemies and give precious seconds to get dragon but that's being blindly optimistic. a lot of other skills serve the same role and so much more.
some cons to teemo to point out:
- he sucks in laning (q harass is overrated) and dies in solos.
- he is super super super squishy.
- he has little utility in teamfights outside of occasionally disabling their auto-attacking carry. even then stuns are better.
- his ult is useless in winning teamfights (MAYBE do better in cleanup but that doesn't matter when they rout you).
i've been wrong before on a lot of heroes but until an amazing teemo comes along i won't be convinced. so for now his only role in this game is to troll your team when you want a guaranteed loss.
|
On December 04 2010 20:45 redtooth wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 07:46 Odds wrote:On December 03 2010 03:44 redtooth wrote: i honestly believe teemo is the single most useless hero in the game. I'm going to tentatively disagree, despite having no doubt a good deal less experience. I think Teemo's got a bunch of things working in his favor. -Blinding Shot is (from what i've seen) basically on par with Pantheon's pre-patch Q, but it scales better. -He's one of the hardest heroes in the game (barring Shaco, Sivir, and Kass) to chase, allowing him to get away with some risky plays. -He can function effectively as either physical or magical DPS, or a hybrid pretty effectively in a way that many champions cannot or a combination of both. Lets him adapt to the enemy team's MR/Armor situation That's all obvious. I think probably one of his most underestimated aspects is his ability to control the map, and in particular, the Dragon. When I lane mid as Teemo, I typically put the vast majority of my mushrooms in the southeast portion of the lane, as well as in the bushes and in the area between mid lane and dragon-- as this area appears to be the primary highway for both teams as they attempt to control dragon, and the area where fights over it take place. When your team forces a fight at Dragon (or later, Baron), the mushrooms have 4 functions: - an extremely effective early warning system, - a form of rather obnoxious attrition, making the enemies much less likely to engage (because they're low) and also obviously less likely to win a fight, should one occur -the slow attached to the mushrooms allows your team a few extra precious seconds to finish killing the dragon, and can also put the enemy team out of position if someone engages too early while his teammates are slowed. -If you win the fight, the enemies typically have a much harder time getting away. =/ i respect your disagreement but stand by my point. - blinding shot may have good numbers but doesn't scale. so unless you're going AP teemo you are stuck at base skill damage. it's just as good (if that) as any damaging stun. - well if he doesn't get hit that is. but rarely are you going to preempt a chase and if you do usually you would have gotten away whether you had the MS or not. in most laning situations (from my experience) the speed boost is just a mana sink as it just gets auto canceled. it's useless in ganking situations since most ganks are started with an attack. - sorry but this one is pure wrong. teemo's options branch in such a way that it's not viable to choose one ingame. you gotta prepare for it with runes and you can't build hybrid in the way of items. a teemo with a BT and rylais is a useless (yet somehow farmed) teemo. - also you're giving shroom WAY too much credit. the time spent running around planting shrooms is time being wasted pushing lanes or farming. ideally they will warn and stop fleeing enemies and give precious seconds to get dragon but that's being blindly optimistic. a lot of other skills serve the same role and so much more. some cons to teemo to point out: - he sucks in laning (q harass is overrated) and dies in solos. - he is super super super squishy. - he has little utility in teamfights outside of occasionally disabling their auto-attacking carry. even then stuns are better. - his ult is useless in winning teamfights (MAYBE do better in cleanup but that doesn't matter when they rout you). i've been wrong before on a lot of heroes but until an amazing teemo comes along i won't be convinced. so for now his only role in this game is to troll your team when you want a guaranteed loss.
i dont have anything to say about the point's you've made (i'm not a teemo player, nor am i in the upper echelons of play) but i do kno the rain man seems to do quite well with teemo
|
On December 04 2010 20:45 redtooth wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 07:46 Odds wrote:On December 03 2010 03:44 redtooth wrote: i honestly believe teemo is the single most useless hero in the game. I'm going to tentatively disagree, despite having no doubt a good deal less experience. I think Teemo's got a bunch of things working in his favor. -Blinding Shot is (from what i've seen) basically on par with Pantheon's pre-patch Q, but it scales better. -He's one of the hardest heroes in the game (barring Shaco, Sivir, and Kass) to chase, allowing him to get away with some risky plays. -He can function effectively as either physical or magical DPS, or a hybrid pretty effectively in a way that many champions cannot or a combination of both. Lets him adapt to the enemy team's MR/Armor situation That's all obvious. I think probably one of his most underestimated aspects is his ability to control the map, and in particular, the Dragon. When I lane mid as Teemo, I typically put the vast majority of my mushrooms in the southeast portion of the lane, as well as in the bushes and in the area between mid lane and dragon-- as this area appears to be the primary highway for both teams as they attempt to control dragon, and the area where fights over it take place. When your team forces a fight at Dragon (or later, Baron), the mushrooms have 4 functions: - an extremely effective early warning system, - a form of rather obnoxious attrition, making the enemies much less likely to engage (because they're low) and also obviously less likely to win a fight, should one occur -the slow attached to the mushrooms allows your team a few extra precious seconds to finish killing the dragon, and can also put the enemy team out of position if someone engages too early while his teammates are slowed. -If you win the fight, the enemies typically have a much harder time getting away. =/ i respect your disagreement but stand by my point. - blinding shot may have good numbers but doesn't scale. so unless you're going AP teemo you are stuck at base skill damage. it's just as good (if that) as any damaging stun. - well if he doesn't get hit that is. but rarely are you going to preempt a chase and if you do usually you would have gotten away whether you had the MS or not. in most laning situations (from my experience) the speed boost is just a mana sink as it just gets auto canceled. it's useless in ganking situations since most ganks are started with an attack. - sorry but this one is pure wrong. teemo's options branch in such a way that it's not viable to choose one ingame. you gotta prepare for it with runes and you can't build hybrid in the way of items. a teemo with a BT and rylais is a useless (yet somehow farmed) teemo. - also you're giving shroom WAY too much credit. the time spent running around planting shrooms is time being wasted pushing lanes or farming. ideally they will warn and stop fleeing enemies and give precious seconds to get dragon but that's being blindly optimistic. a lot of other skills serve the same role and so much more. some cons to teemo to point out: - he sucks in laning (q harass is overrated) and dies in solos. - he is super super super squishy. - he has little utility in teamfights outside of occasionally disabling their auto-attacking carry. even then stuns are better. - his ult is useless in winning teamfights (MAYBE do better in cleanup but that doesn't matter when they rout you). i've been wrong before on a lot of heroes but until an amazing teemo comes along i won't be convinced. so for now his only role in this game is to troll your team when you want a guaranteed loss.
WRA, were you around for the massive Teemo buff? He's pretty ridiculous in lane now (E hits like a ton of bricks), his mushrooms build like Corki's missiles, etc. If you haven't played him since you came back, you really should...
|
Yeah, I actually disagree with your evaluation of Teemo too. If it wasn't for the Cho/Gragas/Malphite/Mordekaiser top trend that we have right now he would be the dominant force in the top lane IMO.
|
On December 05 2010 02:43 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
Yeah, I actually disagree with your evaluation of Teemo too. If it wasn't for the Cho/Gragas/Malphite/Mordekaiser top trend that we have right now he would be the dominant force in the top lane IMO.
Doesn't Teemo destroy Morde? I play neither of them, but it seems like he can take E at level 1 and just smash through Morde's shield without issue.
|
On December 05 2010 05:14 oberon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 02:43 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
Yeah, I actually disagree with your evaluation of Teemo too. If it wasn't for the Cho/Gragas/Malphite/Mordekaiser top trend that we have right now he would be the dominant force in the top lane IMO. Doesn't Teemo destroy Morde? I play neither of them, but it seems like he can take E at level 1 and just smash through Morde's shield without issue.
No because teemo can't deal with a full creep wave when trying to smash mord's face in. Inevitably all mord has to do is kill the creep wave and back off and he'll never lose 1v1
|
On December 05 2010 00:19 oberon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 20:45 redtooth wrote:On December 04 2010 07:46 Odds wrote:On December 03 2010 03:44 redtooth wrote: i honestly believe teemo is the single most useless hero in the game. I'm going to tentatively disagree, despite having no doubt a good deal less experience. I think Teemo's got a bunch of things working in his favor. -Blinding Shot is (from what i've seen) basically on par with Pantheon's pre-patch Q, but it scales better. -He's one of the hardest heroes in the game (barring Shaco, Sivir, and Kass) to chase, allowing him to get away with some risky plays. -He can function effectively as either physical or magical DPS, or a hybrid pretty effectively in a way that many champions cannot or a combination of both. Lets him adapt to the enemy team's MR/Armor situation That's all obvious. I think probably one of his most underestimated aspects is his ability to control the map, and in particular, the Dragon. When I lane mid as Teemo, I typically put the vast majority of my mushrooms in the southeast portion of the lane, as well as in the bushes and in the area between mid lane and dragon-- as this area appears to be the primary highway for both teams as they attempt to control dragon, and the area where fights over it take place. When your team forces a fight at Dragon (or later, Baron), the mushrooms have 4 functions: - an extremely effective early warning system, - a form of rather obnoxious attrition, making the enemies much less likely to engage (because they're low) and also obviously less likely to win a fight, should one occur -the slow attached to the mushrooms allows your team a few extra precious seconds to finish killing the dragon, and can also put the enemy team out of position if someone engages too early while his teammates are slowed. -If you win the fight, the enemies typically have a much harder time getting away. =/ i respect your disagreement but stand by my point. - blinding shot may have good numbers but doesn't scale. so unless you're going AP teemo you are stuck at base skill damage. it's just as good (if that) as any damaging stun. - well if he doesn't get hit that is. but rarely are you going to preempt a chase and if you do usually you would have gotten away whether you had the MS or not. in most laning situations (from my experience) the speed boost is just a mana sink as it just gets auto canceled. it's useless in ganking situations since most ganks are started with an attack. - sorry but this one is pure wrong. teemo's options branch in such a way that it's not viable to choose one ingame. you gotta prepare for it with runes and you can't build hybrid in the way of items. a teemo with a BT and rylais is a useless (yet somehow farmed) teemo. - also you're giving shroom WAY too much credit. the time spent running around planting shrooms is time being wasted pushing lanes or farming. ideally they will warn and stop fleeing enemies and give precious seconds to get dragon but that's being blindly optimistic. a lot of other skills serve the same role and so much more. some cons to teemo to point out: - he sucks in laning (q harass is overrated) and dies in solos. - he is super super super squishy. - he has little utility in teamfights outside of occasionally disabling their auto-attacking carry. even then stuns are better. - his ult is useless in winning teamfights (MAYBE do better in cleanup but that doesn't matter when they rout you). i've been wrong before on a lot of heroes but until an amazing teemo comes along i won't be convinced. so for now his only role in this game is to troll your team when you want a guaranteed loss. WRA, were you around for the massive Teemo buff? He's pretty ridiculous in lane now (E hits like a ton of bricks), his mushrooms build like Corki's missiles, etc. If you haven't played him since you came back, you really should...
