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Cho has 2 hard AoE CCs and a 800 true damage nuke ready to kill whoever is jumping on your carry.
Blitz has a very low cooldown knockup, a pull and an AoE silence.
Janna has an AoE Knockup, a slow, an AoE knockaway that also heals, a shield and a movespeed passive.
Caitlyn has a slow and a root.
Heimer is kinda similar to a tank when he has 2 turrets with ult set up. Those turrets basically say "don't go there", much like Cho with Feast up.
Lux has a root and a slow.
Fiddle has a single target fear and an semi-AoE silence. I personally find tank/cdr fiddle interesting (Randuin's!), but I am too bad with him in general to make it work.
Roots don't even prevent spells or attacks.
Kockup is pretty much the best type of CC in the game; can't be cleansed, can't be QSS'd, prevents casts and autoattacks, cancels channels and stops you from moving. And occasionally you will shoot someone to the moon.
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Gosh shen and malph bot are so damn pro, epic malphite and shen ults all game lol
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On February 03 2011 00:14 spinesheath wrote:
Janna has an AoE Knockup, a slow, an AoE knockaway that also heals, a shield and a movespeed passive.
I was being ironic after you called Janna a tank. The most critical quality a champion must have before I'll even consider calling it a tank, is being naturally tough. If your team needs someone to tank dragon, baron, a turret, or go in first in a teamfight? That's the tank's job, most of the time. Janna doesn't do any of these, save perhaps teamfight initiating to disperse the enemy team with her ult. Routinely taking a lot of damage for her team is not in her job description, and she is not a tank (neither are Cait, Heim, Lux, or Fiddlesticks if you're wondering).
I'd sooner call Morde a tank than Janna, even though the former has no CC whatsoever; pre-nerf Garen was 100% tank, even though his only CC was a melee range, single-target Silence.
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On February 03 2011 00:57 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 00:14 spinesheath wrote:
Janna has an AoE Knockup, a slow, an AoE knockaway that also heals, a shield and a movespeed passive. I was being ironic after you called Janna a tank. The most critical quality a champion must have before I'll even consider calling it a tank, is being naturally tough. If your team needs someone to tank dragon, baron, a turret, or go in first in a teamfight? That's the tank's job, most of the time. Janna doesn't do any of these, save perhaps teamfight initiating to disperse the enemy team with her ult. Routinely taking a lot of damage for her team is not in her job description, and she is not a tank (neither are Cait, Heim, Lux, or Fiddlesticks if you're wondering). I'd sooner call Morde a tank than Janna, even though the former has no CC whatsoever; pre-nerf Garen was 100% tank, even though his only CC was a melee range, single-target Silence.
Quote from breaking 1600 thread
On December 01 2010 18:16 spinesheath wrote:
I wonder what EU rating 1600 US compares to...
How to become a 1600 EU player: Read TL, buy wards, understand that Janna is a tank and Morde is not.
Learn that killing champions is not the goal of the game.
Think you have a pretty hefty disagreement going on.
In the end it comes down to: A tank is pointless if he isn't taking damage for your team, mostly in teamfights, and considering items compose of how tough your character is, the later the game goes on the more tanky janna will become, while morde will just be a decent damage that can't be killed by any burst champs. Obviously characters with things that give them survivability are going to be less item dependent and can tank without a lot of items this can lead to a: Building some DPS items to make you more useful when you aren't taking much damage or b: allow you to do ridiculous dives and be very annoying to any squishies (hi mundo!) and c: You can tank early game while our janna is still too low hp, however early game you don't really need a tank that much anyways.
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On February 03 2011 00:57 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 00:14 spinesheath wrote:
Janna has an AoE Knockup, a slow, an AoE knockaway that also heals, a shield and a movespeed passive. I was being ironic after you called Janna a tank. The most critical quality a champion must have before I'll even consider calling it a tank, is being naturally tough. If your team needs someone to tank dragon, baron, a turret, or go in first in a teamfight? That's the tank's job, most of the time. Janna doesn't do any of these, save perhaps teamfight initiating to disperse the enemy team with her ult. Routinely taking a lot of damage for her team is not in her job description, and she is not a tank (neither are Cait, Heim, Lux, or Fiddlesticks if you're wondering). I'd sooner call Morde a tank than Janna, even though the former has no CC whatsoever; pre-nerf Garen was 100% tank, even though his only CC was a melee range, single-target Silence.
