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Senx
Sweden5901 Posts
On June 16 2011 09:45 Odds wrote: I don't get it. Why would this post deserve a ban? It's in the thread where stuff like this is explicitly allowed. What? Where does it say its allowed to randomly insult people? Just because its a general thread doesn't make insults ok. | ||
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Odds
Canada1188 Posts
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
Cass has less range, more restrictions, worse early game in exchange for what? An aoe ulti that can really only be used to stun someone who is diving on you? There is a reason that urgot is a decent pick and cass just isnt: the actual reward you get when playing her well is just not all that good. I would argue her teamfight presence is actually WORSE than urgots, because you cannot initiate with your ultimate, you have no go to move if you are zoned away from any squishies (urgot can still throw q's and auttoatacks at people), and your only real option is to throw down a slow and e the tanks as they run at your carry. In a chase she is amazing. But that happens MAYBE once a game, and even then, ryze and urgot can do the job just as well. Cass brings nothing to the table. IMO she needs to have her sources of damage normalized. I'm all for keeping the poison interaction, but the way it is currently, working off the cd, doenst really work. It is TOO much of a restriction. Make it so you do bonus damage if the opponent is poisoned. Have it slow like urgots w. Make it so that it renews poison or adds a poison stack for each consecutive e hit. But when you have to keep a character deliberately up and restricted because "she'd be unbelievably op" you have a problem with design. | ||
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Senx
Sweden5901 Posts
Its just not needed and doesn't add anything to the discussion. | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31495 Posts
On June 16 2011 09:53 Two_DoWn wrote: But if you want to compare, urgot and cass fulfill a very similar role. One is a physical caster, one is magic. Yet, for the sort of kit that cass has (ie, target 1 person, kill them over a period of time, move on to the next) the restriction she has is MUCH worse than urgots. Urgot can hit as many q's as he likes, no matter what. He dominates early, and even late game he is capable of doing tremendous damage to squshies from range. He has one of the best tower pokes in the game. Cass has less range, more restrictions, worse early game in exchange for what? An aoe ulti that can really only be used to stun someone who is diving on you? There is a reason that urgot is a decent pick and cass just isnt: the actual reward you get when playing her well is just not all that good. I would argue her teamfight presence is actually WORSE than urgots, because you cannot initiate with your ultimate, you have no go to move if you are zoned away from any squishies (urgot can still throw q's and auttoatacks at people), and your only real option is to throw down a slow and e the tanks as they run at your carry. In a chase she is amazing. But that happens MAYBE once a game, and even then, ryze and urgot can do the job just as well. Cass brings nothing to the table. IMO she needs to have her sources of damage normalized. I'm all for keeping the poison interaction, but the way it is currently, working off the cd, doenst really work. It is TOO much of a restriction. Make it so you do bonus damage if the opponent is poisoned. Have it slow like urgots w. Make it so that it renews poison or adds a poison stack for each consecutive e hit. But when you have to keep a character deliberately up and restricted because "she'd be unbelievably op" you have a problem with design. Fair points. I will agree that her restrictions do allow for much less 'freebie' damage like an E>Q or even Q spam on Urgot allows, and your last point about design. Cass's tower poke is nothing to sneeze at; the range is decent and the W poison enables easy tower pushing while poking (slowing minions, damaging them before they reach your team allows for quicker clearing) while zoning the enemy team off the turret . I would say that positioning is much more key on Cass and while you can be zoned away from a battle a little easier than Urgot (All he has is E/Q in that case, his autoattack sucks) she will ultimately contribute a lot more than he can if she is allowed to. Her range is not bad at all and the AoE stun/slow while forcing her to get close also ccs an entire team allowing her time to escape. I would also argue even without her ult Urgot is more screwed when he gets caught or chased off by a tank than she is (at least the way I play her). Rylai's slow + poison slow + 15% MS from Q allows her to escape a lot of situations quite well. (I also like to run Boots 3 on her 'cause I'm a baddy and like to be 100% sure I don't get caught.) I don't think the poison restriction is her problem IF she has any. All the issues with her you mentioned above have little to do with the poison and Twin Fang interaction, hell if anything the range of her E forces you to get right into a battle which is more of the whole inferior range/zoning thing than a problem with poison. She definitely doesn't need the slow on E. | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
Now look at cass. If a squshy overextends, what does she need to do? First, hit a q. Then use the speed boost to move in range, then hit as many qs as possible. At the point that the poison runs out, she is done. She cant follow, because e's range is so short, and she cant execute a chase in the same way urgot can with an e-qqq combo. Basically, the interaction limits the amount of damage she can do when she is zoned because she is unable to begin doing damage immediately after an overextension or a break in the zoning. That's why I feel the interaction is bad design on a caster for this type of champion. | ||