Yea Teemo's laning is actually really good. Only problem is he can't deal with the FOTM gragas/cho/malph tanks like 5hit said. Also, since shrooms build up to 3 he can push a lane, leave to plant 3 shrooms and be back in lane without missing much exp.
I don't think he's a great champion but he's not as bad as you make him out to be, at least imoimoimo.
|
On December 04 2010 20:45 redtooth wrote:
=/ i respect your disagreement but stand by my point.
And I respect yours. :3 Perhaps there are a few things that you haven't considered, however. I'm not sure.
On December 04 2010 20:45 redtooth wrote:
1. blinding shot may have good numbers but doesn't scale. so unless you're going AP teemo you are stuck at base skill damage. it's just as good (if that) as any damaging stun.
2. well if he doesn't get hit that is. but rarely are you going to preempt a chase and if you do usually you would have gotten away whether you had the MS or not. in most laning situations (from my experience) the speed boost is just a mana sink as it just gets auto canceled. it's useless in ganking situations since most ganks are started with an attack.
3. sorry but this one is pure wrong. teemo's options branch in such a way that it's not viable to choose one ingame. you gotta prepare for it with runes and you can't build hybrid in the way of items. a teemo with a BT and rylais is a useless (yet somehow farmed) teemo.
4. also you're giving shroom WAY too much credit. the time spent running around planting shrooms is time being wasted pushing lanes or farming. ideally they will warn and stop fleeing enemies and give precious seconds to get dragon but that's being blindly optimistic. a lot of other skills serve the same role and so much more.
1. I explain this below, but I basically default AP Teemo until there appears to be a need for a change. I like Blinding Shot as a harass skill for 2 reasons:
-It synergizes with W (assuming your lane is safe) and lets you put on a huge amount of constant pressure
-Autoattack-Q-Autoattack hurts a lot and comes out very quickly. Your opponent (barring something like Pantheon) will almost always come out negative in both health and mana should he trade blows with you, and if you feel safe enough to have W active, it is difficult to avoid.
2. I think that if you have the speed boost active in the lane (unless you feel safe and are able to use it to harass heavily), you're doing it wrong. I prefer to save it until the gank comes, and then zoom outta there. Typically they blow their CC sequentially and you have some health left for which they need to autoattack you or whatever- that's the time to hit W.
3. You can. My runes are AP (I may have to set up an AD page as well to adapt to teams that already have mostly AP, but I digress), but that does not make AD completely ineffective. Every game I start out:
-Doran's Ring/HP
-Shoes
-Malady
I will usually start building a BR because of its incredible synergy with Teemo's E, Malady, and my Magic Pen runes. If I finish it and enemies are still not stacking MR, I will build sorc boots (or mercs depending on the situation) and more AS+AP/magic damage items (Nashor's, SotD, etc). If I see more than 2 enemies with a significant amount of MR, I can hang onto the bow, build merc treads, get a B.F. sword and turn the bow into a LW.
My conception of 'AP' teemo is not that you actually stack AP- because he has kinda bad ratios. Just get magic pen and attack speed, and you will do plenty of magic damage with the ability to transition into physical if you have to.
4. As I said, I don't 'run around and place shrooms', ever wasting more than a couple seconds.
-They are all concentrated around my current position- for the first while obviously, in the lane. Not only do they help keep me safe (and thus synergize with Q and W) to harass, but they come in pretty handy should a gank->countergank or a dragon attempt occur.
It is not necessary to 'waste time' when placing shrooms because you can simply either push the lane into the enemy tower with autoattacks or just bomb it with a shroom- creating a time window where you can go place a couple more without worrying about missing gold/XP.
On December 04 2010 20:45 redtooth wrote:
some cons to teemo to point out:
1. he sucks in laning (q harass is overrated) and dies in solos.
2. he is super super super squishy.
3. he has little utility in teamfights outside of occasionally disabling their auto-attacking carry. even then stuns are better.
4. his ult is useless in winning teamfights (MAYBE do better in cleanup but that doesn't matter when they rout you).
1. He wins some lanes and loses some. Don't put him against Pantheon 
2. Truth. I run Cleanse to help mitigate that.
3/4. In my opinion, controlling the location of teamfights is absolutely critical. If shrooms do nothing else, they do help immensely to help your team avoid, and escape from (and often even turn around) bad fights. Plus, again, a large majority of early teamfights are centred around the dragon- a location where your team has an enormous advantage due to SHROOMPO. You can swamp Baron in shrooms later on for a similar effect.
On December 04 2010 20:45 redtooth wrote:
i've been wrong before on a lot of heroes but until an amazing teemo comes along i won't be convinced. so for now his only role in this game is to troll your team when you want a guaranteed loss.
I am unfortunately not yet skilled enough to prove you wrong. Until I am, I suppose I will have to keep practicing/trolling my team. ^_^
|
Just to drop my 2 cents in on the Teemo discussion:
1. You should literally never have W active. It should always be off until you need it to get away (don't use it to chase because you should never be chasing, excepting special circumstances like the last alive enemy champion)
2. He farms extremely well, and safely, since the buff to E means you will usually come out even / ahead in damage exchanges, especially when combined with Q + Auto attack. Also, his E discourages opponents from getting in close and then backing off.
3. Q is on a short enough cooldown such that Blind -> Exhaust -> Blind can be done with little to no time in between the abilities so any auto-attacking champion can be shut down for essentially the entire relevant portion of the teamfight. This also makes him fairly effective in 1v1 situations against these champions.
4. Mushrooms offer excellent map control - though this point has been brought up quite a bit so I won't elaborate further
It is also worth mentioning that, while Q is comparable in effect to a stun, Teemo's Q can fill the same role while saving the team's stun for another enemy champion and comes on your potential ranged carry
|
ok crushed another teemo today.
nop i'm still right.
On December 05 2010 12:04 STS17 wrote:
Just to drop my 2 cents in on the Teemo discussion:
1. You should literally never have W active. It should always be off until you need it to get away (don't use it to chase because you should never be chasing, excepting special circumstances like the last alive enemy champion) i actually never thought of that. hmm i've never seen anybody else do it either. they usually keep it active at all times.
|
You play Nidalee and Kat zzzzzz
|
On December 05 2010 13:35 redtooth wrote:ok crushed another teemo today. nop i'm still right. Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 12:04 STS17 wrote:
Just to drop my 2 cents in on the Teemo discussion:
1. You should literally never have W active. It should always be off until you need it to get away (don't use it to chase because you should never be chasing, excepting special circumstances like the last alive enemy champion) i actually never thought of that. hmm i've never seen anybody else do it either. they usually keep it active at all times.
what's your in game name? I'd like to play sometime
|
|
|
tank teemo best teemo
Rush Locket first, of course.
|
At this point in time, GETTING TO 1600 is a reliable indicator that you understand the basics of the game.
So only about 1500 people really know what they're doing? I think people put way too much emphasis on rating.
|
On December 05 2010 16:22 exo6yte wrote:Show nested quote +At this point in time, GETTING TO 1600 is a reliable indicator that you understand the basics of the game. So only about 1500 people really know what they're doing? I think people put way too much emphasis on rating. HONESTLY, only like 15 people really know what they're doing. everybody else just tries their best.
On December 05 2010 13:54 Odds wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 13:35 redtooth wrote:ok crushed another teemo today. nop i'm still right. On December 05 2010 12:04 STS17 wrote:
Just to drop my 2 cents in on the Teemo discussion:
1. You should literally never have W active. It should always be off until you need it to get away (don't use it to chase because you should never be chasing, excepting special circumstances like the last alive enemy champion) i actually never thought of that. hmm i've never seen anybody else do it either. they usually keep it active at all times. what's your in game name? I'd like to play sometime WRAWRAWRAWRA
|
On December 05 2010 16:22 exo6yte wrote:Show nested quote +At this point in time, GETTING TO 1600 is a reliable indicator that you understand the basics of the game. So only about 1500 people really know what they're doing? I think people put way too much emphasis on rating.
That is EXACTLY what I am saying.
|
I don't think that it's fair to say that the top 1% of all players on the ladder are merely "understanding the basics". What is the cutoff point for "the basics"? I'm not understanding what you're trying to say here.
|
Things like counting creeps, last hitting, positioning, teamplay, objective importance, warding, harassing, timing, hot streaks, jungling, buff control, map control, etc.
Seriously it's stunning how bad players are even at 1600 level, but they will generally understand most of the things that top players consider "basic" even if they are bad at them.
|
I mean you might have a conceptual grasp of these things but if anyone can consistently actualize their understanding of these terms they should be able to get to 1600 quite easily.
|
On December 05 2010 18:44 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
I mean you might have a conceptual grasp of these things but if anyone can consistently actualize their understanding of these terms they should be able to get to 2000 given enough games.
|
United States47024 Posts
On December 05 2010 18:09 exo6yte wrote:
I don't think that it's fair to say that the top 1% of all players on the ladder are merely "understanding the basics". What is the cutoff point for "the basics"? I'm not understanding what you're trying to say here.