The question is: What defines a tank?
IMO it's the ability to keep your carry safe. By which means is not specified any further.
I guess pretty much everyone else always tacks "must have tons of EHP" on it as well.
Janna doesn't take the damage directly, she uses her shield to take damage and the excessive amount of CC to prevent damage from being dealt. She also uses her heal to recover damage taken. Overall she mitigates a lot of damage for her team. She is not an initiating tank or a "tough tank", although a well played Janna is neigh impossible to kill.
Garen never was a tank. He's a melee DPS. Before the changes he was a tough melee DPS, now he's a fast melee DPS.
If you build Fiddle with Randuins, he should - in theory - be able to take damage for his team as well as initiate fights. Just ult that tower together with a minion wave - if the enemy team retreats, you just take the tower, and if they stay... should be fun. Armor + Drain should allow him to take quite a few tower shots.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 03 2011 02:05 spinesheath wrote:
The question is: What defines a tank?
IMO it's the ability to keep your carry safe. By which means is not specified any further.
I guess pretty much everyone else always tacks "must have tons of EHP" on it as well.
I always defined tank as being able to do 3 things:
1) Initiate fights
2) Mitigate damage on yourself
3) Protect your team's squishies
Covering some, but not all of those categories will put you into support or beefy DPS--but IMO the term "tank" applies strictly to champs that can do all 3.
On February 03 2011 02:05 spinesheath wrote:
Janna doesn't take the damage directly, she uses her shield to take damage and the excessive amount of CC to prevent damage from being dealt. She also uses her heal to recover damage taken. Overall she mitigates a lot of damage for her team. She is not an initiating tank or a "tough tank", although a well played Janna is neigh impossible to kill.
There's no "initiating tank" or "tough tank"--the actual tanks in this game like Amumu and Rammus do all 3 of the above.
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as long as jana has a shield, the shield is taking damage away from ur team. jana is also a decent initiator/lifesaver with her ulti. i dunno how much different is jana tank capabilities from taric f.e.
ppl arent gona focus him on the start of the fight, he will just put his ultimate up. its his stun, armor aoe and heal that make him a priority.
no one is gona start atacking cho just because. same with amumu. so does that makes them notanks?
if u dont consider her a tank u are basicaly saying that only taunt characters can tank. rammus shen and galio...
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United States47024 Posts
On February 03 2011 02:11 misirlou wrote:
as long as jana has a shield, the shield is taking damage away from ur team. jana is also a decent initiator/lifesaver with her ulti. i dunno how much different is jana tank capabilities from taric f.e.
ppl arent gona focus him on the start of the fight, he will just put his ultimate up. its his stun, armor aoe and heal that make him a priority.
I don't consider Taric a tank either.
And Janna ulti as an initiating skill? Wut?
On February 03 2011 02:11 misirlou wrote:
if u dont consider her a tank u are basicaly saying that only taunt characters can tank. rammus shen and galio...
The beefiness isn't for forcing people to hit you. The beefiness is because initiation naturally puts you in the middle of 5 guys, and if you were squishy, you'd be dead before your team could follow up.
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On February 03 2011 02:09 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 02:05 spinesheath wrote:
The question is: What defines a tank?
IMO it's the ability to keep your carry safe. By which means is not specified any further.
