On June 16 2011 05:30 Seuss wrote: I don't think the delay due to range on E is as large as you think it is. Watch her cooldown she kills a near-max range creep in this video:
If you watch carefully you can see that she doesn't cast E until just after the 9 second mark, and her cooldown is back just after the 10 second mark. Slightly more than a second possibly elapsed, but not more than 1.2 seconds. Certainly nothing close to the 2-2.5 seconds you asserted.
Ehhh I've played like 50+ games with her I think I know what the delay is like, also that's not max range and that doesn't account for the travel time, which would according to your calculations of 1.2 seconds make it a total of 1.9sec delay when not max range, and that is assuming that you time the click perfectly.
On June 16 2011 04:19 Mogwai wrote: now that they're going to be unique, not passive. gold/10 has always been passive. might be cool if they go the SC2 Queens route though and instead make you click on the damn thing every 10 seconds to inject 5 gold into your bank account.
whoops! that's what i meant. unique. but i love the idea of making them clickable to up your gold. that would certainly make playing a support more interesting *lol* as well as making a carry be less herp-buy-gold/5-and-derp-win-the-game i suppose
On June 16 2011 04:19 Mogwai wrote: and like, isn't the point that you're making not about acquiring gold/10, not HP or AP specifically? I mean, sure, getting reverie quicker is better in the short term, but if you're trying to gear up for late game based on the idea that you're not last hitting, every support will do AOK just grabbing kage + philo + HoG. And I mean, you can also simulate the 2 philo effect pretty well by just quickly upgrading 1 to a miracle (or reverie) and then sitting on Miracle + Philo in lane. *shrugs*, I just see a lot of kage + philo + HoG based builds in the future if they don't do anything else to g/10.
i guess my point was this philo stone is incredibly good item because it gives the mana regen that a support hero needs to spam heal, in addition to the gold/10 AND it's low cost. kage's pick is a decent item because it gives a tiny boost to your (heal/shatter/musical note/shield), and is relatively cheap (though not as efficient). it's possible that you can build it into DFG but most supports won't. HoG is the most expensive of the gold/5 items and i feel like randuin's is the worst upgraded gold/5 for a support to build (other than GB obv). on taric however it's very synergistic and nice
so what i'm getting at is i think supports will probably just build philo->kage's-> real items now except taric, who can delay real items even further and still get use (and more gold/10) out of HoG
On June 16 2011 04:40 spinesheath wrote: Gold/10 on supports is overrated in general. Philo is great because of its highly efficient regen stats. But as a support, you don't get the farm to grab a couple of gold/10 items early enough to make them pay off before the game is over. At least not if you're buying wards. Gold/10 is great if the game is still not decided 35+ minutes in, but maybe such a long game is a direct result of stacking stat-inefficient items like Pick and HoG...?
no, you're just wrong again. it's easy to get your first philo if you open regrowth and have 3 avarice quints. you don't even need last hits then you can pick it up really quickly. and support farm comes from (a) assists, which you should get a shit-ton of and (b) open lanes after teamfights if you survive. even in competitive games i always have time to pick up 2-3 gold/10 items before i have to start worrying about real items. also a good support doesn't need to buy wards nonstop. as long as you place them at good intervals and in good spots, wards are really cheap, not a money sink at all
On June 16 2011 05:53 spinesheath wrote: Enemy is heading straight towards the carry line. If you miss that poison stop playing LoL.
Autoattackers don't get 200 base damage at level 9. They cap out at something like 110 at level 18.
Stun, slow, movespeed buff: I think she's got a decent kit for kiting. Similar to Ashe and way better than MF.
Instead of thinking, play her like that. You can't even max E vs anything but melee because you get totally raped by anything that doesn't get hit by every Q. Not to mention that when you do hit Q it's more beneficial for your damage to have the Q maxed instead of E.
On June 16 2011 05:30 Seuss wrote: I don't think the delay due to range on E is as large as you think it is. Watch her cooldown she kills a near-max range creep in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CW6enFHnx3s
If you watch carefully you can see that she doesn't cast E until just after the 9 second mark, and her cooldown is back just after the 10 second mark. Slightly more than a second possibly elapsed, but not more than 1.2 seconds. Certainly nothing close to the 2-2.5 seconds you asserted.
Ehhh I've played like 50+ games with her I think I know what the delay is like, also that's not max range and that doesn't account for the travel time, which would according to your calculations of 1.2 seconds make it a total of 1.9sec delay when not max range, and that is assuming that you time the click perfectly.
What do you mean it doesn't account for the travel time? E goes on cooldown just after 9 seconds. E is off cooldown just after 10 seconds. Cast time is instant. Where am I failing to factor in travel time?
1.2 seconds isn't a calculation, it's an observation of the time between the spell going on cooldown and coming off. I'd be more inclined to say it's only 1.1 seconds honestly but I was being generous for your benefit.
On June 16 2011 05:30 Seuss wrote: I don't think the delay due to range on E is as large as you think it is. Watch her cooldown she kills a near-max range creep in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CW6enFHnx3s
If you watch carefully you can see that she doesn't cast E until just after the 9 second mark, and her cooldown is back just after the 10 second mark. Slightly more than a second possibly elapsed, but not more than 1.2 seconds. Certainly nothing close to the 2-2.5 seconds you asserted.
