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On June 15 2011 22:07 rob.au wrote:
Phoenix udyr basically maxes turtle as first skill and you don't even have to buy madreds to be fast at killing the jungle, you can just go full tank. In fights you can rotate stun etc...while being a lot harder than tiger to kill.
The game has evolved both theoretically as well as through nerfs to tanky dps so phoenix isn't very good anymore and even old non locket phoenix might not be a great pick the way people play now.
TBH though phoenix udyr is a lot more interesting than Tiger, you could do more than just train some target for the kill.
You will kill golem and lizard slow as hell with pheonix stance, it only clears the small camps earlier, and in the early game. Tiger is maxing turtle second, so your turtle stance is maxed at like, level 11? That's like just midgame, most of the time before that is just ganking anyway.
I honestly don't understand what you're getting at to be honest. You can do all those things with tiger, except you spend some money into wriggles which is basically half a tank item and gives 5 gold/10 effective gold also on the ward. Pheonix and tiger stance are both designed to do damage, it just turns out that in both sustained and burst situations tiger does far more damage. If you "train one target" as tiger when you could be spamming stuns on people then it's probaby a better choice, since people usually aren't that clumped that spamming stuns is useful.
"In fights you can rotate stun etcc.." What is etcc? What utility does udyr provide other than his stun? Nothing. He just does some AoE damage and is hard to kill. With tiger at least he does high burst and sustained damage as well. Being a hard to kill target who does high damage and has sustainable cc is better than being slightly harder to kill because you use your cc and turtle more since your damage is worthless.
The only reason I see to play pheonix right now is that its prettier.
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Phoenix was only good when you could actually destroy minions because they didnt have mr. And Phoenix did damage. Then you could just go pure tank, get a locket and be great. Now? Only way to actually get through jungle quickly is to go ahead and tiger.
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On June 15 2011 23:45 Two_DoWn wrote:
Most blow (cass, panth, karma, trynd, twitch), some are stupidly annoying to play against (Eve, poppy, shaco, TF, urgot, Vlad), and the others really have no good reason as for why.
Hah.
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you will see the twitch renessaince soon enough
it has already begun
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Is it just me or has trolling ramped up like hardcore in solo ranked? It's the end of the season so no one really cares, but now I'm getting into it. Slowly learning that jungle heimer and sion are not viable. Kat is my number 1 favorite troll champ.
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Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
On June 16 2011 01:12 Two_DoWn wrote:
Can it southie
Cass and Karma are good. The Design Team considers Cass to be really good as she has the highest 1v1 dps of any AP Carry and has a lot of potential for horizontal growth. Karma is a do-anything sort of champ but requires really good management of your mantra. She's also held back a bit because she is item dependant but doesn't have the same oomph when given a solo lane compared to, say, ZIlean.
On a side note to the Udyr discussion, I've seen someone called Cerberian on the EU server who has a 62% win rate with solo top lane Tigerdyr. He has AD Reds, Dodge Yellows, scaling MRes Blues and APen Quints and 21/9/0 running SoS over Dodge+Nimbleness and uses Flash/Exhaust. Opens Dorans Blade, then continues to stack them early-mid game before getting Mercs and then Sheen into Triforce. After that he builds defensive. It's pretty beastly and does a surprising amount of damage at level 1. Later on, either you have to CC him down (in which case he's a good tank since he's eating CC for the rest of the team) or he just hits people like a truck.
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On June 16 2011 02:36 MoonBear wrote:Cass and Karma are good. The Design Team considers Cass to be really good as she has the highest 1v1 dps of any AP Carry and has a lot of potential for horizontal growth. Karma is a do-anything sort of champ but requires really good management of your mantra. She's also held back a bit because she is item dependant but doesn't have the same oomph when given a solo lane compared to, say, ZIlean.On a side note to the Udyr discussion, I've seen someone called Cerberian on the EU server who has a 62% win rate with solo top lane Tigerdyr. He has AD Reds, Dodge Yellows, scaling MRes Blues and APen Quints and 21/9/0 running SoS over Dodge+Nimbleness and uses Flash/Exhaust. Opens Dorans Blade, then continues to stack them early-mid game before getting Mercs and then Sheen into Triforce. After that he builds defensive. It's pretty beastly and does a surprising amount of damage at level 1. Later on, either you have to CC him down (in which case he's a good tank since he's eating CC for the rest of the team) or he just hits people like a truck.
hahahahahahahahahahahaha
are you shitting me? have you ever actually seen a geared up Karma's damage output and burst healing/shielding?
