On June 16 2011 02:50 Slayer91 wrote: Zilean ultimate. Amumu ultimate. Rumble ultimate. These are game changingly good ultimates, you're trying to say not having an ultimate is "slightly weaker at 6/11/16"? They are weaker after 6. A soraka can do nothing but press R in the middle of a teamfight and still be more effective than a soraka being played perfectly but with her ultimate on cooldown. This is because teamfights are all about a short 5-10-20 second duration and having a long cooldown ultimate is much better than having inferior skills with a shorter cooldown.
That's a bad line of reasoning, because by that argument, champs with low-cooldown spammable ults are similarly weak because of how front-loaded long-cooldown ults are when their CDs are up--which fails because some low-CD ult champs like Anivia and Swain are among the best teamfighters in the game.
On June 16 2011 06:12 Mogwai wrote: I have an almost 2.1K elo opinion that no one actually cares about this conversation...
correct me if i'm wrong but you primarily play top lane solo champs, yes? kass, ww, jarvan, lane dominators? i'm not saying your opinion is invalid by any means and i respect you as a player, but invoking your elo in this conversation is akin to a couple guys arguing about what's wrong with their car broke down on the side of the road and then one guy goes "hey guys i'm a doctor i think i know what i'm talking about i have a degree" imo imo imo
Shikyo invoked Elo first and that was just Smash's reply
ah, my mistake sorry i just don't even bother reading shikyo's posts any more so i assumed smash was talking to me and barsbsq and spine s heath. carry on then
On June 16 2011 02:50 Slayer91 wrote: Zilean ultimate. Amumu ultimate. Rumble ultimate. These are game changingly good ultimates, you're trying to say not having an ultimate is "slightly weaker at 6/11/16"? They are weaker after 6. A soraka can do nothing but press R in the middle of a teamfight and still be more effective than a soraka being played perfectly but with her ultimate on cooldown. This is because teamfights are all about a short 5-10-20 second duration and having a long cooldown ultimate is much better than having inferior skills with a shorter cooldown.
That's a bad line of reasoning, because by that argument, champs with low-cooldown spammable ults are similarly weak because of how front-loaded long-cooldown ults are when their CDs are up--which fails because some low-CD ult champs like Anivia and Swain are among the best teamfighters in the game.
Meh, they still have extremely powerful ultimates, along with a very good skillset. Their ultimates are mana dependent more than cooldown dependent in this case.
From my experience playing against them, I'm usually pretty happy whenever I see a Cass or Karma on the enemy team, instead of a Vlad / Swain / Janna. Maybe it's different at higher ELO, but as far as I can tell, both Cass and Karma are pretty bad.
On June 16 2011 02:50 Slayer91 wrote: Zilean ultimate. Amumu ultimate. Rumble ultimate. These are game changingly good ultimates, you're trying to say not having an ultimate is "slightly weaker at 6/11/16"? They are weaker after 6. A soraka can do nothing but press R in the middle of a teamfight and still be more effective than a soraka being played perfectly but with her ultimate on cooldown. This is because teamfights are all about a short 5-10-20 second duration and having a long cooldown ultimate is much better than having inferior skills with a shorter cooldown.
That's a bad line of reasoning, because by that argument, champs with low-cooldown spammable ults are similarly weak because of how front-loaded long-cooldown ults are when their CDs are up--which fails because some low-CD ult champs like Anivia and Swain are among the best teamfighters in the game.
Meh, they still have extremely powerful ultimates, along with a very good skillset. Their ultimates are mana dependent more than cooldown dependent in this case.
Which means it's totally reasonable for an "ult-less" champion to be fine, provided the kit is strong enough (IMO Udyr's and Karma's aren't--a tanky DPS without strong gap-closing tools and a support/AP that has one of the weakest slows in the game as her only CC don't match up well with the other available options). Meaning that their problem isn't their lack of an ult.
I'm really sad that I missed the whole Cass argument...not that arguing with Shikyo seems to be productive in any way. Cass is one of the few champions I can actually say I KNOW something about and....I have no idea what he's on with delay times and maxing Q first and all that bweezness.
In any case, I would agree with the argument that there are plenty of casters that are more valuable on a team than Cass, however she is an excellent farmer/DPSer and just has to be very careful during the teamfight stage...but then again what ranged carry doesn't? Her ultimate is bugged out---sometimes it stuns, sometimes it doesn't and champion direction often seems to have no bearing on which it is, and that's kind of annoying but it's still a HEAVY AOE nuke.
All in all, excellent champion, viewed as UP, is clearly not. Man I remember back in the day when people thought the same shit about Urgot and I played him....
On June 16 2011 08:27 WaveofShadow wrote: All in all, excellent champion, viewed as UP, is clearly not. Man I remember back in the day when people thought the same shit about Urgot and I played him....
TBH I think both champs share something in that they don't quite slot in well into the conventional team composition that many people expect with 1 AD carry and 1 AP carry.
If you run Urgot instead of having one of the normal ranged AD champs, then you'll have issues chipping towers lategame, and unless he's doing super well, he won't necessarily get the damage output one of the other ranged AD champs had. If you run him over an AP solo, your damage is going to be slanted heavily toward physical damage.