Ehhh I've played like 50+ games with her I think I know what the delay is like, also that's not max range and that doesn't account for the travel time, which would according to your calculations of 1.2 seconds make it a total of 1.9sec delay when not max range, and that is assuming that you time the click perfectly.
What do you mean it doesn't account for the travel time? E goes on cooldown just after 9 seconds. E is off cooldown just after 10 seconds. Cast time is instant. Where I am failing to factor in travel time?
1.2 seconds isn't a calculation, it's an observation of the time between the spell going on cooldown and coming off. I'd be more inclined to say it's only 1.1 seconds honestly but I was being generous for your benefit.
Cast time obviously isn't instantaneous, as if you do the math, if the difference between it being casted and coming off cooldown is 1.2 seconds and the refresh is to 0.5 seconds it means that the travel time is .7 seconds which means that an attack cycle is 1.9 seconds which means that she'd be a ranged dps who requires poison to hit and has an aspd of 0.5
Btw I have 1800 and 2200 elo opinions that you guys have no idea what you're talking about
On June 16 2011 05:56 gtrsrs wrote: hyooge wall of txt
you make the assumption that taric is equally good with all 3 gold items, while other supports arent, but im pretty sure its the exact opposite. all supports could easily use the extra hp cushion from hog, with the exception of soraka. and yet, tbh i feel like philo is the worst g/10 item on taric imo. he has imbahealz for hp sustain while roaming, and i'd much rather snag a s00per cheap mana manip for the mana rather than the philo, but i dont even do that and just say fuck that to g/10 and get drings which give u ap, mana regen and hp, whaddayakno a single item that gives all the things those 3 items give.
On June 16 2011 04:40 spinesheath wrote: Gold/10 on supports is overrated in general. Philo is great because of its highly efficient regen stats. But as a support, you don't get the farm to grab a couple of gold/10 items early enough to make them pay off before the game is over. At least not if you're buying wards. Gold/10 is great if the game is still not decided 35+ minutes in, but maybe such a long game is a direct result of stacking stat-inefficient items like Pick and HoG...?
no, you're just wrong again. it's easy to get your first philo if you open regrowth and have 3 avarice quints. you don't even need last hits then you can pick it up really quickly. and support farm comes from (a) assists, which you should get a shit-ton of and (b) open lanes after teamfights if you survive. even in competitive games i always have time to pick up 2-3 gold/10 items before i have to start worrying about real items. also a good support doesn't need to buy wards nonstop. as long as you place them at good intervals and in good spots, wards are really cheap, not a money sink at all
I carried my way up to 1800 as Janna, you'd figure I know how much money goes into wards.
There aren't even a "shit-ton" of kills in competitive games, where do you get that "shit-ton" of assists from? Especially if you run Avarice Quints and thus are forced to play comparatively passively. In higher ranked games, you often see first blood a good 10-12 minutes into the game.
On June 16 2011 05:56 gtrsrs wrote: hyooge wall of txt
you make the assumption that taric is equally good with all 3 gold items, while other supports arent, but im pretty sure its the exact opposite. all supports could easily use the extra hp cushion from hog, with the exception of soraka. and yet, tbh i feel like philo is the worst g/10 item on taric imo. he has imbahealz for hp sustain while roaming, and i'd much rather snag a s00per cheap mana manip for the mana rather than the philo, but i dont even do that and just say fuck that to g/10 and get drings which give u ap, mana regen and hp, whaddayakno a single item that gives all the things those 3 items give.
i'm trying to show that it's NOT an assumption. taric is a frontline support hero and thus in more need of the HP to absorb some damage for his carry, who he'll be standing in front of, not behind (unlike sona/soraka). the HoG then builds into randuins for him which makes him even BETTER in the frontline.
comparatively, soraka/sona should be grabbing the kindlegem instead, for the increased CDR and faster shurelia's, which is monumental in swaying/starting/escaping teamfights
additionally, if you'd rather pay 475g for a mana manipulator (most of which the additional cost goes into turning it into an aura) and the ROAM (where your aura will benefit exactly 0 people) than pay 800g for a philo which pays for itself, then you are smoking the same stuff that smash is on
d-rings are great, i stack them on janna and occasionally warwick but i think they're just outclassed by philo stones on most champs
On June 16 2011 06:12 Mogwai wrote: I have an almost 2.1K elo opinion that no one actually cares about this conversation...
correct me if i'm wrong but you primarily play top lane solo champs, yes? kass, ww, jarvan, lane dominators? i'm not saying your opinion is invalid by any means and i respect you as a player, but invoking your elo in this conversation is akin to a couple guys arguing about what's wrong with their car broke down on the side of the road and then one guy goes "hey guys i'm a doctor i think i know what i'm talking about i have a degree" imo imo imo
On June 16 2011 06:12 spinesheath wrote: I carried my way up to 1800 as Janna, you'd figure I know how much money goes into wards.
