I'm really sick and tired of all this tanky champ bitching.

Can someone who was around when it all started explain to me the impetus that began this whole "tanky DPS is imba" fad?

phyvo

United States5635 Posts

March 15 2011 19:57 GMT

#1143

I'm pretty sure the imba tanky DPS fad is mostly the fault of Riot. It first really began when Riot decided that Randuin's/FH etc had too much CDR and removed Locket. Before then people on the official forums hardly thought about tanky DPS as specifically imba even though they were building Locket on Gragas/Udyr/etc all the time.

Sure, everyone knew that Xin was OP when he came out but that was one specific case.

Maybe some high Eloers tipped Riot off or something but they don't complain on the official forums so I wouldn't know.

Phrost

United States4008 Posts

March 15 2011 20:09 GMT

#1144

Basically in a perfect world:

tanky dps > tanks > mages > ranged dps > tanky dps

but in order for melee characters to be effective they need to have a few things from this list:

resistance to harassment
a way to quickly close gaps
a way to avoid or reduce crowd control
high mobilty
enough survival to make up the damage missed by engaging
a way to outdamage an opponent (through healing or dps steroids)
a way to keep damage output high (crowd control, slows, etc)

Now some more balanced melee characters have some of these, for example akali:
quick way to close gaps, increased survival, decent healing with twin disciplines, and reduced harassment with well timed smoke bombs but poor survival and no CC reduction so she is fairly easy to stun and focus down.

Irelia has all of these, Sion has most of these (no quick way to close gaps), Malphite has all of these, Cho has everything except a gap closer, Xin has all of these, etc.

In order to not have to redo an entire kit most of spells and champions have to be retweaked for their utility. Right now Tanky dps > almost everything because they are so difficult to stop.

Slayer91

Ireland23464 Posts

March 15 2011 20:13 GMT

#1145

How come we are seeing plenty of comps based around strong Mage/Ranged DPS with support and 2 tanks? (In high level games, stuff like mummy/cho/nunu etc), and almost no more than 1 tanky dps in comps? (usually olaf or irelia)

TheYango

United States47024 Posts

March 15 2011 20:14 GMT

#1146

On March 16 2011 04:57 phyvo wrote:
Maybe some high Eloers tipped Riot off or something but they don't complain on the official forums so I wouldn't know.

If that's the case, I don't currently see it being reflected in bans/picks on streams/in tournaments.

Though I do remember Quality Player making a thread about it a few days ago--which surprised me because I didn't think that "tanky DPS imba" complaints would extend to that high an Elo.

spinesheath

Germany8679 Posts

March 15 2011 20:19 GMT

#1147

There is this champ who can easily 1v1 your ranged DPS even though he has quite a gold disadvantage. He also is among the tankiest champs on the enemy team thus discouraging your team from focusing him. The result: ranged DPS has to run and dies anyways because of higher base speed, dash, Triforce or Ghostblade.
This looks really unfair from the ranged DPS's point of view. Even if you build some defenses, as soon as the "tanky DPS" gets out of stunlock for 2 seconds, you're dead.

That's my guess why this "tanky DPS" hate came up. Since I have no idea what Riot actually means by "tanky DPS", I cannot be sure at all. Not even saying the stuff above is a problem.

dismiss

United Kingdom3341 Posts

March 15 2011 20:31 GMT

#1148

I agree with Phrost that melee DPS, at least from riots prospective, need an inherently stronger skillset than ranged DPS to make them viable in the slightest. But of course riot has gone overboard with this and made some of them so strong that they can be as sturdy as tanks and deal pretty much the same damage as ranged characters while still having the better kit.

kxr1der

United States213 Posts

March 15 2011 20:58 GMT

#1149

nocturnes early game damage output is pretty crazy and he is probably the most fun champ ive played. im still not sure what to build on him late game though. should i build tank like say irelia or more as/ad like tryn?