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Solo lane Karma has crazy oomph, what're you talking about? She has a double nuke (triple if you can land link on someone that lets it pass through enemies) on top of some sick shielding and AoE healing. She's just tough to slot into a team because she's this awkward nuker support (but much better at it than, say, Orianna).
Edit:
Ninja'd by Smash.
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Udyr and karma share the same problem in that not having an ultimate just makes them underpowered. Zilean without zilean ultimate? now you can start saying karma is better.
I imagine udyr top is going to be really good like just xin top because you don't worry so much about being underleveled and underfarmed so you just beast everyone. I just haven't tested it because it'll be seen as a serious troll.
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she also fucking destroys most solo lanes. I actually am curious to test Karma vs. Ramble in a solo lane, though I'm 99% sure that she'd still lose to WW.
EDIT: holy shit, I'll take nigga please for 500 Alex. stop with the no-ult = garbage shit, the character was designed knowing that they would have no ultimate and the kit was adjusted to account for this fact. It's not like they developed the fucking character thinking they'd have curse of the sad mummy and then at the last second were like, "you know what, fuck it, let's just drop the whole ult nonsense and run with it, that'll probably work!"
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She runs out of mana too fast against WW, she can probably jack Rumble up though because of that shield explosion.
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Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
On June 16 2011 02:38 Mogwai wrote:
hahahahahahahahahahahaha
are you shitting me? have you ever actually seen a geared up Karma's damage output and burst healing/shielding?
Admittedly, I haven't. Most times I see a Karma she's force her to duo bot and the ones I've seen who demand solo lane tend to suck badly and lose their lane. However, I would love to see a good Karma player. Theory tells me that she should win a lot of matchups though, but would require good management of her skills.
As an addition to what Smash said, ult-less champions are slightly weaker at 6, 11 and 16 due to no ult, but their kit will be stronger at the other levels by a bit in order to compensate. Having no ult shouldn't mean useless. At lvl 18 they should still have the same potential. The Design Team factors that into account.
Edit in reply to Smash: Sure. I'd love to see it in action. :D
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just grab me on my smurf sometime. she's probably my #2 guilty pleasure after LeBlanc.
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It's actually pretty faceroll to win a lane. Ignore W, use all your mantras to shield yourself or a creep to damage them, and generally pwn them. Being an AP nuker with a heal+shield makes you pretty strong in lane. The lack of sustained damage isn't a problem in lane.
You can also clear creep waves and gank faster than morgana.
Zilean ultimate. Amumu ultimate. Rumble ultimate. These are game changingly good ultimates, you're trying to say not having an ultimate is "slightly weaker at 6/11/16"? They are weaker after 6.
A soraka can do nothing but press R in the middle of a teamfight and still be more effective than a soraka being played perfectly but with her ultimate on cooldown. This is because teamfights are all about a short 5-10-20 second duration and having a long cooldown ultimate is much better than having inferior skills with a shorter cooldown.
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All of cass' problems would go away if hitting an e refreshed the poison debuff so you could keep going with that.
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On June 16 2011 02:50 Slayer91 wrote:
It's actually pretty faceroll to win a lane. Ignore W, use all your mantras to shield yourself or a creep to damage them, and generally pwn them. Being an AP nuker with a heal+shield makes you pretty strong in lane. The lack of sustained damage isn't a problem in lane.
You can also clear creep waves and gank faster than morgana.
Zilean ultimate. Amumu ultimate. Rumble ultimate. These are game changingly good ultimates, you're trying to say not having an ultimate is "slightly weaker at 6/11/16"? They are weaker after 6.
A soraka can do nothing but press R in the middle of a teamfight and still be more effective than a soraka being played perfectly but with her ultimate on cooldown. This is because teamfights are all about a short 5-10-20 second duration and having a long cooldown ultimate is much better than having inferior skills with a shorter cooldown.
I'M SAYING THAT WE'RE NOT COMPARING SORAKA WITH AN ULT TO SORAKA WITHOUT AN ULT, WE'RE COMPARING SORAKA TO FUCKING KARMA.
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On June 16 2011 02:50 Two_DoWn wrote:
All of cass' problems would go away if hitting an e refreshed the poison debuff so you could keep going with that.
That would be overpowered as hell, Cass is a very strong hero as it is.
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Only look at ryze. Similar character, yet he gets a snare to trap people. At least Cass would still have to kite out of safety if someone was running away.
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Except Cass does like 3x Ryze's damage, but yeah otherwise they're quite similar.
Edit:
You know what's also similar? Maokai and Jarvan.
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EPT