There aren't even a "shit-ton" of kills in competitive games, where do you get that "shit-ton" of assists from? Especially if you run Avarice Quints and thus are forced to play comparatively passively. In higher ranked games, you often see first blood a good 10-12 minutes into the game.
avarice quints are mandatory on support they don't make you play any more passively than you would wtf it's not like when you're the support in a support/carry lane that you just rambo into the other team. you camp brush, provide zoning power, harass when applicable, and heal your carry. it's not like +3% MS or +60HP is going to let you do something that avarice quints won't.
also i agree. by "shit-ton" i meant a lion's share. supports are usually involved in the majority of the kills since they're on the carry's nuts all day and the carry should be getting the kills. even 3-4 assists in the early game is a "shit-ton" to me, and more than enough to fuel the purchasing of several g/10 items, oracles, and wards + boots
On June 16 2011 05:30 Seuss wrote: I don't think the delay due to range on E is as large as you think it is. Watch her cooldown she kills a near-max range creep in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CW6enFHnx3s
If you watch carefully you can see that she doesn't cast E until just after the 9 second mark, and her cooldown is back just after the 10 second mark. Slightly more than a second possibly elapsed, but not more than 1.2 seconds. Certainly nothing close to the 2-2.5 seconds you asserted.
Ehhh I've played like 50+ games with her I think I know what the delay is like, also that's not max range and that doesn't account for the travel time, which would according to your calculations of 1.2 seconds make it a total of 1.9sec delay when not max range, and that is assuming that you time the click perfectly.
What do you mean it doesn't account for the travel time? E goes on cooldown just after 9 seconds. E is off cooldown just after 10 seconds. Cast time is instant. Where I am failing to factor in travel time?
1.2 seconds isn't a calculation, it's an observation of the time between the spell going on cooldown and coming off. I'd be more inclined to say it's only 1.1 seconds honestly but I was being generous for your benefit.
Cast time obviously isn't instantaneous, as if you do the math, if the difference between it being casted and coming off cooldown is 1.2 seconds and the refresh is to 0.5 seconds it means that the travel time is .7 seconds which means that an attack cycle is 1.9 seconds which means that she'd be a ranged dps who requires poison to hit and has an aspd of 0.5
Btw I have 1800 and 2200 elo opinions that you guys have no idea what you're talking about
Mogwai that's US elo
You misunderstand me. When I say "it comes off cooldown", I mean it is available to cast. I do not mean "the cooldown has been reset to .5 seconds" or "we are presently waiting for Twin Fang to land on our opponent". The entire attack cycle is 1.2 seconds, including cast, time to target, damage and the reset.
I'm not in on the Ranged DPS argument anyway. I'm just pointing out that E's effective cooldown on a poisoned target is not anywhere near 2-2.5 seconds as you asserted.
On June 16 2011 06:12 Mogwai wrote: I have an almost 2.1K elo opinion that no one actually cares about this conversation...
correct me if i'm wrong but you primarily play top lane solo champs, yes? kass, ww, jarvan, lane dominators? i'm not saying your opinion is invalid by any means and i respect you as a player, but invoking your elo in this conversation is akin to a couple guys arguing about what's wrong with their car broke down on the side of the road and then one guy goes "hey guys i'm a doctor i think i know what i'm talking about i have a degree" imo imo imo
Shikyo invoked Elo first and that was just Smash's reply
additionally, if you'd rather pay 475g for a mana manipulator (most of which the additional cost goes into turning it into an aura) and the ROAM (where your aura will benefit exactly 0 people) than pay 800g for a philo which pays for itself, then you are smoking the same stuff that smash is on
d-rings are great, i stack them on janna and occasionally warwick but i think they're just outclassed by philo stones on most champs
er, on my roam taric i tend to chill in lanes for awhile and top off ppl/rambo at their opponents and fuck them when they get to ~lvl 10, and thats usually about when i would consider buying a mana manip, so seems fine to me.
as far as philo stones paying for themselves, well the only stats useful to you are the mana regen and the g/10, and there are faaaar better sources of JUST mana regen than philo stones, so really, what it comes down to is you are paying the philo-stone for the ability to make gold slowly.
think of it this way, say you have a giant, ugly piece of furniture that you got, but somehow it manages to generate money for you slowly over time. are you really gonna leave it in your house while it contributes exactly nothing to the house except to sell when it finally achieves enough money to pay for itself? now you may be asking, 'but bear, what do houses and ugly furniture have to do with League of Legends?', well replace the furniture with a philo stone and house with inventory
On June 16 2011 06:24 gtrsrs wrote: also i agree. by "shit-ton" i meant a lion's share. supports are usually involved in the majority of the kills since they're on the carry's nuts all day and the carry should be getting the kills. even 3-4 assists in the early game is a "shit-ton" to me, and more than enough to fuel the purchasing of several g/10 items, oracles, and wards + boots
3-4 assists earlygame in a carry + support lane makes me think of a feedfest type of game. I expect an average of 0.5-1 assists during the relevant first 12 minutes. If you stack more gold/10 items after that, it means that you lack efficient stats at 20-25 minutes where the game is likely to be decided.
EPT