I don't see why it's such a foreign concept that 99% of people are terrible at this game. Though to be fair, it's partially a holdover from TL's mentality about SC/SC2--most people consider D+ or middle Diamond to not be very good, despite percentage-wise being a similar 1% of players.
|
|
|
How the hell do you break 1600 when every other game someone picks Revive/Ignite Soraka after you pick Sona and claims to be DPS?
|
Marshall Islands3404 Posts
i have revised my advice to
get extremely lucky. most kids just troll ranked these days its not even fun for me to troll anymore when you got so many morons
only difference is its just bland generic "trolling" like feeding 0-5 in lane then spamming U mAD?
|
I had a Soraka with Smite and Clarity. End up winning cuz their Nunu died to jungle creeps twice in a row and started feeding.
|
my advice to break 1600
be as positive and accepting as possible; play with your teammates in mind.
once you hit that queue and see those 4 other names, you are basically stuck with them until the game is over. it doesnt matter if you hate one of them or if one picks a hero which happens to be something you consider trash. you have to trust in your teammates and play around their picks. if you want to rip them apart at the score screen, fine, but its never over 'til its over. stay positive until your nexus (or theirs) dies.
|
Yeah, I feel the same way. I can only control my actions so I try to find mistakes that I did or plays I could have improved upon. This game though... urgh.. I am such a chill and mellow guy, but this game can make me rage like no other.
|
Urgot is the best way to reach 1600. BOOM!
|
On December 06 2010 13:52 Tooplark wrote:
Urgot is the best way to reach 1600. BOOM!
+ Show Spoiler +Thought it should be repeated for emphasis
|
I actually don't disagree with that. Snowballing super hard from the beginning is a good way to induce the other team to feed/leave/surrender/afk and urgot is the king of level 1-6. Better be on your carry game though, cuz right after that he drops off super hard lol.
|
On December 06 2010 15:32 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
I actually don't disagree with that. Snowballing super hard from the beginning is a good way to induce the other team to feed/leave/surrender/afk and urgot is the king of level 1-6. Better be on your carry game though, cuz right after that he drops off super hard lol.
Well that's why you play him with comps that want to end the game early instead of later.
|
Urgot is more versatile than people think honestly. After you rock the lane from levels 1-9 or so, you can either build him heavy single-target DPS or super tanky disable-bot.
If I ever get the balls to try him in ranked games, or manage to get a ranked 5s team together he is sure as hell who I will be using.
|
On December 06 2010 15:45 STS17 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2010 15:32 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
I actually don't disagree with that. Snowballing super hard from the beginning is a good way to induce the other team to feed/leave/surrender/afk and urgot is the king of level 1-6. Better be on your carry game though, cuz right after that he drops off super hard lol. Well that's why you play him with comps that want to end the game early instead of later.
Because... that's going to happen... under 1600...
|
Marshall Islands3404 Posts
On December 06 2010 17:28 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2010 15:45 STS17 wrote:On December 06 2010 15:32 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
I actually don't disagree with that. Snowballing super hard from the beginning is a good way to induce the other team to feed/leave/surrender/afk and urgot is the king of level 1-6. Better be on your carry game though, cuz right after that he drops off super hard lol. Well that's why you play him with comps that want to end the game early instead of later. Because... that's going to happen... under 1600...
actually people do cheese comps a lot at 1600+
see a lot of people especially during korean times running shit like eve/shen/shaco and just roaming your jungle the entire game and it actually works since people start bitching at eachother when your jungler dies over and over
|
ok guitar and I have figured this thing out i think
duo queue
Sivir mid
Shen solo top
GG
|
On December 06 2010 19:35 Odds wrote:
ok guitar and I have figured this thing out i think
duo queue
Sivir mid
Shen solo top
GG
And then you don't get someone to jungle. Or someone tries to and dies to Golem and is completely shut down after that. And bottom lane feeds the Twitch/Trynd 10 kills in 10 minutes.
Either you communicate with your allies and help them play well or you rely on getting decent allies.
|
The problem with me is that i always play support class, heck my main champ is zilean, and no matter how many kills you get as zilean there no way to carry your team. I know im better then the rating im at right now(1312) im 9-7 right now in ranked, every game i lose i seem to have one of those feeders/disconnect that just make us lose. I almost always go postive as zilean, and i do try not to ulti myself at all, but you just get these people that i have no idea how i got them on my team, or if there any comman sense left and we lose becasue of them, then next game ill get decent players and be able to hold them toegether till we win... then it just repeats
The only thing i like is that i try and stay postive and frame my critism in a postive way, our trundle was jungling and kept dying in their jungle... one of our guys on the team just proceeds to rip into trundle, WTF are you doing you fucking noob, they have that warded, which ruins all team chemistry we have. I just say trundle they have that warded, becareful going in thier. The only thing i hate more then feeders is people that Shit-talk to feeders
|
Basically if you aren't competent with at least three different classes of champions you're not going to make it at the higher levels anyway though.
|
On December 06 2010 23:14 spinesheath wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2010 19:35 Odds wrote:
ok guitar and I have figured this thing out i think
duo queue
Sivir mid
Shen solo top
GG
And then you don't get someone to jungle. Or someone tries to and dies to Golem and is completely shut down after that. And bottom lane feeds the Twitch/Trynd 10 kills in 10 minutes. Either you communicate with your allies and help them play well or you rely on getting decent allies.
I had a lovely game last night where our jungler (Shen) was still level 1 six minutes into the game after 2 minion deaths. I don't think that I need to tell you how that game ended. It didn't help that the two clowns in the bottom lane got raped repeatedly (one of whom was Garen.....).
|
On December 07 2010 00:21 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
Basically if you aren't competent with at least three different classes of champions you're not going to make it at the higher levels anyway though.
:/
there are ppl who only play supports in 1600+
@ puck, no offense, but u dont really have enough ranked games under your belt to say where you belong. I used to think the same way, that i should get to be 14-1500 in 20 games, but you really cant tell until you've grinded out a bunch of games. Still tho, if you really like playing supports, just do it and get really fucking good at it, if you get good enough at it, and play enough games doing it, you will come across ppl who can carry you properly. I fucking love supports who know how to do their damn job (i cant support worth shit, but thats another story).
on another note, im on a 5 game (i think?) winning streak in ranked, on my way up! its about damn time too XD
|
BEAR's gonna break the 2k (in disguise) club
|
United States37500 Posts
There are players who are purely support who are very highly ranked, namely guys like Zirun (Janna main). But the problem is that players who play support only are a very minor percentage, probably less than 5%.
So in a way, 5hit is right. If you want to rise in ranked ladder quickly, learn to be versatile. Know how to play carry DPS, know how to jungle. Those two roles make much more of a difference than support. Otherwise, you're banking your win entirely on your team. A 10-0 Zilean is laughable compared to a 10-0 WW. Don't get me started on a 10-0 Ashe, etc.
|
On December 07 2010 00:21 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
Basically if you aren't competent with at least three different classes of champions you're not going to make it at the higher levels anyway though. =/
|
United States37500 Posts
On December 07 2010 07:14 redtooth wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 00:21 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
Basically if you aren't competent with at least three different classes of champions you're not going to make it at the higher levels anyway though. =/
There are exceptions. 5hit noob for blanket statements.
Yes, toothred, you fall under that category. The class you main is "wall jumpers".
Super niche role yo!
|
On December 06 2010 23:14 spinesheath wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2010 19:35 Odds wrote:
ok guitar and I have figured this thing out i think
duo queue
Sivir mid
Shen solo top
GG
And then you don't get someone to jungle. Or someone tries to and dies to Golem and is completely shut down after that. And bottom lane feeds the Twitch/Trynd 10 kills in 10 minutes. Either you communicate with your allies and help them play well or you rely on getting decent allies.
es okay. Sivir es the best , i can kill 6 peopel in 1 shot every time, es so good
|
As of right now I have these full sets of runes:
Health Quints
AP Quints
CDR Blues
MR Blues
Dodge Yellows
MP5 Yellows
Spellpen Reds
1/2 AS Reds
Which should I consider next, especially if I'm looking to pick up a jungling champ?
|
United States37500 Posts
1/2 AS Reds, I assume you've only bought 4-5 out of the 9?
Get Flat Armor Yellows next after AS Reds.
|
On December 07 2010 07:12 NeoIllusions wrote:
So in a way, 5hit is right. If you want to rise in ranked ladder quickly, learn to be versatile. Know how to play carry DPS, know how to jungle. Those two roles make much more of a difference than support. Otherwise, you're banking your win entirely on your team. A 10-0 Zilean is laughable compared to a 10-0 WW. Don't get me started on a 10-0 Ashe, etc.
I must strongly disagree. Yeah of course a 10-0 Zil isn't going to do much that a 0-0 Zil couldn't do, same with most other supports, but supports can play a HUGE role in a game.
Sometimes I carry extremely hard with Janna for example. Obviously not by racking up kills and going AD. If you can get at least some coordination with your allies going and use your spells well, support can completely change games.
And the fun part about support is that you can actually correct some mistakes of your allies or dominate the duo lane which leads to a decently farmed ally and two underfarmed enemies.
That's why I mostly play Sona/Janna in ranked games, and it works well (70% winratio both). Yeah you can't really win the game by yourself, but honesly, nobody can unless your enemies are really bad.
