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United States37500 Posts
On July 26 2011 01:18 Southlight wrote:
I've always built Taric AP, but I can't now because people bitch when you take farm lol.
Also I still don't like him if I'm allowed to take farm. If I'm allowed to farm I'd take Sona every day.
Yeah, this is pretty much the condition nowadays with AP Taric. Main reason why I can only run it in normals. On paper, AP Taric is great. Does everything Support Taric does but better (minus the warding). Problem is AP Taric requires a lot of farm, so you're going to be taking CS from whomever is laning with you. Add in the fact that if your team needs an AP, there are better options.
This is one of those instances where theorycraft doesn't really convert into practicality.
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She doesn't really force teammate into buying potions though, is my point. If you do, you're not playing her well/have a bad lane matchup.
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On July 26 2011 01:09 r33k wrote:
Janna and Taric are the only characters on whom Aegis is a viable item pickup.
How come other supports shouldn't get Aegis? I thought it was a good item for all supports?
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I loved AP taric as an addition to bruiser teams back when you could stack philo stones and keep his ult on all the time in teamfights.
I remember one game I had a lot of fun camping brushes bot lane as Veigar, can't remember who the other 3 people were and why we did well. I'm trying to think of all possible matchups but I feel he would be terrible in all of them.
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but... AP taric doesn't need any items if you just spec him for AP through runes/masteries. seriously i've hit the 20 minute mark with 3 doran's rings and boots and still been a force to be reckoned with. if you get any assists/towers at all you can throw in a blasting wand or NLR by 20 minutes and that's gg.
looking at my profile i average 34 creeps (most of which come in the midgame, after teamfights when i just run to a pushing lane and shatter a creepwave) and 10 assists over 32 games, and i can only think of 1 game in all of those that i didn't end the game with deathcap
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AP Sona can do essentially the same thing, but better, is more-or-less my point. And Sona's teamfight is significantly better because of DAT ULT.
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On July 26 2011 01:24 Southlight wrote:
She doesn't really force teammate into buying potions though, is my point. If you do, you're not playing her well/have a bad lane matchup.
If you look at all DH games that had a Janna pick you'll see that is the case. I believe that unless you're playing against people you already played 20+ times the outcome of the lane should not be taken for granted.
On July 26 2011 01:25 GrimAngel wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 01:09 r33k wrote:
Janna and Taric are the only characters on whom Aegis is a viable item pickup. How come other supports shouldn't get Aegis? I thought it was a good item for all supports?
I hate aegis, it's one of my pet peeves. Too much gold, too little stats for you.
On July 26 2011 01:29 Southlight wrote:
AP Sona can do essentially the same thing, but better, is more-or-less my point. And Sona's teamfight is significantly better because of DAT ULT.
I loved full AP solo top Sona as much as the next guy back when she was OP, but right now she is too squishy to be viable. Playing her with HP/level yellows that is.
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Might as well just make it clear that Taric having 60AP + good mana regen (i.e. if instead of aegis you get the gold-equivalent 4x dring) is more useful to his team than everyone getting 12 armor and 15 MR.
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And in DH they didn't really pick good bottom lane matchups, played incredibly safe (due to reasons pointed out throughout this subforum), and generally didn't even have a decent Janna player anyways. For instance take Janna Corki against Ashe Soraka and you'll just zone them.
Edit:
I play all supports (except Sora) with flat armor runes. Sona ends up being incredibly tough to kill, and requires heavy CC commitment to "gib" her pre-ult, and if she lands an ult if you try to gib her then your team has wonderful positioning. She's no more squishy than the good pure AP Soraka style.
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On July 26 2011 01:30 r33k wrote:
I hate aegis, it's one of my pet peeves. Too much gold, too little stats for you.
wat
it's like the most cost efficient non-stack item in the game even just considering the self-stats. throw in the aura stats (especially when they stacked on minions x_x) and it's a top-tier item. i get that shit in every game that i'm the jungler. the MR aura alone like... negates all MPen runes the enemy team could run.
i don't run it on supports except soraka or janna tho, and only midgame on them.
major quoting fail by me real tard
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Also I personally see Janna being more similiar to, say, Leona, Croc or Galio than to the other supports. She's a counterinitiator and a constant linebacker.
