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On December 04 2010 20:45 redtooth wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 07:46 Odds wrote:On December 03 2010 03:44 redtooth wrote: i honestly believe teemo is the single most useless hero in the game. I'm going to tentatively disagree, despite having no doubt a good deal less experience. I think Teemo's got a bunch of things working in his favor. -Blinding Shot is (from what i've seen) basically on par with Pantheon's pre-patch Q, but it scales better. -He's one of the hardest heroes in the game (barring Shaco, Sivir, and Kass) to chase, allowing him to get away with some risky plays. -He can function effectively as either physical or magical DPS, or a hybrid pretty effectively in a way that many champions cannot or a combination of both. Lets him adapt to the enemy team's MR/Armor situation That's all obvious. I think probably one of his most underestimated aspects is his ability to control the map, and in particular, the Dragon. When I lane mid as Teemo, I typically put the vast majority of my mushrooms in the southeast portion of the lane, as well as in the bushes and in the area between mid lane and dragon-- as this area appears to be the primary highway for both teams as they attempt to control dragon, and the area where fights over it take place. When your team forces a fight at Dragon (or later, Baron), the mushrooms have 4 functions: - an extremely effective early warning system, - a form of rather obnoxious attrition, making the enemies much less likely to engage (because they're low) and also obviously less likely to win a fight, should one occur -the slow attached to the mushrooms allows your team a few extra precious seconds to finish killing the dragon, and can also put the enemy team out of position if someone engages too early while his teammates are slowed. -If you win the fight, the enemies typically have a much harder time getting away. =/ i respect your disagreement but stand by my point. - blinding shot may have good numbers but doesn't scale. so unless you're going AP teemo you are stuck at base skill damage. it's just as good (if that) as any damaging stun. - well if he doesn't get hit that is. but rarely are you going to preempt a chase and if you do usually you would have gotten away whether you had the MS or not. in most laning situations (from my experience) the speed boost is just a mana sink as it just gets auto canceled. it's useless in ganking situations since most ganks are started with an attack. - sorry but this one is pure wrong. teemo's options branch in such a way that it's not viable to choose one ingame. you gotta prepare for it with runes and you can't build hybrid in the way of items. a teemo with a BT and rylais is a useless (yet somehow farmed) teemo. - also you're giving shroom WAY too much credit. the time spent running around planting shrooms is time being wasted pushing lanes or farming. ideally they will warn and stop fleeing enemies and give precious seconds to get dragon but that's being blindly optimistic. a lot of other skills serve the same role and so much more. some cons to teemo to point out: - he sucks in laning (q harass is overrated) and dies in solos. - he is super super super squishy. - he has little utility in teamfights outside of occasionally disabling their auto-attacking carry. even then stuns are better. - his ult is useless in winning teamfights (MAYBE do better in cleanup but that doesn't matter when they rout you). i've been wrong before on a lot of heroes but until an amazing teemo comes along i won't be convinced. so for now his only role in this game is to troll your team when you want a guaranteed loss.
WRA, were you around for the massive Teemo buff? He's pretty ridiculous in lane now (E hits like a ton of bricks), his mushrooms build like Corki's missiles, etc. If you haven't played him since you came back, you really should...
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Yeah, I actually disagree with your evaluation of Teemo too. If it wasn't for the Cho/Gragas/Malphite/Mordekaiser top trend that we have right now he would be the dominant force in the top lane IMO.
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On December 05 2010 02:43 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
Yeah, I actually disagree with your evaluation of Teemo too. If it wasn't for the Cho/Gragas/Malphite/Mordekaiser top trend that we have right now he would be the dominant force in the top lane IMO.
Doesn't Teemo destroy Morde? I play neither of them, but it seems like he can take E at level 1 and just smash through Morde's shield without issue.
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On December 05 2010 05:14 oberon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 02:43 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
Yeah, I actually disagree with your evaluation of Teemo too. If it wasn't for the Cho/Gragas/Malphite/Mordekaiser top trend that we have right now he would be the dominant force in the top lane IMO. Doesn't Teemo destroy Morde? I play neither of them, but it seems like he can take E at level 1 and just smash through Morde's shield without issue.
