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On March 16 2011 00:53 Unentschieden wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2011 22:09 TheYango wrote:On March 15 2011 21:29 DrKlingmann wrote:On March 15 2011 20:14 Goshawk. wrote:
Experience
* When more than 1 champion is sharing experience, 10% extra experience is split among all targets
* Two champions each gain 55%, up from 50%
* Three champions each gain 36.7%, up from 33.3%
* Four champions each gain 27.5%, up from 25%
* Five champions each gain 22%, up from 20%
Another dual lane buff... Any idea how was it before? I know there was dual lane buff before.. but i don't know specifics. Any1 knows what is the difference between 6 month ago and now aside from the fact that 'there was a buff'? They reduced the amount of XP that minions give when only one person is gaining experience. I'm assuming that this implicitly reverts that (because it makes no sense for 1 person to get a penalty AND for 2 people to get a bonus--use one or the other as the baseline value). It´s a relative strenghtening of duolaners. Right now duolane benefits "low resource" champions too much and 2v1 is too far in favour of the 1 guy.
Define "low resource", I'm not sure what you mean by that term.
Trying to balance 2v1 vs jungling to the point where both are equally viable is an unattainable and even an undesirable goal, for a number of reasons:
- There are many strong 1v2 champions who throw off the balance considerably.
- There are many strong 2v1 duos who also throw off the balance.
- The more 2v1 is buffed the more the complete exp deny strategy becomes viable, which isn't interesting or healthy for the game.
- Jungling helps make the game interesting to watch due to ganks, counter-ganks etc. These are also easier to pick up on as a live commentator (it's a lot easier to miss a critical moment when everyone is straight laning).
- Gangplank screws up balance like crazy on both ends.
- Most of Jungling's largest advantages at this point barely come into play at low Elo (jungle control, roaming etc.) so trying to make 2v1 viable in higher brackets will simply push low Elo to 2/1/2 every game anyway.
Hopefully Riot figures this out and gives up on the notion.
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On March 16 2011 01:54 Seuss wrote:- There are many strong 1v2 champions who throw off the balance considerably.
no
there are no champs that can effectively 1v2
the best you can hope for is your opponents to push the lane instead of just outright killing you, which good opponents will do every time. even if they push the lane they'll probably just take the tower unless you're one of a handful of champs with 2 aoe damage spells
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United States47024 Posts
On March 16 2011 00:53 Unentschieden wrote:
It´s a relative strenghtening of duolaners. Right now duolane benefits "low resource" champions too much and 2v1 is too far in favour of the 1 guy.
You sort of missed what I was saying. From patch 1.0.0.107:
Solo lanes will see a slight reduction in their experience gain. Junglers and Dual lanes will be unaffected.
With this new change, it means that unless they're reverting this, solo lanes use some modified amount of XP gain, and duo lanes also use some modified amount of XP gain with no group actually using the base value. It makes no sense for them to implement this change without reverting the previous one because it makes the mechanics around XP gains overly clunky.
If solo laners get 0.9x the base amount of XP gain and duo laners get 1.1x the base amount, why would you not just set the amount solo lanes get to the base value, and have duo laners get 1.2x the base amount? Having a variable in there that you don't use and gets modified twice is needlessly clunky design.
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Low resource champions are ones that do well when everyone has low Levels/XP and Items/Gold. Prime examples are Alistar and Taric.
Junglers should be optional. Everyone being locked into a 1/1/2 + J setup is boring.
- 2v1 setups being imba is a reason to patch not to not do something about it.
- XP deny is desireable because it is a VERY offensive and risky strat. It also means the lane is horribly unbalanced and the XP denied one is being outplayed. You can´t XP deny without overextending horribly.
- Actually not only Junglers can gank. It is played like that right now because once good opportunities pop up the Jungler takes it - thus everyone simply sits in lane and waits for the jungler to be offensive. Many complain about Mia calls but how often do you really see a nonjungler gank nowadays? In a not top elo game especially?
- Gankplank is a mess regardless. He has changes announced to remove his deny.
- Low elo runs 2/1/2 anyway despite it being a bad idea already.
@Yango: Junglers have a 1 xp modifier. In terms of the modification solo gets penalised and duo buffed - meaning that overall leveling is now slightly closer. The idea was for bot lane not to feel like second class Players.
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United States47024 Posts
On March 16 2011 02:18 Unentschieden wrote:
@Yango: Junglers have a 1 xp modifier. In terms of the modification solo gets penalised and duo buffed - meaning that overall leveling is now slightly closer. The idea was for bot lane not to feel like second class Players.
That's not a reason to have all those modifiers, because junglers use an entirely different set of monsters. If you want junglers to have intermediate XP gains, then just adjust jungle monster XP numbers accordingly. Keeps the game from getting mechanically too contrived.
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The main reason jungle will never be optional is because of buffs. Red buff on a carry from level 1 on is stupid strong, same with blue on certain champs. At the very least, a jungle lets you prevent the other team from taking your buffs. Not to mention a jungle against a non jungle means the jungle has a free ticket to map control, and getting map control is the fastest way to win. And with the entire jungle one can stay at solo level the whole game. And jungles make the game much better to watch, and much less passive.