Then again I consider Janna a tank/anti-initiator...
|
On December 07 2010 08:08 spinesheath wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 07:12 NeoIllusions wrote:
So in a way, 5hit is right. If you want to rise in ranked ladder quickly, learn to be versatile. Know how to play carry DPS, know how to jungle. Those two roles make much more of a difference than support. Otherwise, you're banking your win entirely on your team. A 10-0 Zilean is laughable compared to a 10-0 WW. Don't get me started on a 10-0 Ashe, etc. I must strongly disagree. Yeah of course a 10-0 Zil isn't going to do much that a 0-0 Zil couldn't do, same with most other supports, but supports can play a HUGE role in a game. Sometimes I carry extremely hard with Janna for example. Obviously not by racking up kills and going AD. If you can get at least some coordination with your allies going and use your spells well, support can completely change games. And the fun part about support is that you can actually correct some mistakes of your allies or dominate the duo lane which leads to a decently farmed ally and two underfarmed enemies. That's why I mostly play Sona/Janna in ranked games, and it works well (70% winratio both). Yeah you can't really win the game by yourself, but honesly, nobody can unless your enemies are really bad. Then again I consider Janna a tank/anti-initiator... you can't deny the truth of what neo is saying though. that doesn't make support players any less valuable. it's just that they are MUCH easier to play and if they were to mess up they wouldn't screw over the team as much as if a solo carry screwed up. the stake associated with playing a carry is higher than a support hero.
|
United States37500 Posts
Let's put this into simpler terms. Goal of the game is to Kill the Throne. What ways do you have of impacting and working towards your goal? I can think of 3 main things: kill enemy champions, kill towers, kill dragon.
DPS Carries can kill enemy champions and towers on their own. Junglers can kill enemy champions and dragon. Supports on the other hand, they don't actively help your team towards those 3 goals. By themselves, they can't do it. Their roles is to ensure their teammates don't fall behind. They don't do much to put their team ahead.
What good is a Janna Shield or Zilean Ulti on your DPS carry if they still end up dying and not killing any enemies? However, if you're Ashe, you last hit properly and buy the right items, you are still going to rape face, regardless of if you have that Janna Shield on you or not. Janna Shield makes things easier for you but doesn't mean you can't kill anyone without it.
My comments aren't meant as a slight towards support champions or players who play supports. I'll be the first one to tell you that a team with Janna has a much bigger team fight advantage against a team that doesn't have Janna. But try to keep perspective. We're talking about what the best way to climb ranking. Nothing else.
|
I'm back to 1600. Put me on that list.
I'll add my own piece of advice. If you don't have summoners up, don't put yourself in an aggressive position. This means, if you're playing Twitch, don't engage in a team fight if you don't have your cleanse or flash up or don't be pushed up in your lane with summoners down. Easiest way to die and feed your sprees people, or give your advantage away.
Another great way to go up the ladder, supports. Some might argue whether or not it's the best way, but it's a great way. I mean if you're 4th/5th pick, and your team already has soloes and jungle, play Janna, taric, or sona. They're way better and contribute more to the team than playing your limited 3 solo farm champs and jungler. They also have a low skill ladder, and don't cost much so learn them. It increases your percent of going up the ladder by a lot. You can't always play a certain champ, and if you do, you're forcing bad lanes.
|
You can't always play a certain champ, and if you do, you're forcing bad lanes.
This is probably the best thing said here. If you want to advance in rating you must pick a champ which suits the comp your team is building and this means you can't always be the 13/3/7 carry
|
On December 07 2010 07:14 redtooth wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 00:21 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
Basically if you aren't competent with at least three different classes of champions you're not going to make it at the higher levels anyway though. =/
I said "competent with" not "amazing with".
|
On December 07 2010 12:18 STS17 wrote:Show nested quote +You can't always play a certain champ, and if you do, you're forcing bad lanes. This is probably the best thing said here. If you want to advance in rating you must pick a champ which suits the comp your team is building and this means you can't always be the 13/3/7 carry
Actually the funny part about this is that Chogath is (and malphite and gragas are) totally viable anywhere on the map lolol.
|
I disagree with almost everything said here. I think the #1 way to rise ladder is to play a hero that can farm heroes. You don't need a tank, you don't need support, if you can butcher your lane and cut people down then all you need to do is make sure you play patiently and wait for mistakes by the opponent.
Play confident. Play selfish. And adjust to what you actually have. Don't have a tank? Engage 5 seconds after combat has started; someone will initiate, guaranteed, just make sure it's not a tank initiating onto you.
Also learn to farm in sidelane, learn to play safe and avoid dying. If you play a good last-hitter you'll still get farmed. Is it slower? Yes. Doesn't mean you can't do it. And you'll need to, because sometimes you won't be able to secure solo.
|
Is there a point where you're just too far gone? I had some bad games a few months ago, because I duo queued with some people I didn't really consider too good at the game, but were close friends. We lost alot of games, (Obviously it's not his fault, I should have carried harder) but now I'm like 41w/42l and only gaining 12 points per win, and losing 12 per loss. I'm like 1042 right now. Will I literally have to win 30 games in a row to make ~300 points?
That may seem completely possible, but the people I'm playing with are either, smart, or the complete opposite. 5/10 games someone says "they banned my champ i'm going to random and feed" and then they do it.
Is duo queuing bad, or would that help me out? I have a 1500 friend, would it end up just hurting him?
Any advice on just breaking out of the ELO dungeon?
|
Around 16 is average, as gains tend to range from 4 to 25ish. You get more beating better players, less beating worse players.
Elo dungeon is a myth propogated by people who aren't that good. There are bad players at all levels, and each team tends to have at least one bad player as well. You're just not doing a good job figuring out who, and punishing them.
Also they say 1200 isn't even average anymore it's like top 25%. It's a tough pill for people to swallow to acknowledge they just aren't that good.
|
On December 08 2010 04:47 Southlight wrote:
I disagree with almost everything said here. I think the #1 way to rise ladder is to play a hero that can farm heroes. You don't need a tank, you don't need support, if you can butcher your lane and cut people down then all you need to do is make sure you play patiently and wait for mistakes by the opponent.
Play confident. Play selfish. And adjust to what you actually have. Don't have a tank? Engage 5 seconds after combat has started; someone will initiate, guaranteed, just make sure it's not a tank initiating onto you.
Also learn to farm in sidelane, learn to play safe and avoid dying. If you play a good last-hitter you'll still get farmed. Is it slower? Yes. Doesn't mean you can't do it. And you'll need to, because sometimes you won't be able to secure solo.
For me I switched from a hero farmer (Pantheon) to a tower farmer (Kayle) to get out of the starting elo range. *shrugs* I suppose my WW streaks that stabilize my elo after bad streaks tend to involve picking on and ganking bad heroes a lot, but in the 1200-1400 range, pushing was more effective than killing for me.
|
On December 08 2010 06:36 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2010 04:47 Southlight wrote:
I disagree with almost everything said here. I think the #1 way to rise ladder is to play a hero that can farm heroes. You don't need a tank, you don't need support, if you can butcher your lane and cut people down then all you need to do is make sure you play patiently and wait for mistakes by the opponent.
Play confident. Play selfish. And adjust to what you actually have. Don't have a tank? Engage 5 seconds after combat has started; someone will initiate, guaranteed, just make sure it's not a tank initiating onto you.
Also learn to farm in sidelane, learn to play safe and avoid dying. If you play a good last-hitter you'll still get farmed. Is it slower? Yes. Doesn't mean you can't do it. And you'll need to, because sometimes you won't be able to secure solo. For me I switched from a hero farmer (Pantheon) to a tower farmer (Kayle) to get out of the starting elo range. *shrugs* I suppose my WW streaks that stabilize my elo after bad streaks tend to involve picking on and ganking bad heroes a lot, but in the 1200-1400 range, pushing was more effective than killing for me.
IIRC that was also when your Pantheon wasn't as dominating (cuz of pre-Loci) so you weren't really carrying.
|
that's true to an extent, but of the suite of heroes I picked up at that point (Amumu, Garen, Kayle, Xin, Taric and Annie), Kayle had by far the highest winrate for me despite the fact that I played cowardly as fuck and pretty much never killed people with her. I mean, maybe my skills just translated to Kayle better than anyone else so I was just better with her than the others in general, but even when I could put up absurd kd ratios with Xin and Garen, I didn't feel like I was controlling my own destiny as much as I was just solo pushing for 90% of the game with ghost/cleanse kayle.
|
Probably because you took too much damage with Xin/Garen because you didn't play selfish enough, to be honest. You were probably close to first in instead of being like Master Yi. Hence my point about playing selfish.
|
Sona/Janna all the way from 1200 to 1600. And then from 1400 to 1670.
|
On December 08 2010 06:33 Southlight wrote:
Around 16 is average, as gains tend to range from 4 to 25ish. You get more beating better players, less beating worse players.
Elo dungeon is a myth propogated by people who aren't that good. There are bad players at all levels, and each team tends to have at least one bad player as well. You're just not doing a good job figuring out who, and punishing them.
Also they say 1200 isn't even average anymore it's like top 25%. It's a tough pill for people to swallow to acknowledge they just aren't that good.
Elo hell is more for the people who aren't quite good enough to make a difference in most of their games, but they aren't so bad that they deserve their elo.
|
Really? Generally-speaking all the "decent" and "good" players around that elo have the same elo too. So do the bads, but that happens everywhere. As Brees mentioned some time ago, there're some "amazing" 1600s and some "terrible" 2000s. Does that mean the 1600 doesn't deserve his elo?
|
On December 08 2010 07:27 Southlight wrote:
Really? Generally-speaking all the "decent" and "good" players around that elo have the same elo too. So do the bads, but that happens everywhere. As Brees mentioned some time ago, there're some "amazing" 1600s and some "terrible" 2000s. Does that mean the 1600 doesn't deserve his elo?
It means that the 1600 plays better then his elo gives him credit for and the 2000 player got carried too much.
|
Just out of curiosity, if you are generally good at farming and don't feed, how far could you go ELO-wise if you whored Twitch every game?
|
On December 08 2010 07:34 xDaunt wrote:
Just out of curiosity, if you are generally good at farming and don't feed, how far could you go ELO-wise if you whored Twitch every game?