I guess pretty much everyone else always tacks "must have tons of EHP" on it as well. I always defined tank as being able to do 3 things: 1) Initiate fights 2) Mitigate damage on yourself 3) Protect your team's squishies Covering some, but not all of those categories will put you into support or beefy DPS--but IMO the term "tank" applies strictly to champs that can do all 3. Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 02:05 spinesheath wrote:
Janna doesn't take the damage directly, she uses her shield to take damage and the excessive amount of CC to prevent damage from being dealt. She also uses her heal to recover damage taken. Overall she mitigates a lot of damage for her team. She is not an initiating tank or a "tough tank", although a well played Janna is neigh impossible to kill. There's no "initiating tank" or "tough tank"--the actual tanks in this game like Amumu and Rammus do all 3 of the above.
1) cyclone-> either seperates the other team or knocs up. good initiator from the bush.
run in+ulti-> can send 2 heros to the tower, send away the other 3 and split a 4v5 into a 4v2 and 4v3
even her shield can initiate. put it on someone like tristana, she jumps, ultis and gets away.
2) shield?!?!!?!?!!?
3) ulti+shield+slow+knocup.
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Janna's shield is strictly to counter initation. You really can't use it if your own team initiated a fight, and you're really stupid or your team is really winning if you Flash/ulti to initate.
Anyways, just think of a tank as a wall. You take the damage and stops the enemies from passing you while your squishies are guarded. To that end, single-target cc's make for unreliable tanking. Cho's great. Alistar's great. Nunu's good too. Udyr could as well. Shen obviously. Galio's good for tanking purposes. Basically, a champ that's more or less "I cannot run past him, but cannot kill him either" make the best true tanks.
I never really see rammus as a true tank because he's more or less just a really REALLY fucking tanky assassin who also does a shitload of AoE damage. If you start classifying rammus as a tank, then you pretty much have to make Garen a true tank, or Sion.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 03 2011 02:17 misirlou wrote:
1) cyclone-> either seperates the other team or knocs up. good initiator from the bush.
run in+ulti-> can send 2 heros to the tower, send away the other 3 and split a 4v5 into a 4v2 and 4v3
even her shield can initiate. put it on someone like tristana, she jumps, ultis and gets away.
...you just suggested that your carry blow an escape to jump in the middle of 5 guys and initiate.
Did it not occur to you how WRONG that could go?
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So who is actually a tank by your definition then?
Janna doesn't initiate fights when it's 5v5 poking next to a tower, instead she improves the poking and counters any initiation the enemy might attempt. Janna can initiate on the enemy team that is doing a dragon/baron with a full duration Q, forcing enemies out of position. It's not as strong as Malph or Ashe ult, but then again those 2 are no tanks (Malph is not capable of protecting carries past his ult).
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Requesting title change to [Patch Notes] WHAT'S A TANK, THEN?
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On February 03 2011 03:41 dnastyx wrote:
Requesting title change to [Patch Notes] WHAT'S A TANK, THEN?
None of the champions in League of Legends are tanks. Blitzcrank, being mechanical, is thematically closest, but he lacks the treads or armaments of an actual tank. Kog'maw isn't far behind with his artillery and new live ammunition skin, though.
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On February 03 2011 02:51 spinesheath wrote:
So who is actually a tank by your definition then?
Janna doesn't initiate fights when it's 5v5 poking next to a tower, instead she improves the poking and counters any initiation the enemy might attempt. Janna can initiate on the enemy team that is doing a dragon/baron with a full duration Q, forcing enemies out of position. It's not as strong as Malph or Ashe ult, but then again those 2 are no tanks (Malph is not capable of protecting carries past his ult).
garen, shen, amumu, galio, cho...
could go on, but i don't think i need to.
Nobody is disagreeing that janna has a sick amount of cc and utility for her role (support). it's all in the definition of the word tank, and I think most people agree that a tank is someone or something that can soak up a ton of damage
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Enlighten me, how does Garen tank? He can run in (and die or do no damage) for initiation, he can silence a single target and he can spin on a tough anti-carry in an attempt to get him off his carry.
And where is the big difference between Shield + Heal + CC and having lots of HP?
Oh well, whatever.
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On February 03 2011 04:43 spinesheath wrote:
Enlighten me, how does Garen tank? He can run in (and die or do no damage) for initiation, he can silence a single target and he can spin on a tough anti-carry in an attempt to get him off his carry.