No because teemo can't deal with a full creep wave when trying to smash mord's face in. Inevitably all mord has to do is kill the creep wave and back off and he'll never lose 1v1
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On December 05 2010 00:19 oberon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 20:45 redtooth wrote:On December 04 2010 07:46 Odds wrote:On December 03 2010 03:44 redtooth wrote: i honestly believe teemo is the single most useless hero in the game. I'm going to tentatively disagree, despite having no doubt a good deal less experience. I think Teemo's got a bunch of things working in his favor. -Blinding Shot is (from what i've seen) basically on par with Pantheon's pre-patch Q, but it scales better. -He's one of the hardest heroes in the game (barring Shaco, Sivir, and Kass) to chase, allowing him to get away with some risky plays. -He can function effectively as either physical or magical DPS, or a hybrid pretty effectively in a way that many champions cannot or a combination of both. Lets him adapt to the enemy team's MR/Armor situation That's all obvious. I think probably one of his most underestimated aspects is his ability to control the map, and in particular, the Dragon. When I lane mid as Teemo, I typically put the vast majority of my mushrooms in the southeast portion of the lane, as well as in the bushes and in the area between mid lane and dragon-- as this area appears to be the primary highway for both teams as they attempt to control dragon, and the area where fights over it take place. When your team forces a fight at Dragon (or later, Baron), the mushrooms have 4 functions: - an extremely effective early warning system, - a form of rather obnoxious attrition, making the enemies much less likely to engage (because they're low) and also obviously less likely to win a fight, should one occur -the slow attached to the mushrooms allows your team a few extra precious seconds to finish killing the dragon, and can also put the enemy team out of position if someone engages too early while his teammates are slowed. -If you win the fight, the enemies typically have a much harder time getting away. =/ i respect your disagreement but stand by my point. - blinding shot may have good numbers but doesn't scale. so unless you're going AP teemo you are stuck at base skill damage. it's just as good (if that) as any damaging stun. - well if he doesn't get hit that is. but rarely are you going to preempt a chase and if you do usually you would have gotten away whether you had the MS or not. in most laning situations (from my experience) the speed boost is just a mana sink as it just gets auto canceled. it's useless in ganking situations since most ganks are started with an attack. - sorry but this one is pure wrong. teemo's options branch in such a way that it's not viable to choose one ingame. you gotta prepare for it with runes and you can't build hybrid in the way of items. a teemo with a BT and rylais is a useless (yet somehow farmed) teemo. - also you're giving shroom WAY too much credit. the time spent running around planting shrooms is time being wasted pushing lanes or farming. ideally they will warn and stop fleeing enemies and give precious seconds to get dragon but that's being blindly optimistic. a lot of other skills serve the same role and so much more. some cons to teemo to point out: - he sucks in laning (q harass is overrated) and dies in solos. - he is super super super squishy. - he has little utility in teamfights outside of occasionally disabling their auto-attacking carry. even then stuns are better. - his ult is useless in winning teamfights (MAYBE do better in cleanup but that doesn't matter when they rout you). i've been wrong before on a lot of heroes but until an amazing teemo comes along i won't be convinced. so for now his only role in this game is to troll your team when you want a guaranteed loss. WRA, were you around for the massive Teemo buff? He's pretty ridiculous in lane now (E hits like a ton of bricks), his mushrooms build like Corki's missiles, etc. If you haven't played him since you came back, you really should...
Yea Teemo's laning is actually really good. Only problem is he can't deal with the FOTM gragas/cho/malph tanks like 5hit said. Also, since shrooms build up to 3 he can push a lane, leave to plant 3 shrooms and be back in lane without missing much exp.
I don't think he's a great champion but he's not as bad as you make him out to be, at least imoimoimo.
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On December 04 2010 20:45 redtooth wrote:
=/ i respect your disagreement but stand by my point.
And I respect yours. :3 Perhaps there are a few things that you haven't considered, however. I'm not sure.
On December 04 2010 20:45 redtooth wrote:
1. blinding shot may have good numbers but doesn't scale. so unless you're going AP teemo you are stuck at base skill damage. it's just as good (if that) as any damaging stun.
2. well if he doesn't get hit that is. but rarely are you going to preempt a chase and if you do usually you would have gotten away whether you had the MS or not. in most laning situations (from my experience) the speed boost is just a mana sink as it just gets auto canceled. it's useless in ganking situations since most ganks are started with an attack.