On July 26 2011 01:33 Southlight wrote:
And in DH they didn't really pick good bottom lane matchups, played incredibly safe (due to reasons pointed out throughout this subforum), and generally didn't even have a decent Janna player anyways. For instance take Janna Corki against Ashe Soraka and you'll just zone them.
Edit:
I play all supports (except Sora) with flat armor runes. Sona ends up being incredibly tough to kill, and requires heavy CC commitment to "gib" her pre-ult, and if she lands an ult if you try to gib her then your team has wonderful positioning. She's no more squishy than the good pure AP Soraka style.
After lv6 Sona becomes really strong, before that she is hella squishy from my experience, but that might just depend on runes. I usually went health/lvl yellows. Corki/Janna is autowin against Ashe/Soraka simply because it's 2 earlygame characters against a lategame and a character with no aggression.
On July 26 2011 01:34 gtrsrs wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 01:30 r33k wrote:
How come other supports shouldn't get Aegis? I thought it was a good item for all supports? I hate aegis, it's one of my pet peeves. Too much gold, too little stats for you.wat it's like the most cost efficient non-stack item in the game even just considering the self-stats. throw in the aura stats (especially when they stacked on minions x_x) and it's a top-tier item. i get that shit in every game that i'm the jungler. the MR aura alone like... negates all MPen runes the enemy team could run. i don't run it on supports except soraka or janna tho, and only midgame on them.
It's actually not cost efficient at all on a support that has to wait for 2 gold/5 items+boots+wards. Any support who isn't called Taric or Janna benefits more from going full kite mode and getting a shurelias.
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Is the statement: "Janna is by far the most farm-independent support" still valid?
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In lane the ideal situation for Janna (similar to Sona) is that you level W most (or Q in Sona's case), get a level of E to prevent creep damage on your carry, and just gun the other lane down. Most of the damage being dealt should be on Janna/Sona, letting the carry run wild and take minimal damage while last hitting and outputting maximum damage. Hence the armor runes and the 6 health potion opening. The moment you start having to level shield/heal the more inefficient and weaker Janna/Sona become in terms of laning presence - you're better off grabbing Taric/Sora as pure babysitters in that sense.
Edit;
On July 26 2011 01:38 Juicyfruit wrote:
Is the statement: "Janna is by far the most farm-independent support" still valid?
I think so, but she's also the most team-reliant.
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On July 26 2011 01:38 Southlight wrote:In lane the ideal situation for Janna (similar to Sona) is that you level W most (or Q in Sona's case), get a level of E to prevent creep damage on your carry, and just gun the other lane down. Most of the damage being dealt should be on Janna/Sona, letting the carry run wild and take minimal damage while last hitting and outputting maximum damage. Hence the armor runes and the 6 health potion opening. The moment you start having to level shield/heal the more inefficient and weaker Janna/Sona become in terms of laning presence - you're better off grabbing Taric/Sora as pure babysitters in that sense. Edit; Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 01:38 Juicyfruit wrote:
Is the statement: "Janna is by far the most farm-independent support" still valid? I think so, but she's also the most team-reliant.
I 100% agree with you but the thing is, not being able to have a fixed build means that you know you might be set back. That is a very realistic possibility.
Also as of a few months ago HP>EHP. Another reason for aegis falling off the scene.
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Indeed, hence why I'm not saying she's boss, but people keep saying she's weak and it's like no, she's pretty strong, she's just not all-round like Soraka and to an extent Taric >_>
On July 26 2011 00:37 Southlight wrote:
Janna: if I'm laning with a good early-game burst AD hero, feel confident that we can jump out to a lead, and want to guarantee keeping the lead and locking down the other team, she's the pick.
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On July 26 2011 01:46 Southlight wrote:Indeed, hence why I'm not saying she's boss, but people keep saying she's weak and it's like no, she's pretty strong, she's just not all-round like Soraka and to an extent Taric >_> Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 00:37 Southlight wrote:
Janna: if I'm laning with a good early-game burst AD hero, feel confident that we can jump out to a lead, and want to guarantee keeping the lead and locking down the other team, she's the pick.
I still like Taric better because of the -armor which makes him better at odd levels, but I can definitely see Janna being better at even levels when you don't usually expect lanes to go on the offensive.
Those are also the levels when the jungler will be 1-2 levels above bot lane and could provide great assistance.
AP Janna is a fun solo mid tho, I don't like playing her bot lane ;o
Also I think I missed the TL reactions from the "annie is fine, l2p" statement from morello. Mad? Happy?