I'd say: Depends on your luck. Twitch needs decent allies to take all the nasty stuff before he actually engages in the fight. And after that he still needs someone tanking for him.
|
On December 08 2010 07:34 xDaunt wrote:
Just out of curiosity, if you are generally good at farming and don't feed, how far could you go ELO-wise if you whored Twitch every game?
2000+ as most ranged DPS players can play Twitch just fine.
|
United States37500 Posts
On December 08 2010 04:47 Southlight wrote:
I disagree with almost everything said here. I think the #1 way to rise ladder is to play a hero that can farm heroes. You don't need a tank, you don't need support, if you can butcher your lane and cut people down then all you need to do is make sure you play patiently and wait for mistakes by the opponent.
Play confident. Play selfish. And adjust to what you actually have. Don't have a tank? Engage 5 seconds after combat has started; someone will initiate, guaranteed, just make sure it's not a tank initiating onto you.
Also learn to farm in sidelane, learn to play safe and avoid dying. If you play a good last-hitter you'll still get farmed. Is it slower? Yes. Doesn't mean you can't do it. And you'll need to, because sometimes you won't be able to secure solo.
Farm heroes... sounds like carries and jungle to me.
|
On December 08 2010 07:29 Frolossus wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2010 07:27 Southlight wrote:
Really? Generally-speaking all the "decent" and "good" players around that elo have the same elo too. So do the bads, but that happens everywhere. As Brees mentioned some time ago, there're some "amazing" 1600s and some "terrible" 2000s. Does that mean the 1600 doesn't deserve his elo? It means that the 1600 plays better then his elo gives him credit for and the 2000 player got carried too much.
You don't get to 2000 by getting carried. Straight up, if you think you are competing with the top what, 50 players in this game? because they got carried, you are wrong. 1600, yeah, you can get carried to. 1700? Maybe. Anything higher than that is skill, straight up. You might think a player is terrible because they had an off game, or maybe they just failed against you a few times, but 2000 ranked players are the top 0.001% of this game. They didn't get carried there.
|
On December 08 2010 04:47 Southlight wrote:
I disagree with almost everything said here. I think the #1 way to rise ladder is to play a hero that can farm heroes. You don't need a tank, you don't need support, if you can butcher your lane and cut people down then all you need to do is make sure you play patiently and wait for mistakes by the opponent.
Play confident. Play selfish. And adjust to what you actually have. Don't have a tank? Engage 5 seconds after combat has started; someone will initiate, guaranteed, just make sure it's not a tank initiating onto you.
Also learn to farm in sidelane, learn to play safe and avoid dying. If you play a good last-hitter you'll still get farmed. Is it slower? Yes. Doesn't mean you can't do it. And you'll need to, because sometimes you won't be able to secure solo.
This part has helped me out soooo much in some games, especially where I get behind, but other people just don't seem to understand.
I'll go to a sidelane that got naturally pushed by enemy minions (a bit in front of our second tower, for example.)
There's enough minions there that even if im last hitting EVERYTHING (but NOT throwing down aoes) I won't push the lane, just because there's so many ranged creeps and they're being replenished at the same rate i'm killing them (because i'm being patient and only taking last hits...)
Then our [insert someone who isnt our carry, or even is..] comes by and instantly flattens the wave. Sure, you get 500 gold now. But now that wave is going to be pushed so far out and can't be farmed anymore. When we aren't in a position to push lanes, why do this?
|
It's impatience I guess. I know myself that I shouldn't push lanes super hard if it's mid-late game and a lot of them are MIA, but I still do so I can get fast gold and can b faster, leaving me vulnerable for the least amount of time before I get ganked.
|
On December 08 2010 14:12 sylverfyre wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2010 04:47 Southlight wrote:
I disagree with almost everything said here. I think the #1 way to rise ladder is to play a hero that can farm heroes. You don't need a tank, you don't need support, if you can butcher your lane and cut people down then all you need to do is make sure you play patiently and wait for mistakes by the opponent.
Play confident. Play selfish. And adjust to what you actually have. Don't have a tank? Engage 5 seconds after combat has started; someone will initiate, guaranteed, just make sure it's not a tank initiating onto you.
Also learn to farm in sidelane, learn to play safe and avoid dying. If you play a good last-hitter you'll still get farmed. Is it slower? Yes. Doesn't mean you can't do it. And you'll need to, because sometimes you won't be able to secure solo. This part has helped me out soooo much in some games, especially where I get behind, but other people just don't seem to understand. I'll go to a sidelane that got naturally pushed by enemy minions (a bit in front of our second tower, for example.) There's enough minions there that even if im last hitting EVERYTHING (but NOT throwing down aoes) I won't push the lane, just because there's so many ranged creeps and they're being replenished at the same rate i'm killing them (because i'm being patient and only taking last hits...) Then our [insert someone who isnt our carry, or even is..] comes by and instantly flattens the wave. Sure, you get 500 gold now. But now that wave is going to be pushed so far out and can't be farmed anymore. When we aren't in a position to push lanes, why do this?
Possibly because if the wave isn't flattened immediately and all the gold/XP gained quickly the enemy will catch on and attempt to gank?
Or by leaving the enemy minions pushed close to your own tower you make it easier for them to knock it down?
It all depends on what phase of the game you're talking about. Early game I can definitely see not flattening the entire wave.
Late game however it would be a mistake just to sit and farm slowly when baron is up for grabs and there are towers down on one (or both) sides. Especially if you want to make it harder for your towers to be pushed without minions revealing enemy positioning.
EDIT: MY LIFE FOR AIUR!!
|
Yeah that's another thing I notice some players have no grasp of. When it's 40 minutes in and someone is sitting there patiently to last hit without pushing the wave I'm like WTF ARE YOU DOING YOU RETARD in my head but it takes too long to type it out so I usually don't say anything. Learning when to push and when to defend is pretty crucial to understanding this game.
|
United States47024 Posts
On December 08 2010 14:12 sylverfyre wrote:
Then our [insert someone who isnt our carry, or even is..] comes by and instantly flattens the wave. Sure, you get 500 gold now. But now that wave is going to be pushed so far out and can't be farmed anymore. When we aren't in a position to push lanes, why do this?
Because seeing you tied up there farming for an extended period of time opens up options for your opponent. When they see one person solo farming top, it lets them 5 man dragon because they know you won't get there in time for the fight.
Flattening the wave quickly frees you up to contribute on other parts of the map--and puts the onus on the other team to send someone to clear/farm the big wave when it reaches their side (possibly giving your team an opening to push/dragon later when you see one person too far to contribute in time).
Clearing those waves is obviously not always right, but it's also not obviously wrong every time either.
On December 08 2010 15:07 WaveofShadow wrote:
Possibly because if the wave isn't flattened immediately and all the gold/XP gained quickly the enemy will catch on and attempt to gank?
Or by leaving the enemy minions pushed close to your own tower you make it easier for them to knock it down?
It all depends on what phase of the game you're talking about. Early game I can definitely see not flattening the entire wave.
Late game however it would be a mistake just to sit and farm slowly when baron is up for grabs and there are towers down on one (or both) sides. Especially if you want to make it harder for your towers to be pushed without minions revealing enemy positioning.
EDIT: MY LIFE FOR AIUR!!
Even early game, it's sometimes a good idea to force the wave into their tower if no one is there (e.g. the opponent just backed for the first time)--the tower kills creeps way more efficiently than the enemy minions, so unless you expect the opponent to be back to lane before the tower cleans up your minions (not exactly hard to judge, seeing as you've probably backed-returned to lane hundreds of times in all the games you've played), you deny more XP/gold by forcing the wave into tower than by holding the waves in the center.
|
Even early game, it's sometimes a good idea to force the wave into their tower if no one is there (e.g. the opponent just backed for the first time)--the tower kills creeps way more efficiently than the enemy minions, so unless you expect the opponent to be back to lane before the tower cleans up your minions (not exactly hard to judge, seeing as you've probably backed-returned to lane hundreds of times in all the games you've played), you deny more XP/gold by forcing the wave into tower than by holding the waves in the center.
Good advice; I find this is particularly important for solo lane play and less emphasized for dual/ 1v2 lanes.
|
After being in the low 1000's I malphite/shaco/kass'd my way into 10 wins in a row, finally into the 1100's and only -3 instead of -11. My 11th game had a troll morde who afk'd after level 12 saying we weren't good enough for him.
We def would have won if we just had one more person.
|
Well... you can't win every game. It's not like because we're higher elo we stopped losing games. Suck it up and win another 10 .
|
Haha I know, I'm going for another 10 tonight, bringing me into the 1200's. It's irritating when that happens, because I already have so many losses, and I'm already getting little to no points per win, in such a low ELO it really hurts.
|
On December 08 2010 04:47 Southlight wrote:
I disagree with almost everything said here. I think the #1 way to rise ladder is to play a hero that can farm heroes. You don't need a tank, you don't need support, if you can butcher your lane and cut people down then all you need to do is make sure you play patiently and wait for mistakes by the opponent.