3. sorry but this one is pure wrong. teemo's options branch in such a way that it's not viable to choose one ingame. you gotta prepare for it with runes and you can't build hybrid in the way of items. a teemo with a BT and rylais is a useless (yet somehow farmed) teemo.
4. also you're giving shroom WAY too much credit. the time spent running around planting shrooms is time being wasted pushing lanes or farming. ideally they will warn and stop fleeing enemies and give precious seconds to get dragon but that's being blindly optimistic. a lot of other skills serve the same role and so much more.
1. I explain this below, but I basically default AP Teemo until there appears to be a need for a change. I like Blinding Shot as a harass skill for 2 reasons:
-It synergizes with W (assuming your lane is safe) and lets you put on a huge amount of constant pressure
-Autoattack-Q-Autoattack hurts a lot and comes out very quickly. Your opponent (barring something like Pantheon) will almost always come out negative in both health and mana should he trade blows with you, and if you feel safe enough to have W active, it is difficult to avoid.
2. I think that if you have the speed boost active in the lane (unless you feel safe and are able to use it to harass heavily), you're doing it wrong. I prefer to save it until the gank comes, and then zoom outta there. Typically they blow their CC sequentially and you have some health left for which they need to autoattack you or whatever- that's the time to hit W.
3. You can. My runes are AP (I may have to set up an AD page as well to adapt to teams that already have mostly AP, but I digress), but that does not make AD completely ineffective. Every game I start out:
-Doran's Ring/HP
-Shoes
-Malady
I will usually start building a BR because of its incredible synergy with Teemo's E, Malady, and my Magic Pen runes. If I finish it and enemies are still not stacking MR, I will build sorc boots (or mercs depending on the situation) and more AS+AP/magic damage items (Nashor's, SotD, etc). If I see more than 2 enemies with a significant amount of MR, I can hang onto the bow, build merc treads, get a B.F. sword and turn the bow into a LW.
My conception of 'AP' teemo is not that you actually stack AP- because he has kinda bad ratios. Just get magic pen and attack speed, and you will do plenty of magic damage with the ability to transition into physical if you have to.
4. As I said, I don't 'run around and place shrooms', ever wasting more than a couple seconds.
-They are all concentrated around my current position- for the first while obviously, in the lane. Not only do they help keep me safe (and thus synergize with Q and W) to harass, but they come in pretty handy should a gank->countergank or a dragon attempt occur.
It is not necessary to 'waste time' when placing shrooms because you can simply either push the lane into the enemy tower with autoattacks or just bomb it with a shroom- creating a time window where you can go place a couple more without worrying about missing gold/XP.
On December 04 2010 20:45 redtooth wrote:
some cons to teemo to point out:
1. he sucks in laning (q harass is overrated) and dies in solos.
2. he is super super super squishy.
3. he has little utility in teamfights outside of occasionally disabling their auto-attacking carry. even then stuns are better.
4. his ult is useless in winning teamfights (MAYBE do better in cleanup but that doesn't matter when they rout you).
1. He wins some lanes and loses some. Don't put him against Pantheon 
2. Truth. I run Cleanse to help mitigate that.
3/4. In my opinion, controlling the location of teamfights is absolutely critical. If shrooms do nothing else, they do help immensely to help your team avoid, and escape from (and often even turn around) bad fights. Plus, again, a large majority of early teamfights are centred around the dragon- a location where your team has an enormous advantage due to SHROOMPO. You can swamp Baron in shrooms later on for a similar effect.
On December 04 2010 20:45 redtooth wrote:
i've been wrong before on a lot of heroes but until an amazing teemo comes along i won't be convinced. so for now his only role in this game is to troll your team when you want a guaranteed loss.
I am unfortunately not yet skilled enough to prove you wrong. Until I am, I suppose I will have to keep practicing/trolling my team. ^_^
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Just to drop my 2 cents in on the Teemo discussion:
1. You should literally never have W active. It should always be off until you need it to get away (don't use it to chase because you should never be chasing, excepting special circumstances like the last alive enemy champion)
2. He farms extremely well, and safely, since the buff to E means you will usually come out even / ahead in damage exchanges, especially when combined with Q + Auto attack. Also, his E discourages opponents from getting in close and then backing off.