If you run Cassi instead of having one of the normal AP carries, then you're going to notice the comparative lack of CC/utility she has (no matter how conditional you see her ult as, it just won't match up to stuff like Annie's Tibbers, Anivia's entire kit, or Vladimir's damage amp and ability to not die). If you run her as a ranged DPS, then your damage will be very magic-slanted.
Neither are bad champs IMO, but I don't think you can just shoehorn them into a lot of teamcomps and expect them to be good.
On June 16 2011 08:27 WaveofShadow wrote: All in all, excellent champion, viewed as UP, is clearly not. Man I remember back in the day when people thought the same shit about Urgot and I played him....
TBH I think both champs share something in that they don't quite slot in well into the conventional team composition that many people expect with 1 AD carry and 1 AP carry.
If you run Urgot instead of having one of the normal ranged AD champs, then you'll have issues chipping towers lategame, and unless he's doing super well, he won't necessarily get the damage output one of the other ranged AD champs had. If you run him over an AP solo, your damage is going to be slanted heavily toward physical damage.
If you run Cassi instead of having one of the normal AP carries, then you're going to notice the comparative lack of CC/utility she has (no matter how conditional you see her ult as, it just won't match up to stuff like Annie's Tibbers, Anivia's entire kit, or Vladimir's damage amp and ability to not die). If you run her as a ranged DPS, then your damage will be very magic-slanted.
Neither are bad champs IMO, but I don't think you can just shoehorn them into a lot of teamcomps and expect them to be good.
Exactly my point. Each one is BOSS if running a kiting comp though. Also in terms of sheer damage output (not lane domination though) I would argue Cass>Urgot in terms of teamfight utility and kiting since her abilities are AoE. Also her lasthit animation is better. (Fuck Urgot's autoattack range.) Comparing AD to AP in this case though seems like comparing apples and oranges though.
In any case I will continue to play her any chance I get and win at low elo since people don't even know who she is.
On June 16 2011 08:27 WaveofShadow wrote: All in all, excellent champion, viewed as UP, is clearly not. Man I remember back in the day when people thought the same shit about Urgot and I played him....
TBH I think both champs share something in that they don't quite slot in well into the conventional team composition that many people expect with 1 AD carry and 1 AP carry.
If you run Urgot instead of having one of the normal ranged AD champs, then you'll have issues chipping towers lategame, and unless he's doing super well, he won't necessarily get the damage output one of the other ranged AD champs had. If you run him over an AP solo, your damage is going to be slanted heavily toward physical damage.
If you run Cassi instead of having one of the normal AP carries, then you're going to notice the comparative lack of CC/utility she has (no matter how conditional you see her ult as, it just won't match up to stuff like Annie's Tibbers, Anivia's entire kit, or Vladimir's damage amp and ability to not die). If you run her as a ranged DPS, then your damage will be very magic-slanted.
Neither are bad champs IMO, but I don't think you can just shoehorn them into a lot of teamcomps and expect them to be good.
Exactly my point. Each one is BOSS if running a kiting comp though. Also in terms of sheer damage output (not lane domination though) I would argue Cass>Urgot in terms of teamfight utility and kiting since her abilities are AoE. Also her lasthit animation is better. (Fuck Urgot's autoattack range.) Comparing AD to AP in this case though seems like comparing apples and oranges though.
In any case I will continue to play her any chance I get and win at low elo since people don't even know who she is.
Only urgot requires a single e, on a large aoe radius to basically win a lane. Plus he has a slow. And q's will eat a full quarter of a squishy's life bar.
Cass has no where near that much instant burst, less over time (since maintaining e's and poisons is next to impossible with q poison duration being so short and the likelyhood of having wear off and landing and e, triggering the full cd).
I just think that while the interaction between poison and e on her is nice, they need to do a better job of standardizing the interaction so that she can be much more sustained dps.
Holy shit, easily the sweetest LoL gameplay video I've ever seen. WTB more like that.
Only urgot requires a single e, on a large aoe radius to basically win a lane. Plus he has a slow. And q's will eat a full quarter of a squishy's life bar.
Cass has no where near that much instant burst, less over time (since maintaining e's and poisons is next to impossible with q poison duration being so short and the likelyhood of having wear off and landing and e, triggering the full cd).
I just think that while the interaction between poison and e on her is nice, they need to do a better job of standardizing the interaction so that she can be much more sustained dps.
Cass has a slow too. And it's better because Urgot can only kite one person while Cass can theoretically kite a whole team. Even better when you have your Rylai's.
I already mentioned Urgot's lane domination is easily superior to Cass's, hell even to almost all champs in the game. I was talking about teamfight utility. A single-target suppress (that can put you in harm's way) and single-target slow is inferior to AoE slow/kiting/stun in a teamfight. Better initiation by Urgot maybe if done properly, but meh.
If you think Cass's burst damage is not good, you probably have not been playing her right, TBH. She destroys squishies just as easily as Urgot, minus the insane range IF his E is landed.Triggering the full cd on Cass's E isn't even the worst thing in the world when you're trying to get distance between you and slowed enemies anyway. Put bluntly, if Cass could sustain that amount of DPS without the poison restriction, she'd be unbelievably OP.
EPT