i think this may be true at the slightly higher levels but at 1200-1400 IMO, it's more important to play a champion that will punish the other team for leaving a lane open. shaco, sivir, shen, master yi, udyr... these champs will take 2 towers in every lane if the other team tries to force a baron or a teamfight. and unfortunately at low levels, players don't know how to handle lack of map control. you'll find that in evenly matched teams (skillwise and compwise), if a team goes up 3 towers to 0 (like every first tower), they can be down 2 dragons and 5 champ kills and all they have to do is stick some wards up and maintain map control and they will win every time. the team down towers will send people to put up wards and get ambushed repeatedly, have no baron/dragon control, and just get totally bullied whenever they try to farm. taking a champ that can gank and then take the tower (i.e. shaco, the perfect low elo solo queue champ) is free wins at low levels. i don't know how many times i've ganked at level 7 with shaco into bottom lane, got a double kill and watched my teammates die too, only to hallucinate and take the first tower and get the second tower down to 1/2 health or less by the time their jungler responds. or if i'm top lane with master yi and there's a fight at dragon i just throw highlander on and take both towers i try to take an inhib too. yeah, they're gonna send their whole team to stop me but i eat towers like cereal so even as they nuke me down i'm taking down the tower. it's that simple. sure, my teammates will bitch at me "why didn't you help noob yi so noob gg" and try to surrender right there but the fact of the matter is if i tried to run all the way across the map i'd be too late anyways, and yeah i just fed them another kill but i prevented them from pushing and i took 2.5+ towers. i'll do it every time
|
Marshall Islands3404 Posts
On December 08 2010 12:11 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2010 07:29 Frolossus wrote:On December 08 2010 07:27 Southlight wrote:
Really? Generally-speaking all the "decent" and "good" players around that elo have the same elo too. So do the bads, but that happens everywhere. As Brees mentioned some time ago, there're some "amazing" 1600s and some "terrible" 2000s. Does that mean the 1600 doesn't deserve his elo? It means that the 1600 plays better then his elo gives him credit for and the 2000 player got carried too much. You don't get to 2000 by getting carried. Straight up, if you think you are competing with the top what, 50 players in this game? because they got carried, you are wrong. 1600, yeah, you can get carried to. 1700? Maybe. Anything higher than that is skill, straight up. You might think a player is terrible because they had an off game, or maybe they just failed against you a few times, but 2000 ranked players are the top 0.001% of this game. They didn't get carried there.
disagree, had a 2k player on my team that was only like 60-30 that rushed manamune on sivir (rofl)
his end build was like manamune/zerker greaves/infinity edge. he didnt do anything useful the entire game.
oh and SkiLLY. self explanatory. how he got 2k nobody will ever know.
coincidentally hes already down to 1900, durp.
|
On December 09 2010 23:29 Brees wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2010 12:11 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On December 08 2010 07:29 Frolossus wrote:On December 08 2010 07:27 Southlight wrote:
Really? Generally-speaking all the "decent" and "good" players around that elo have the same elo too. So do the bads, but that happens everywhere. As Brees mentioned some time ago, there're some "amazing" 1600s and some "terrible" 2000s. Does that mean the 1600 doesn't deserve his elo? It means that the 1600 plays better then his elo gives him credit for and the 2000 player got carried too much. You don't get to 2000 by getting carried. Straight up, if you think you are competing with the top what, 50 players in this game? because they got carried, you are wrong. 1600, yeah, you can get carried to. 1700? Maybe. Anything higher than that is skill, straight up. You might think a player is terrible because they had an off game, or maybe they just failed against you a few times, but 2000 ranked players are the top 0.001% of this game. They didn't get carried there. disagree, had a 2k player on my team that was only like 60-30 that rushed manamune on sivir (rofl) his end build was like manamune/zerker greaves/infinity edge. he didnt do anything useful the entire game. oh and SkiLLY. self explanatory. how he got 2k nobody will ever know. coincidentally hes already down to 1900, durp.
I don't know what his rating is but I thought I saw tree eskimo do this last night.
|
Marshall Islands3404 Posts
On December 10 2010 01:01 Scorcher2k wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2010 23:29 Brees wrote:On December 08 2010 12:11 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On December 08 2010 07:29 Frolossus wrote:On December 08 2010 07:27 Southlight wrote:
Really? Generally-speaking all the "decent" and "good" players around that elo have the same elo too. So do the bads, but that happens everywhere. As Brees mentioned some time ago, there're some "amazing" 1600s and some "terrible" 2000s. Does that mean the 1600 doesn't deserve his elo? It means that the 1600 plays better then his elo gives him credit for and the 2000 player got carried too much. You don't get to 2000 by getting carried. Straight up, if you think you are competing with the top what, 50 players in this game? because they got carried, you are wrong. 1600, yeah, you can get carried to. 1700? Maybe. Anything higher than that is skill, straight up. You might think a player is terrible because they had an off game, or maybe they just failed against you a few times, but 2000 ranked players are the top 0.001% of this game. They didn't get carried there. disagree, had a 2k player on my team that was only like 60-30 that rushed manamune on sivir (rofl) his end build was like manamune/zerker greaves/infinity edge. he didnt do anything useful the entire game. oh and SkiLLY. self explanatory. how he got 2k nobody will ever know. coincidentally hes already down to 1900, durp. I don't know what his rating is but I thought I saw tree eskimo do this last night.
its bad, she has no mana problems whatsoever
you either rush BTs and last whisper and get stacks asap or you rush warmog's and get stacks on that. depends on how well your team can protect you really.
no reason to get manamune over bf sword though
|
I saw manamune, warmogs, atma's, bveil Sivir on my smurf last night. Too beast.
|
Personally I consider Warmogs/Atmas to be my "oh shi- they have crazy burst" build as it gives you enough hp to make you relatively unburstable. Otherwise there really is little point in it over the BT-centric build.
You should have farmed a BF sword by the time minions spawn anyways ^^
|
United States47024 Posts
On December 09 2010 23:29 Brees wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2010 12:11 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On December 08 2010 07:29 Frolossus wrote:On December 08 2010 07:27 Southlight wrote:
Really? Generally-speaking all the "decent" and "good" players around that elo have the same elo too. So do the bads, but that happens everywhere. As Brees mentioned some time ago, there're some "amazing" 1600s and some "terrible" 2000s. Does that mean the 1600 doesn't deserve his elo? It means that the 1600 plays better then his elo gives him credit for and the 2000 player got carried too much. You don't get to 2000 by getting carried. Straight up, if you think you are competing with the top what, 50 players in this game? because they got carried, you are wrong. 1600, yeah, you can get carried to. 1700? Maybe. Anything higher than that is skill, straight up. You might think a player is terrible because they had an off game, or maybe they just failed against you a few times, but 2000 ranked players are the top 0.001% of this game. They didn't get carried there. disagree, had a 2k player on my team that was only like 60-30 that rushed manamune on sivir (rofl) his end build was like manamune/zerker greaves/infinity edge. he didnt do anything useful the entire game. oh and SkiLLY. self explanatory. how he got 2k nobody will ever know. coincidentally hes already down to 1900, durp.
I thought the only 2k rated players with under 100 games played were all jiji smurfs?
|
On December 10 2010 01:14 Brees wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2010 01:01 Scorcher2k wrote:On December 09 2010 23:29 Brees wrote:On December 08 2010 12:11 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On December 08 2010 07:29 Frolossus wrote:On December 08 2010 07:27 Southlight wrote:
Really? Generally-speaking all the "decent" and "good" players around that elo have the same elo too. So do the bads, but that happens everywhere. As Brees mentioned some time ago, there're some "amazing" 1600s and some "terrible" 2000s. Does that mean the 1600 doesn't deserve his elo? It means that the 1600 plays better then his elo gives him credit for and the 2000 player got carried too much. You don't get to 2000 by getting carried. Straight up, if you think you are competing with the top what, 50 players in this game? because they got carried, you are wrong. 1600, yeah, you can get carried to. 1700? Maybe. Anything higher than that is skill, straight up. You might think a player is terrible because they had an off game, or maybe they just failed against you a few times, but 2000 ranked players are the top 0.001% of this game. They didn't get carried there. disagree, had a 2k player on my team that was only like 60-30 that rushed manamune on sivir (rofl) his end build was like manamune/zerker greaves/infinity edge. he didnt do anything useful the entire game. oh and SkiLLY. self explanatory. how he got 2k nobody will ever know. coincidentally hes already down to 1900, durp. I don't know what his rating is but I thought I saw tree eskimo do this last night. its bad, she has no mana problems whatsoever you either rush BTs and last whisper and get stacks asap or you rush warmog's and get stacks on that. depends on how well your team can protect you really. no reason to get manamune over bf sword though
Ah, that made me remember why I think... He was trying to lane against Malphite I think and was having mana issues because he hadn't remembered to switch his mp5 runes in. I can't say if that justifies it or not but that's what I remember.
|
Marshall Islands3404 Posts
On December 10 2010 02:39 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2010 23:29 Brees wrote:On December 08 2010 12:11 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On December 08 2010 07:29 Frolossus wrote:On December 08 2010 07:27 Southlight wrote:
Really? Generally-speaking all the "decent" and "good" players around that elo have the same elo too. So do the bads, but that happens everywhere. As Brees mentioned some time ago, there're some "amazing" 1600s and some "terrible" 2000s. Does that mean the 1600 doesn't deserve his elo? It means that the 1600 plays better then his elo gives him credit for and the 2000 player got carried too much. You don't get to 2000 by getting carried. Straight up, if you think you are competing with the top what, 50 players in this game? because they got carried, you are wrong. 1600, yeah, you can get carried to. 1700? Maybe. Anything higher than that is skill, straight up. You might think a player is terrible because they had an off game, or maybe they just failed against you a few times, but 2000 ranked players are the top 0.001% of this game. They didn't get carried there. disagree, had a 2k player on my team that was only like 60-30 that rushed manamune on sivir (rofl) his end build was like manamune/zerker greaves/infinity edge. he didnt do anything useful the entire game. oh and SkiLLY. self explanatory. how he got 2k nobody will ever know. coincidentally hes already down to 1900, durp. I thought the only 2k rated players with under 100 games played were all jiji smurfs?
sxspp, he has 200 games played now. this was a while ago
|
I'm still pissed that Bryden7 managed to crack 2K. That guy sucks.
|
On December 10 2010 03:11 Mogwai wrote:
I'm still pissed that Bryden7 managed to crack 2K. That guy sucks.
Really irritates me whenever I see him on Eski's stream- kid never does anything but suck and shittalk.
|
Ah yeah the curse of high Elo - people get less bad but more competitive. That kinda includes certain things...
I´d say the best way out of mediocre Elo is to play champs/styles that punish mediocre gameplay - mostly map awareness and lack of utilizing resources. Basically a jungler and/or Pusher.