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JokerSan
United States306 Posts
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WaveofShadow
Canada31495 Posts
Her speed after hitting a Q can be likened to MF's passive, Cass's range with E can be compared to MF's autoattack (except E does more damage and has longer range) and each of them can still be zoned out of a fight completely. Cass has better cc however, arguably better overall AoE and single target damage, and thought her kiting takes more skill, she can kite better than MF, especially with Rylai's as compared to an MF with red. Yet I bet you would argue that MF is more viable in a competitive setting than Cass, wouldn't you? (I will admit though MF is one of the more lackluster AD ranged in the recent meta, however) It all comes down to positioning, the new ranged AD carries could be argued to be overpowered (Cait/Vayne) because they don't have to worry nearly as much about positioning in a teamfight, especially Cait who can stand WAY back and auto to her heart's content, while Vayne can reposition at will and stealth if in trouble. Yet before these two came out, MF was hella strong in a tourney setting and you still had to position her properly to do well. I think if you want to argue that Cass is bad because of her zoning issues it's probably more accurate to argue Urgot is OP because he barely has to worry about being zoned at all. | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
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WaveofShadow
Canada31495 Posts
On June 16 2011 11:03 Two_DoWn wrote: In non me complaining about cass news, yorick looks like a baws http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_U6JEkQ09k&feature=player_embedded Let's agree on this. :D | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
On June 16 2011 11:03 WaveofShadow wrote: Ok, what if you compare her to a ranged AD, like Miss fortune? Her speed after hitting a Q can be likened to MF's passive, Cass's range with E can be compared to MF's autoattack (except E does more damage and has longer range) and each of them can still be zoned out of a fight completely. Cass has better cc however, arguably better overall AoE and single target damage, and thought her kiting takes more skill, she can kite better than MF, especially with Rylai's as compared to an MF with red. Yet I bet you would argue that MF is more viable in a competitive setting than Cass, wouldn't you? (I will admit though MF is one of the more lackluster AD ranged in the recent meta, however) It all comes down to positioning, the new ranged AD carries could be argued to be overpowered (Cait/Vayne) because they don't have to worry nearly as much about positioning in a teamfight, especially Cait who can stand WAY back and auto to her heart's content, while Vayne can reposition at will and stealth if in trouble. Yet before these two came out, MF was hella strong in a tourney setting and you still had to position her properly to do well. I think if you want to argue that Cass is bad because of her zoning issues it's probably more accurate to argue Urgot is OP because he barely has to worry about being zoned at all. MF is fundamentally different from cass and urgot because she is a ranged dps, not a ranged caster. She works the same as urgot when zoned, only even less so because she can just auto for more damage than urgot, and spam qs to hit squishies anyway. My point isnt about speed or positioning or kiting. Sure it matters, but cass' main problem is that her e-q interaction FORCES a delay on her ability to do damage. That means that where urgot can just auto, or MF can auto, cass HAS to hit a q, then start to e. I dont care how fast you can click q-e, there is a much larger delay for that then there is for a simple right click. So no. You cant compare her to mf because they are different styles of characters. Even if you try, MF still wins. | ||
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Shiragaku
Hong Kong4308 Posts
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On June 16 2011 09:51 Odds wrote: It wasn't an insult to anyone in particular, just an expression of playful displeasure at the various BS that was going on. Not remotely deserving of a ban, or even a formal warning really. Pretty sure the founder of the site knows what is and isn't bannable, and I think you can use the forum feedback for that. How does this have anything to do with LoL? On June 16 2011 11:09 Two_DoWn wrote: My point isnt about speed or positioning or kiting. Sure it matters, but cass' main problem is that her e-q interaction FORCES a delay on her ability to do damage. That means that where urgot can just auto, or MF can auto, cass HAS to hit a q, then start to e. I dont care how fast you can click q-e, there is a much larger delay for that then there is for a simple right click. By the way, if you QE as quickly as possible the poison doesn't trigger in time for E and it goes on cooldown, and that's quite troublesome. | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31495 Posts