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United States47024 Posts
On March 16 2011 02:31 Two_DoWn wrote:
The main reason jungle will never be optional is because of buffs. Red buff on a carry from level 1 on is stupid strong, same with blue on certain champs. At the very least, a jungle lets you prevent the other team from taking your buffs. Not to mention a jungle against a non jungle means the jungle has a free ticket to map control, and getting map control is the fastest way to win. And with the entire jungle one can stay at solo level the whole game. And jungles make the game much better to watch, and much less passive.
Even if you decreased the value of jungle buffs and removed Dragon, I think you still wouldn't see 2-1-2 lanes. You'd see what DotA is now, which is 1-1-1 + 2 roamers--the jungler is just a roamer that happens to be good at clearing neutral camps quickly. LoL is already slowly moving toward 1-1-1 with 1 jungler and 1 roamer, as the duo lane support these days is spending less and less time actually in the duo lane.
Optimal gold distribution is always going to be to have 3 guys get all the gold, and have 2 remaining guys work with non-gold-dependent champs. That's just the way it works.
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On March 16 2011 02:18 Unentschieden wrote:
- XP deny is desireable because it is a VERY offensive and risky strat. It also means the lane is horribly unbalanced and the XP denied one is being outplayed. You can´t XP deny without overextending horribly.
eh, that's not true
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Looks like it's time to switch from Malphite to Rammus. Malphite completely crippled this patch. Lost the ability to jungle, nerfed his early laning power, and shaved up to 60 dmg from his primary spell.
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On March 16 2011 03:06 UniversalSnip wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 02:18 Unentschieden wrote:
- XP deny is desireable because it is a VERY offensive and risky strat. It also means the lane is horribly unbalanced and the XP denied one is being outplayed. You can´t XP deny without overextending horribly. eh, that's not true
It is.
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On March 16 2011 03:24 Unentschieden wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 03:06 UniversalSnip wrote:On March 16 2011 02:18 Unentschieden wrote:
- XP deny is desireable because it is a VERY offensive and risky strat. It also means the lane is horribly unbalanced and the XP denied one is being outplayed. You can´t XP deny without overextending horribly. eh, that's not true It is.
Actually, unless against something like Shaco, it's really safe to deny from lvl 1 all the way until lvl 3 or 4, when the solo laner should still be lvl 1-2. After that point, the junglegank can't accomplish anything.
Most people just are really bad 2v1. You can't lasthit pretty much at all, unless you pick gangplank. With gangplank 2v1 instawins vs anything when played correctly.
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On March 16 2011 01:54 phyvo wrote:
The buff to vorpal spikes makes me want to do malady based attack speed build on him though, lol.
Too bad he's melee.
Cho has 130 range and an amazing animation. IMO Nashor's Cho OP, vorpal spikes all day.
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On March 16 2011 03:30 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 03:24 Unentschieden wrote:On March 16 2011 03:06 UniversalSnip wrote:On March 16 2011 02:18 Unentschieden wrote:
- XP deny is desireable because it is a VERY offensive and risky strat. It also means the lane is horribly unbalanced and the XP denied one is being outplayed. You can´t XP deny without overextending horribly. eh, that's not true It is. Actually, unless against something like Shaco, it's really safe to deny from lvl 1 all the way until lvl 3 or 4, when the solo laner should still be lvl 1-2. After that point, the junglegank can't accomplish anything. Most people just are really bad 2v1. You can't lasthit pretty much at all, unless you pick gangplank. With gangplank 2v1 instawins vs anything when played correctly.
This is the primary reason you can't balance 2v1 and jungling. If you balance standard 2v1 play to the point where it's even with jungling, assuming such a thing were even possible, the complete exp deny becomes so ridiculously strong that jungling isn't viable.
This is why gtrsrs says there are no champions good at 1v2. If the lane is pushed there are solo champions who can deal with it, but there isn't a solo champion who can deal with a complete exp deny.
The only way to balance around this is to extend the range of tower and/or exp range of creeps to the point where top and bottom are essentially the same as mid.
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On March 16 2011 03:33 Niton wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 01:54 phyvo wrote:
The buff to vorpal spikes makes me want to do malady based attack speed build on him though, lol.
Too bad he's melee. Cho has 130 range and an amazing animation. IMO Nashor's Cho OP, vorpal spikes all day.
too bad his base ASPD is sooo loooow
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I remember Phreak actually revealing that dblades give g/10 on esl tourney stream.
As for Kass, I've seen him banned on US plenty of times.
WTF is with no Swain, Shen, Ashe, and Corki nerfs? And I'm glad some champs can now beat Sions in lane early but his AP ratios are still retarded.
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On March 16 2011 02:33 TheYango wrote:
Optimal gold distribution is always going to be to have 3 guys get all the gold, and have 2 remaining guys work with non-gold-dependent champs. That's just the way it works.
No. You just state that but you give absolutely no reason why it would be that way.