Especially pushing is handy since very often noncompetitive players don´t get the idea that you only fight for a REASON. You should never attempt to kill a champion/champions for the sake of killing them. You need something that is more worth than just the bounty/XP - you could have farmed that at much lower risk. Taking a Tower, Rune, Dragon... something!
|
On December 10 2010 03:11 Mogwai wrote:
I'm still pissed that Bryden7 managed to crack 2K. That guy sucks.
Oh man I still remember that game vs milkfat. Bryden goes all hurr durr I'll feed bot as Malz.
Oh and he spread that Malphite shit to low elo's by making a thread on the LoL forums, more reasons to hate him.
|
I have a question for you high elos:
Who should I play if I want to get lots of kills and not too many deaths so that I can be like "WTF NOOBS L2P IM CARRY U SO HARD" and then blame them all post-game?
|
On December 10 2010 11:43 Tooplark wrote:
I have a question for you high elos:
Who should I play if I want to get lots of kills and not too many deaths so that I can be like "WTF NOOBS L2P IM CARRY U SO HARD" and then blame them all post-game?
Poppy, Veigar... guys who go, "SURPRIZE BUTTSEHKS!" kill one dude and then saunter off for a few minutes waiting for their insta-gib CDs again.
or like, Kass/Shaco, and just pick off stragglers without ever putting yourself in real danger then escape with imba escape moves.
|
On December 10 2010 12:07 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2010 11:43 Tooplark wrote:
I have a question for you high elos:
Who should I play if I want to get lots of kills and not too many deaths so that I can be like "WTF NOOBS L2P IM CARRY U SO HARD" and then blame them all post-game? Poppy, Veigar... guys who go, "SURPRIZE BUTTSEHKS!" kill one dude and then saunter off for a few minutes waiting for their insta-gib CDs again. or like, Kass/Shaco, and just pick off stragglers without ever putting yourself in real danger then escape with imba escape moves.
I like imba escape moves................. this quote just got me laughing with its sarcasm
|
Shen gets into danger... and then gets out again with his imba escape moves.
9-2-14 can't get a win out of badjacob, badjacob's bad friend, BEAR badsq, and badcake. So bad.
|
On December 11 2010 03:22 myopia wrote:
Shen gets into danger... and then gets out again with his imba escape moves.
9-2-14 can't get a win out of badjacob, badjacob's bad friend, BEAR badsq, and badcake. So bad.
you forgot badspiderland
|
I prefer spiderbad or feederland
|
|
|
This isn't about breaking 1600, but I feel it's applicable to this thread.
I'm currently sitting at 860 elo, yes 860 not 1860 with a ~40% winrate. I dinged 30 a few weeks ago, went on a losing streak at the start, dropped down to ~1000 and after that I've been slowly dropping. Winning some gmes but still losing more than I win. I feel like I have better decisionmaking and understanding of the game than my teammates but my mechanics are lacking. I can usually tell when we shouldnt fight or when someone makes a bad move but I feel like there's nothing i can do about it. If someone on my team initiates a 4v5 fight, which happens often, what can I do? I usually try to help out but stay safe enough to not die but safe enough that I'm not of much use. I usually try to play carries but I'm just not good enough to carry a bad team to a win. I've tried playing pushing champs and just push towers while the teams are dancing around in mid, what usually happens though is my team tries to fight without me and I'll get a tower or two but then my whole team dies and they can freepush much faster than I can and I can't really defend a tower alone vs. 3-4-5-however many of them survived the fight.
tl;dr: I feel like I'm better than my teammates but not good enough to carry a bad team, what to do?
It could just be my ego talking though and I'm just as bad as my teammates, a less than 50% winrate would suggest that, since statistically I should have as many good as bad teams.
|
Train really, really hard in normals with good TL players. Tackle ranked when you can 1v5 a team of 800s.
|
Chauster made a pretty funny post on solomid.net about ELO hell today.
http://www.solomid.net/blog/2010/12/elo-hell/
It's kinda funny to see the responses of some of the people further down, but I definitely have to disagree with him in some respects....this guy summed it up best I think:
+ Show Spoiler +Chauster,
Everything you are saying will help people get out of ELO Hell. However, your comments are showing that you have never been there yourself. ELO Hell is a frustration with losing your game because of your teammates being noticably subpar players that they make it nearly impossible to win the game despite how well you (or your sexy Taric partner) is doing.
You mention things like forcing a fight at dragon and forcing combat when they are trying to catchup on farm. What you don’t understand is that in ELO Hell (true ELO Hello is <1000ish rating), there aren't team fights at dragon. At most times in the game you can walk out and solo dragon yourself for 5 minutes. Many teams dont even want dragon and the only time dragon is killed is if they happen to saunter by it or if they have an intelligent WW jungling. In fact, many players do not even place killing towers high on their list of importance. They simply want to kill other players – deathmatch style.
You also mention to force battles when you have the advantage and the enemy is catching up on farm. What you dont understand is that at that ELO, the enemy doesnt care about last hitting or catching up on farm. This game is a death match. You get players that ask what their ult does on Shen. You get players who play Fiddlesticks and literally wait in the bush the entire game waiting for the enemy team to run close to their bush so they can ult. You get players who jump on Tryndamere and think they can 1v5 at level 6. There are players who literally do not care about the team oriented goal of winning the match, and they only care about their individual gaming experience. To them, the game is a solo game and they only care about amassing as many kills as they can.
How do you expect your suggestions to work when you are in champ select and the moment the bans start your last guy in queue says "mid as Jax" and locks in Jax no matter what your team says? How can we play the best champ for our team comp when our team comp looks good at queue and then we find out that our tank is actually building AD Shen? What can we do when we find out later in game that our carry is AP Tristana with a dorans blade to "fool the other team at start"?
Your suggestions are good for 1300-1500 ELO. But the term ELO Hell originated with the lower ELO brackets for a reason. It is hell. It's possible to get out, but not easy and it is almost entirely based on luck (or playing Mordekaiser when hes not banned). ELO Hell is real, and it might defy the logic of many as to how it can possibly be real – after all, how can a good player end up with such poor players? Can he just be that unlucky? He MUST belong with them, right?
The answer is simple. I will use myself as an example. I started playing this game approximately 6 months ago. I mained only Veigar for a long time, and then I mained Zilean after trying some Amumu. I got to level 30 and literally never took the game seriously or cared about winning. To me, a fun game was winning with a pre-arranged team of my friends. Suddenly, I am level 30 and decide I want to try Ezreal out (I see you and others mained him to get to top ELO). I want to be competitive. Well, I happened to start maining one of the hardest champs in the game to play in ranked matches right after he was nerfed. I was bad. Real bad. I was not good at last hitting, didn't have proper item builds for AD carry champs, and was overall just not good at LoL at this point (except I was fair at Zilean and Veigar…both mostly crap champions unfortunately).
So what happened? I started getting into the game. Figuring out the best items to buy, looking intently at champion stats, and trying to figure out how best to win at this game. I started taking it seriously. I watched a couple videos that featured you playing MF in a competitive setting. Suddenly, I got a lot better. I started playing ranged carry champs and carrying almost every match I play. I am a legitimately good player now. Pro level? Probably not yet. I kind of laugh at the "pro level" skill for this game because it's really not a skill based game – after you take it seriously and develop fundamentals through practice, the game is mostly about team synergy. But now I am stuck around 1000 ELO. I got myself up to close to 1300, but a terrible weekend playing way too many matches and losing so many (must've been a Brazilian holiday that weekend), and I was below 1000 again.
So the problem is with players who start out as poor players, but develop into good players. They are trapped in this low ELO Hell and have a very difficult time getting out. The guys who were good to start when Season One opened were able to hop on Ezreal and easily jump out of the starting ELO 1200 bracket.
While I do agree that if you are a good player you won't be stuck in ELO hell, I also can see how it is possible to stay stuck if you get unlucky/can't perfectly carry a team 95% of the time.
|
On December 10 2010 01:14 Brees wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2010 01:01 Scorcher2k wrote:On December 09 2010 23:29 Brees wrote:On December 08 2010 12:11 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On December 08 2010 07:29 Frolossus wrote:On December 08 2010 07:27 Southlight wrote:
Really? Generally-speaking all the "decent" and "good" players around that elo have the same elo too. So do the bads, but that happens everywhere. As Brees mentioned some time ago, there're some "amazing" 1600s and some "terrible" 2000s. Does that mean the 1600 doesn't deserve his elo? It means that the 1600 plays better then his elo gives him credit for and the 2000 player got carried too much. You don't get to 2000 by getting carried. Straight up, if you think you are competing with the top what, 50 players in this game? because they got carried, you are wrong. 1600, yeah, you can get carried to. 1700? Maybe. Anything higher than that is skill, straight up. You might think a player is terrible because they had an off game, or maybe they just failed against you a few times, but 2000 ranked players are the top 0.001% of this game. They didn't get carried there. disagree, had a 2k player on my team that was only like 60-30 that rushed manamune on sivir (rofl) his end build was like manamune/zerker greaves/infinity edge. he didnt do anything useful the entire game. oh and SkiLLY. self explanatory. how he got 2k nobody will ever know. coincidentally hes already down to 1900, durp. I don't know what his rating is but I thought I saw tree eskimo do this last night. its bad, she has no mana problems whatsoever you either rush BTs and last whisper and get stacks asap or you rush warmog's and get stacks on that. depends on how well your team can protect you really. no reason to get manamune over bf sword though
I can't think of a single hero except corki I would build a manamune on. I hate that item, it's so damn bad.
|
On December 11 2010 05:00 WaveofShadow wrote:Chauster made a pretty funny post on solomid.net about ELO hell today. http://www.solomid.net/blog/2010/12/elo-hell/It's kinda funny to see the responses of some of the people further down, but I definitely have to disagree with him in some respects....this guy summed it up best I think: + Show Spoiler +Chauster,
Everything you are saying will help people get out of ELO Hell. However, your comments are showing that you have never been there yourself. ELO Hell is a frustration with losing your game because of your teammates being noticably subpar players that they make it nearly impossible to win the game despite how well you (or your sexy Taric partner) is doing.