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On July 26 2011 01:35 r33k wrote:Also I personally see Janna being more similiar to, say, Leona, Croc or Galio than to the other supports. She's a counterinitiator and a constant linebacker. Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 01:33 Southlight wrote:
And in DH they didn't really pick good bottom lane matchups, played incredibly safe (due to reasons pointed out throughout this subforum), and generally didn't even have a decent Janna player anyways. For instance take Janna Corki against Ashe Soraka and you'll just zone them.
Edit:
I play all supports (except Sora) with flat armor runes. Sona ends up being incredibly tough to kill, and requires heavy CC commitment to "gib" her pre-ult, and if she lands an ult if you try to gib her then your team has wonderful positioning. She's no more squishy than the good pure AP Soraka style. After lv6 Sona becomes really strong, before that she is hella squishy from my experience, but that might just depend on runes. I usually went health/lvl yellows. Corki/Janna is autowin against Ashe/Soraka simply because it's 2 earlygame characters against a lategame and a character with no aggression. Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 01:34 gtrsrs wrote:On July 26 2011 01:30 r33k wrote:
How come other supports shouldn't get Aegis? I thought it was a good item for all supports? I hate aegis, it's one of my pet peeves. Too much gold, too little stats for you.wat it's like the most cost efficient non-stack item in the game even just considering the self-stats. throw in the aura stats (especially when they stacked on minions x_x) and it's a top-tier item. i get that shit in every game that i'm the jungler. the MR aura alone like... negates all MPen runes the enemy team could run. i don't run it on supports except soraka or janna tho, and only midgame on them. It's actually not cost efficient at all on a support that has to wait for 2 gold/5 items+boots+wards. Any support who isn't called Taric or Janna benefits more from going full kite mode and getting a shurelias.
um no you must be confusing what the word "efficient" means
FOR THE GOLD YOU SPEND you get much better stats on aegis than any other non-full-stacked item. it has nothing to do with when you get the item or what other items you have. just in terms of gold efficiency it's great
it's fine to say you'd rather get other items on supports (i do!) but to say aegis is an inefficient item is just tard-mode. it's a great jungler item and a good all-round defensive item when you need a little of everything on someone. when you can get two people with aegis in tandem so that they both benefit doubly from the stats, they are both essentially unkillable in the midgame. amumu + a support with aegis = amumu can literally 1v5
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Aegis is definitely the most cost efficient HP/armor/MR item in the game. I just don't like it because it gives few of it anyways, and I'd rather build two big items than buy Aegis and delay a bit item.
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On July 26 2011 01:34 gtrsrs wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 01:30 r33k wrote:
I hate aegis, it's one of my pet peeves. Too much gold, too little stats for you. wat it's like the most cost efficient non-stack item in the game even just considering the self-stats. throw in the aura stats (especially when they stacked on minions x_x) and it's a top-tier item. i get that shit in every game that i'm the jungler. the MR aura alone like... negates all MPen runes the enemy team could run. i don't run it on supports except soraka or janna tho, and only midgame on them. major quoting fail by me real tard
270 HP = 712.5
30 Armor = 500
39 MRes = 650
8 AD = 328
2160.5 gold in self stats for 1925 gold, 112.23% efficiency
emblem of valor
17% Lifesteal = 637.5
10 HP/5 = 312.5
950 gold in self stats for 800 gold, 118.75% efficiency
*trollface.jpg*
problem summoner?
I won't even bother going into Doran's items or wriggles or triforce (funny story, triforce is more gold efficient than Aegis without counting the MS, Slow Proc, or Sheen proc).
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someone on this forum (was it TheYango? or WaveOfShadow?) did the mathcrafting to show that aegis + negatron + chainmail gave more hp, armor, and MR than any combination of comparably priced items (banshee, sunfire + null mantle or something, etc etc), and you can always turn the negatron and chainmail into "big" items in the lategame and sell the aegis for a guardian later.
when i read that post is when i started following that suggestion and i'm inclined to agree. sure you miss out on some of the big items passives (oh noes! no 35-lowered-by-MR aoe dps Q_Q! no more spell bubble that karthus pops from 1000 range with lay waste anyways Q_Q!) but the aura combined with the self-protection just makes you a midgame MONSTER, which is where most games are won anyways
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