3. Q is on a short enough cooldown such that Blind -> Exhaust -> Blind can be done with little to no time in between the abilities so any auto-attacking champion can be shut down for essentially the entire relevant portion of the teamfight. This also makes him fairly effective in 1v1 situations against these champions.
4. Mushrooms offer excellent map control - though this point has been brought up quite a bit so I won't elaborate further
It is also worth mentioning that, while Q is comparable in effect to a stun, Teemo's Q can fill the same role while saving the team's stun for another enemy champion and comes on your potential ranged carry
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ok crushed another teemo today.
nop i'm still right.
On December 05 2010 12:04 STS17 wrote:
Just to drop my 2 cents in on the Teemo discussion:
1. You should literally never have W active. It should always be off until you need it to get away (don't use it to chase because you should never be chasing, excepting special circumstances like the last alive enemy champion) i actually never thought of that. hmm i've never seen anybody else do it either. they usually keep it active at all times.
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You play Nidalee and Kat zzzzzz
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On December 05 2010 13:35 redtooth wrote:ok crushed another teemo today. nop i'm still right. Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 12:04 STS17 wrote:
Just to drop my 2 cents in on the Teemo discussion:
1. You should literally never have W active. It should always be off until you need it to get away (don't use it to chase because you should never be chasing, excepting special circumstances like the last alive enemy champion) i actually never thought of that. hmm i've never seen anybody else do it either. they usually keep it active at all times.
what's your in game name? I'd like to play sometime
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tank teemo best teemo
Rush Locket first, of course.
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At this point in time, GETTING TO 1600 is a reliable indicator that you understand the basics of the game.
So only about 1500 people really know what they're doing? I think people put way too much emphasis on rating.
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On December 05 2010 16:22 exo6yte wrote:Show nested quote +At this point in time, GETTING TO 1600 is a reliable indicator that you understand the basics of the game. So only about 1500 people really know what they're doing? I think people put way too much emphasis on rating. HONESTLY, only like 15 people really know what they're doing. everybody else just tries their best.
On December 05 2010 13:54 Odds wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 13:35 redtooth wrote:ok crushed another teemo today. nop i'm still right. On December 05 2010 12:04 STS17 wrote:
Just to drop my 2 cents in on the Teemo discussion:
1. You should literally never have W active. It should always be off until you need it to get away (don't use it to chase because you should never be chasing, excepting special circumstances like the last alive enemy champion) i actually never thought of that. hmm i've never seen anybody else do it either. they usually keep it active at all times. what's your in game name? I'd like to play sometime WRAWRAWRAWRA
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On December 05 2010 16:22 exo6yte wrote:Show nested quote +At this point in time, GETTING TO 1600 is a reliable indicator that you understand the basics of the game. So only about 1500 people really know what they're doing? I think people put way too much emphasis on rating.
That is EXACTLY what I am saying.
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I don't think that it's fair to say that the top 1% of all players on the ladder are merely "understanding the basics". What is the cutoff point for "the basics"? I'm not understanding what you're trying to say here.
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Things like counting creeps, last hitting, positioning, teamplay, objective importance, warding, harassing, timing, hot streaks, jungling, buff control, map control, etc.
Seriously it's stunning how bad players are even at 1600 level, but they will generally understand most of the things that top players consider "basic" even if they are bad at them.
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I mean you might have a conceptual grasp of these things but if anyone can consistently actualize their understanding of these terms they should be able to get to 1600 quite easily.
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On December 05 2010 18:44 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
I mean you might have a conceptual grasp of these things but if anyone can consistently actualize their understanding of these terms they should be able to get to 2000 given enough games.
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United States47024 Posts
On December 05 2010 18:09 exo6yte wrote:
I don't think that it's fair to say that the top 1% of all players on the ladder are merely "understanding the basics". What is the cutoff point for "the basics"? I'm not understanding what you're trying to say here.
I don't see why it's such a foreign concept that 99% of people are terrible at this game. Though to be fair, it's partially a holdover from TL's mentality about SC/SC2--most people consider D+ or middle Diamond to not be very good, despite percentage-wise being a similar 1% of players.
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EPT