It is very possible that an additional 1k on a champ with low farm outweighs the effects that same 1k would have on a champ who already spent 4k. It's also possible to design the game in a way that makes a 20/20/20/20/20 spread desireable.
Granted, this is not how LoL works right now. But we have seen changes to items that are key to the concentrated gold approach, like IE. Riot could also continue nerfing champs that work well without lots of gold, so that you might not even have any non-gold-dependant champs to choose from. Stacking ALL the gold on a single champ doesn't work in LoL either.
Duo lane vs solo lane + roamer is not only about the gold, anyways. It's a lot about experience. And in fact the roamer allows for similar levels on 4 champs (3 solos + jungle), instead of 3 champs at a high level and 2 at a low level. Who knows, maybe we'll see a "metagame" where the roamer leeches quite a bit of XP from each lane and thus keeps the levels as even as possible for all 5 champs.
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On March 16 2011 03:30 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 03:24 Unentschieden wrote:On March 16 2011 03:06 UniversalSnip wrote:On March 16 2011 02:18 Unentschieden wrote:
- XP deny is desireable because it is a VERY offensive and risky strat. It also means the lane is horribly unbalanced and the XP denied one is being outplayed. You can´t XP deny without overextending horribly. eh, that's not true It is. Actually, unless against something like Shaco, it's really safe to deny from lvl 1 all the way until lvl 3 or 4, when the solo laner should still be lvl 1-2. After that point, the junglegank can't accomplish anything. Most people just are really bad 2v1. You can't lasthit pretty much at all, unless you pick gangplank. With gangplank 2v1 instawins vs anything when played correctly.
By the time anyone has a decent opening to do anything about this, a good chunk of the damage has already been done. Also, giving up lane control as mid just to go, and equalize the situation top for a bit, doesn't seem too good either.
Most of my games, I don't have a jungler on my team, unless I pick one myself. Low elo players can't make the most out of their junglers, so they prefer to go the 2-1-2 route. Actually, I don't know either. I can mostly disregard the lane setups when I play, i.e. go 1v2 and not get killed or denied, or pretty much ignore the fact that the other team has a jungler, but that's because I'm a baddie playing against others of my ilk.
So, how to make a jungler vs no jungler setup work properly? Or rather, what to do as a jungler to gain an advantage?
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I went 1v2 the other day vs Swain Urgot top. It was pretty brutal because they're REALLY strong and can harass you even at your tower. They're so strong, in fact, that even if the jungler completely stopped jungling and came to help you after taking blue buff, you'd still lose the 2v2 because junglers tend to be weak laners (in my case the jungler was udyr -> completely useless when he came to help).
In the event that your solotop end up in this shitty situation, a few things that MUST happen with you as jungler:
A) you need to give mid the red/blue/ganking support ...whatever it takes for him to crush his lane. It's imperative that he wins his lane. Do NOT take the jungle buffs for yourself. Give-buffs-to-mid (not top, btw, because the buff isn't enough to let top win 1v2).
Since they don't have a jungler, their mid lane is going to be their weakness. It's going to be your red-buffed mid + constant jungle roaming vs their solomid. ->
Their mid gets crushed. ->
Your mid has the breathing space to constantly help top.
B) repeatedly coordinate 3-man ganks with mid on the 2v1 top to give the solo top breathing space and farm.
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United States47024 Posts
On March 16 2011 03:54 spinesheath wrote:
No. You just state that but you give absolutely no reason why it would be that way.
It is very possible that an additional 1k on a champ with low farm outweighs the effects that same 1k would have on a champ who already spent 4k. It's also possible to design the game in a way that makes a 20/20/20/20/20 spread desireable.
The discussion is with regard to the laning phase. 1k going on a champ that has 1k vs one that has 4k is not a scenario relevant to laning, because the laning phase starts with everyone at 475 gold--at which point it's pretty much unquestionable that the more farm-dependent champs are the ones that should be getting more from the get-go. It may change later down the line (e.g. once your carry has damage, its good to let your support bulk up), but by that point, the laning phase has ended, and how you're distributing people in lanes is no longer relevant, because you're very likely to not be laning anymore. It's relevant to who cleans up pushed lanes, but that's a separate issue.
On March 16 2011 03:54 spinesheath wrote:
Granted, this is not how LoL works right now. But we have seen changes to items that are key to the concentrated gold approach, like IE. Riot could also continue nerfing champs that work well without lots of gold, so that you might not even have any non-gold-dependant champs to choose from. Stacking ALL the gold on a single champ doesn't work in LoL either.
Gold-dependence is a relative thing. Getting rid of Janna doesn't suddenly make people want to split gold evenly, it just makes people play the next most gold-independent champ with low-farm. This does happen in tournament games--when true low-farm supports aren't available (through bans or prior picking), high level teams shoehorn champs that are otherwise gold-reliant like Shen and Morgana into the low-farm support role.
As an aside, I don't see 20/20/20/20/20 being a good idea, at least for a game that's as solo queue-centric as LoL. If it's suboptimal for you to be picking up farm, it makes it that much harder for you to carry bads that aren't going to be making use of the farm as well as you.
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EPT