And where is the big difference between Shield + Heal + CC and having lots of HP?
Oh well, whatever.
The biggest thing that makes Janna not a tank is that without itemizing it for it specifically, she's incredibly squishy - most of the support + sidelane champions (Sona, Lux, Janna, Soraka, Zilean) have some of the lowest baseline health / armor totals in the game at level 1, though some grow into more survivable champions as the game goes on.
Janna actually has a relatively high amount of armor at 18 - 77.4, the same as Alistar/Blitz/Shaco and a tick above Taric / Soraka / Zilean, but 1760 health, 77 armor and 30 MR without any self-focused survival skills isn't really 'I want you to hit me' material.
Taric got marked as a tank because his baseline stats are extremely tank-heavy (134 armor 1v1!), and he doesn't fill the melee or caster archetypes as well as he fits the 'doesn't die' archetype. I suspect Amumu is tagged for similar reasons, and Cho'gath could be tagged here as well, though he's a very competent tanky caster so it's not like Taric/Amumu where they don't really DO much aside from eat buttons and dictate fights.
'Bruiser' seems to be a tag for DPS that are more tanky than average for whatever reason, be it strong base stats (Nunu, Singed), the ability to be built tanky and still perform as a DPS (Cho), or having abilities which actively increase your TTL (Vlad, Poppy).
tl;dr: Tank is a catch-all both for champions whose primary purpose involves them having a taunt or for tanky champions which don't adequately fit into other categories. Amumu and Alistar aren't fearsome DPS presences, and Taric's sub-theme isn't adequately explained as 'dps' or 'caster'.
fun fact: Ryze has the third highest base armor in the game, fourth highest including Taric + Shatter.
edit: https://spreadsheets0.google.com/ccc?key=tGtYuuZzXpcShHUAb2pUPYg&hl=en&authkey=CKvx9s4K#gid=2 is my source; it's a pretty amazing tool you should all bookmark imoimo.
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On February 03 2011 04:43 spinesheath wrote:
Enlighten me, how does Garen tank? He can run in (and die or do no damage) for initiation, he can silence a single target and he can spin on a tough anti-carry in an attempt to get him off his carry.
And where is the big difference between Shield + Heal + CC and having lots of HP?
Back when Garen didn't suck, he could tank because no one wanted to go toe to toe with him. He would stand at the front of his team formation, and enemy champions would know that being anywhere near him was painful and fruitless. Could someone like Olaf Ragnarok + Ghost in and go right past Garen? Yes; you pretty much can't stop that unless you're Anivia. However, the enemy glass cannons couldn't get close and follow up on this disruption, because they still had to lose half their health in the process and possibly die to Demacian Justice.
Garen couldn't really stop anyone from advancing on his squishies, but he was a huge deterrent because he'd mess you up if you got close to him- which means that for the most part, you didn't. The ideal tank scenario is, "I can't kill him but I also can't get past him"; in Garen's case, for the most part it was "I can't kill him and if I try to get past him, he'll mess me up". Did he protect his squishies? Damn right he did.
CC is CC and tanking is tanking. I can see why you make the connection since CC helps you perform one of the tasks of tanking - protecting your squishies - but that's just one part of the puzzle.
For the most part, a shield is just as good as more HP. The problem is that most tanks bring more than just HP to the table in terms of survivability; Alistar has CC and his ult which makes him ludicrously tough; Old Garen had high base stats and 25 free armor and mres from Courage, as well as an active damage reduction move; Rammus gets 150 armor and mres from DBC; Amumu has a very strong ult which makes enemies not want to be close to him. Tanks make it so that hitting them or being around them sounds like a lousy idea; in Janna's case, you DO want to hit her, and you DO want to be close to her; she can prevent that by running away and CC'ing you, but that's kiting, poking and disengaging. It has common elements with tanking in that it helps protect your squishies, but that's not what most people understand by 'tanking'.
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EPT