My point isnt about speed or positioning or kiting. Sure it matters, but cass' main problem is that her e-q interaction FORCES a delay on her ability to do damage. That means that where urgot can just auto, or MF can auto, cass HAS to hit a q, then start to e. I dont care how fast you can click q-e, there is a much larger delay for that then there is for a simple right click. Here's where I think you miss the mark. Urgot CAN'T just auto. His range is horrendous. If you mean he can Q, sure he can, if you want to hit minions or tanks. If you mean E>Q, then yeah, but then that ability ALSO hinges on an interaction that becomes necessary for Urgot to poke/deal damage effectively. (read: to maximum potential) You're also ignoring the fact that Cass's W deals damage and adds poison as well, and is arguably easier to apply. This adds multiple ways of stacking poison for you to land E. And the only potential delay is the E itself IF you E at the wrong time. She will always be doing damage whether with W (weak) or Q (strong in its own right. 0.9 AP ratio). There is no forced delay on her damage, just a potential forced delay on her INSANE burst damage. (read: maximum potential) Compare any other caster and see what kind of delays they have on their burst. I guess in the end we're disagreeing on the poison mechanic altogether. You don't like it, while I find it interesting and rewarding. I am enjoying the debate though, for what it's worth. | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
Here is the thread where I lay out my problem if anyone here is tech savvy enough to help me out http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=233601 | ||
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BlackPaladin
United States9316 Posts
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
On June 16 2011 11:19 WaveofShadow wrote: Here's where I think you miss the mark. Urgot CAN'T just auto. His range is horrendous. If you mean he can Q, sure he can, if you want to hit minions or tanks. If you mean E>Q, then yeah, but then that ability ALSO hinges on an interaction that becomes necessary for Urgot to poke/deal damage effectively. (read: to maximum potential) You're also ignoring the fact that Cass's W deals damage and adds poison as well, and is arguably easier to apply. This adds multiple ways of stacking poison for you to land E. And the only potential delay is the E itself IF you E at the wrong time. She will always be doing damage whether with W (weak) or Q (strong in its own right. 0.9 AP ratio). There is no forced delay on her damage, just a potential forced delay on her INSANE burst damage. (read: maximum potential) Compare any other caster and see what kind of delays they have on their burst. I guess in the end we're disagreeing on the poison mechanic altogether. You don't like it, while I find it interesting and rewarding. I am enjoying the debate though, for what it's worth. The situation that I bring up with autos is if somehow the zone breaks or a squishy overextends into urgot's auto and cass' e range. The case then is who can do more damage to that squishy. Urgot can auto immediately, as well as throw qs. Cass has to poison them in order to unleash her actual dps spell. There is a delay there. And for someone who is supposed to deal sustained dps, anything that puts a damper on her ability to deal her constant dps is just wrong. I feel 2 things about the poison mechanic. First, it isnt rewarding. You have to hit it, otherwise you are screwed. It doesnt reward, only punish. Second, you consider cass a burst caster. IMO that is completely and utterly wrong. She is a ranged sustained dps character, it is just hidden behind a facade. She is a magic version of urgot, as is ryze. IMO what holds her back is that when she was designed, they got stuck between "well, do we make her a burst caster or sustained dps" so they gave her a sustained kit with the cooldowns and damage ratios of bursty dps. In q, w, and e are all sustained skills. They do consistent damage over a period of time. Yet, they made 2 mistakes. First, her ap ratios are too high, to the point that she bursts people. Second, her cooldowns are messed up for e. Without poison it is too long, with it it is too short. Combined with her high ap ratios, she creates the impression of a burst caster. To prevent her being op, riot put the poison restriction on e. All this does is destroy her. It permanently traps her in the sustained burst role because she is unable to do sustained dps until she gets poison off, and when she does she bursts really hard. IMO in order for her to actually be balanced into a decent spot, they need to normalize the cooldown on e. Have it always be 2 seconds or something like that. Cut her ratio on e, then give it a different interaction based on poison. Actually have it reward poison, like applying a debuff or dealing bonus damage. She needs to be what she she was always meant to be: sustained dps. | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
On June 16 2011 11:45 BlackPaladin wrote: Are you sure you have the correct wireless card? >.> Internet works fine on every other wireless connection I have ever had. So it isnt the computer. | ||
r33k
Italy3402 Posts
On June 16 2011 11:17 Shiragaku wrote: I am surprised there is little complaining about the attacks on PvP.net People are actually making fun of lulzsec because they managed to do less damage than Riot does on patch days. | ||
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Tooplark
United States3977 Posts
My thoughts on the Cass debate (didn't it start because someone said she was bad like 8 pages ago or something?): She's a ranged DPS that excels at kiting and has absolutely insane damage. I mean seriously, good base damage and .9 AP ratio is gonna punch through tanks even if you're only getting 2 sec CD on it. Is spellvamp a good buy on her? Also, how do I explain to noob-friend why Archangel is not a good first item on Cass or Malz? Poll: What is Rugfeeder most known for? Feeding (10) Smurfing (3) Eating (2) 15 total votes Your vote: What is Rugfeeder most known for? | ||
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