Mogwai

United States13274 Posts

March 15 2011 20:59 GMT

#1150

I plan on building Nocturne exactly like Jarman

wriggles -> Ghostblade -> GA + BV in jungle
Ghostblade -> GA + BV -> BC in Lane

Woony

Germany6657 Posts

March 15 2011 21:04 GMT

#1151

Is he 'tanky' at all or more like a Yi?

kxr1der

United States213 Posts

March 15 2011 21:07 GMT

#1152

i find him to be very squishy and you also have to be careful when you ult, not to do it too far away from your team or you will go down fast.

Slayer91

Ireland23464 Posts

March 15 2011 21:07 GMT

#1153

Who cares if some ranged DPS are losing 1v1s? High end games are still dominated by ranged DPS which is a hint that having a team protecting your ranged DPS is generally always going to be extremely strong. The strongest 1v1 builds are some balance of tank and DPS anyway. Enough tank that you can't get bursted and enough DPS that you can either kill your target fast enough if he's high DPS or lifesteal enough to survive if he's a tank.

Tanky DPS just means champs that build at least partially tank and do a lot of damage.
Examples: Cho'gath, malphite. Rammus/amumu/shen can do some damage but not really close to chogath or malphite. Renektron/Irelia probably fall into this category, but I'm not too sure about Xin zhao or like Jax.

TheYango

United States47024 Posts

March 15 2011 21:12 GMT

#1154

Does Wriggles->Triforce seem like it would work on Nocturne?

kxr1der

United States213 Posts

March 15 2011 21:19 GMT

#1155

On March 16 2011 06:12 TheYango wrote:
Does Wriggles->Triforce seem like it would work on Nocturne?

i was thinking of trying this when i got out of class, i havent been jungling with him because im bad at it but the triforce could be good on him, the only problem is he has slightly long cooldowns. Last game I built brutilizer - merc- IE and the IE was kind of underwhelming, i died really fast. Im really think BT might be really good on him.

he is such an amazing ganker though so i really should jungle, if you ult in and pop w immediatly you will almost always get the AS buff and a kill. currently i just start roaming at 6 and its worked pretty good.

TheYango

United States47024 Posts

March 15 2011 21:21 GMT

#1156

On March 16 2011 06:19 kxr1der wrote:
i was thinking of trying this when i got out of class, i havent been jungling with him because im bad at it but the triforce could be good on him, the only problem is he has slightly long cooldowns. Last game I built brutilizer - merc- IE and the IE was kind of underwhelming, i died really fast. Im really think BT might be really good on him.

he is such an amazing ganker though so i really should jungle, if you ult in and pop w immediatly you will almost always get the AS buff and a kill. currently i just start roaming at 6 and its worked pretty good.

BF items are iffy on junglers cuz unless you're farming/ganking super well, you won't be able to back with 1850 in your pocket at once.

Mogwai

United States13274 Posts

March 15 2011 21:23 GMT

#1157

On March 16 2011 06:12 TheYango wrote:
Does Wriggles->Triforce seem like it would work on Nocturne?

name a character that builds Wriggles where Wriggles -> Triforce doesn't "work".

I mean, it might not always be optimal, but it's always pretty effective in my experience.

LoCicero

1100 Posts

March 15 2011 21:26 GMT

#1158

I don't know if Riot understands how strong Leblanc is. I personally think she is the strongest burst caster in the game hands down. We'll see how long it takes them to realize this.

NeoIllusions

United States37500 Posts

March 15 2011 21:27 GMT

#1159

On March 16 2011 06:23 Mogwai wrote:

Show nested quote +

name a character that builds Wriggles where Wriggles -> Triforce doesn't "work".

I mean, it might not always be optimal, but it's always pretty effective in my experience.

Wiggle's Triforce is great because of the wide slew of stats it provides. HP, MP, AP, MS, life steal, and a bunch of procs for two item slots. It's just so versatile and cost effective pieces (compared to a BF or NLR which is expensive but just one stat). It be the new IE/LW, sup?

Mogwai

United States13274 Posts

March 15 2011 21:27 GMT

#1160

On March 16 2011 06:26 LoCicero wrote:
I don't know if Riot understands how strong Leblanc is. I personally think she is the strongest burst caster in the game hands down. We'll see how long it takes them to realize this.

2 weeks ago I would've called bullshit on this, but running into Maknoob's smurf a few times has shown me the light. That bitch is fucking crazy, nerf plz.