You mention things like forcing a fight at dragon and forcing combat when they are trying to catchup on farm. What you don’t understand is that in ELO Hell (true ELO Hello is <1000ish rating), there aren't team fights at dragon. At most times in the game you can walk out and solo dragon yourself for 5 minutes. Many teams dont even want dragon and the only time dragon is killed is if they happen to saunter by it or if they have an intelligent WW jungling. In fact, many players do not even place killing towers high on their list of importance. They simply want to kill other players – deathmatch style.
You also mention to force battles when you have the advantage and the enemy is catching up on farm. What you dont understand is that at that ELO, the enemy doesnt care about last hitting or catching up on farm. This game is a death match. You get players that ask what their ult does on Shen. You get players who play Fiddlesticks and literally wait in the bush the entire game waiting for the enemy team to run close to their bush so they can ult. You get players who jump on Tryndamere and think they can 1v5 at level 6. There are players who literally do not care about the team oriented goal of winning the match, and they only care about their individual gaming experience. To them, the game is a solo game and they only care about amassing as many kills as they can.
How do you expect your suggestions to work when you are in champ select and the moment the bans start your last guy in queue says "mid as Jax" and locks in Jax no matter what your team says? How can we play the best champ for our team comp when our team comp looks good at queue and then we find out that our tank is actually building AD Shen? What can we do when we find out later in game that our carry is AP Tristana with a dorans blade to "fool the other team at start"?
Your suggestions are good for 1300-1500 ELO. But the term ELO Hell originated with the lower ELO brackets for a reason. It is hell. It's possible to get out, but not easy and it is almost entirely based on luck (or playing Mordekaiser when hes not banned). ELO Hell is real, and it might defy the logic of many as to how it can possibly be real – after all, how can a good player end up with such poor players? Can he just be that unlucky? He MUST belong with them, right?
The answer is simple. I will use myself as an example. I started playing this game approximately 6 months ago. I mained only Veigar for a long time, and then I mained Zilean after trying some Amumu. I got to level 30 and literally never took the game seriously or cared about winning. To me, a fun game was winning with a pre-arranged team of my friends. Suddenly, I am level 30 and decide I want to try Ezreal out (I see you and others mained him to get to top ELO). I want to be competitive. Well, I happened to start maining one of the hardest champs in the game to play in ranked matches right after he was nerfed. I was bad. Real bad. I was not good at last hitting, didn't have proper item builds for AD carry champs, and was overall just not good at LoL at this point (except I was fair at Zilean and Veigar…both mostly crap champions unfortunately).
So what happened? I started getting into the game. Figuring out the best items to buy, looking intently at champion stats, and trying to figure out how best to win at this game. I started taking it seriously. I watched a couple videos that featured you playing MF in a competitive setting. Suddenly, I got a lot better. I started playing ranged carry champs and carrying almost every match I play. I am a legitimately good player now. Pro level? Probably not yet. I kind of laugh at the "pro level" skill for this game because it's really not a skill based game – after you take it seriously and develop fundamentals through practice, the game is mostly about team synergy. But now I am stuck around 1000 ELO. I got myself up to close to 1300, but a terrible weekend playing way too many matches and losing so many (must've been a Brazilian holiday that weekend), and I was below 1000 again.
So the problem is with players who start out as poor players, but develop into good players. They are trapped in this low ELO Hell and have a very difficult time getting out. The guys who were good to start when Season One opened were able to hop on Ezreal and easily jump out of the starting ELO 1200 bracket. While I do agree that if you are a good player you won't be stuck in ELO hell, I also can see how it is possible to stay stuck if you get unlucky/can't perfectly carry a team 95% of the time.
Without reading the linked post and just responding to the spoiler:
Don't. Play. Solo. Queue. The guy says it perfectly "the game is less about individual skill and more about team synergy" if you are playing with people like that then its time to find some friends - if you can't find 4 people who you get along with then its also time to check your personality and attitude.
|
I think replays would go a long way toward resolving the Elo Hell discussion.
|
On December 11 2010 07:29 Seuss wrote:
I think replays would go a long way toward resolving the Elo Hell discussion.
Agreed or some visual aid.
tutorial doesn't cut it
|
It turns out your last-hitting is always worse than you think it is. If you're like me and watch streams going "pff I can play better than that" just take a game to work solely on mechanics and staying alive, and you'll see how much room you have for improvement (or play a really good game!).
I still have a ways to go.
On a side note, I just started taking adderall for ADD and it's like a cloud was lifted from my brain. Thinking and focusing is just... easier. If you want to be serious about school or videogames and you have ADD, it's a real handicap. And this is coming from the old school culture of "suck it up and focus harder" that is still present in Asia and conservative America.
|
On December 11 2010 07:44 Flakes wrote:
It turns out your last-hitting is always worse than you think it is. If you're like me and watch streams going "pff I can play better than that" just take a game to work solely on mechanics and staying alive, and you'll see how much room you have for improvement (or play a really good game!).
This is entirely true. Really, everytime I miss a single last hit I call myself terrible lol. Got to keep practicing on that and knowing HOW to last hit even when the tower is hitting the creeps because the enemy pushed the lane against you. Such as hitting once, letting tower hit twice, then hitting again for the last hit. Controlling your lane to avoid gank opportunities against you while last hitting, harassing, etc is pretty hard to do in some cases and takes a lot of practice.
|
On December 11 2010 07:44 Flakes wrote:
It turns out your last-hitting is always worse than you think it is. If you're like me and watch streams going "pff I can play better than that" just take a game to work solely on mechanics and staying alive, and you'll see how much room you have for improvement (or play a really good game!).
I still have a ways to go.
On a side note, I just started taking adderall for ADD and it's like a cloud was lifted from my brain. Thinking and focusing is just... easier. If you want to be serious about school or videogames and you have ADD, it's a real handicap. And this is coming from the old school culture of "suck it up and focus harder" that is still present in Asia and conservative America.
Fuck I want some adderall so bad. How'd you get diagnosed? They thought I had ADHD when I was a kid but I guess my serotonin was just low so I got jipped and they gave me zoloft instead, which was fucking elevator music in my head all the time.
Back on topic--he's right. I thought I was in Elo hell but I really wasn't just carrying hard enough. If you're complaining about the 800 level, you're not carrying. At all. I mean, think about it this way--if you put Ezpz into a game full of 800s and gave him MF or Ashe he'd probably be able to win it 1v5. If you can't do that, you might belong a couple hundred higher, but you still have room to improve.
|
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/iyJKb.jpg)
BITCHESSSSSSSSSS
|
Finally broke out of the 1k's, into a number that actually show's up! Thanks to all the tips posted in here, and the power of kassadin and malphite!
|
The best way to break 1600 - duo queue with Loci's smurf :D
|
On December 11 2010 18:54 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:BITCHESSSSSSSSSS
Damn 5hit so good. Someone call 911 cause we got a beast in the house and he wrecking noobs over.
|
i like how someone was telling chauster to take a smurf from 800 to 1400 to prove he wasn't just lucky
:wat:
i went from 720 to 1400 in like 2 weeks primarily trolling... getting out of the triple digits isn't hard at all and getting to 1400 hasn't exactly been a challenge either, just a test of patience
|
I'm hoping to break 1600 by the end of tonight, might not make it though
|
I think I might start solo queuing again because I've been playing so bad lately. Don't know how I've become so terrible but hopefully I can get to 1700 and then go back to trolling ~_~
|
On December 13 2010 08:40 HazMat wrote:
I think I might start solo queuing again because I've been playing so bad lately. Don't know how I've become so terrible but hopefully I can get to 1700 and then go back to trolling ~_~
still haven't recovered from my nidalee vs. your lux i see
especially the part where i gibbed you with max spear first while you were typing
|
Why you have to remind me.
Also, fuck solo queue loooool, silly me trying.
|
Marshall Islands3404 Posts
my new advice is
play corki
|
On December 13 2010 09:38 Brees wrote:
my new advice is
play corki
Its true. He doesn't get banned as often anymore and he can carry a team with three feeders on it...... unfortunately for me he can't carry with four feeders.
|
I say, play kassadin. Atleast 1000-1300 for me
|
5HITCOMBO IN THE TOP 500!
I thought I was gonna lose for sure cuz Chris11 took my Chogath on the other team and we had a jungler so I couldn't WW but I'm glad I had Sion even though I've played him only like 3 times cuz he raped so hard bot lane lolol.
|
I broke 1600 a couple weeks ago and have stayed around 1580-1620 since, which is good as I need to improve to move up.
Biggest things that made a difference to get out of low ELO is:
1) Be Flexible. Pick what the team needs, especially if you're a lower slot.
2) Be generous. Feed buffs to the right people, buy wards even if you really shouldn't be, let your carries farm creep waves if you aren't a carry, etc.
3) Don't rage. Chat raging kills so many teams that might actually have had a chance. You need teamwork to win.
|
Also, you need to be try-harding every game, and don't be shy about bossing your team around to make sure you don't blow games that are winnable.
|
|
|
On December 13 2010 19:34 nyxnyxnyx wrote:
Luck
Luck definitely helps. I had been steadily gaining in my rating (mostly by whoring jungle rammus) and was generally carrying my teams. Then I was reminded just how bad a team can be. Fortunately, I wasn't on that team. We dropped all 6 of their out-of-base towers by about the 10-minute mark or so. We dropped 2 inhibitors by the 15-minute mark. The game ended shortly thereafter. The only player on that team that seemed competent was the mid (and by competent, I mean did not feed and held the lane reasonably well before we gangbanged mid). All of the players were about 1350-1450 ELO.
I was definitely lucky not to be stuck on that team.
|
Just broke 1600 whooooo!~~~
(with almost 100% teemo)
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT![[image loading]](http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm3/Sc2ggrise/shrooms.png)
