"MVP Black players don't have better individual skills than other pro teams. There is no real difference of individual skills between pro players"
"It's 90% drafting, some shotcalling and a bit of synergy I guess".
"When I watch Rich play, I tell myself "ok so he practiced that". One hour of practice and I could do that".
"There was this thread on reddit about some "crazy Falstad play". Wow there was 4 enemies and he used his ability to escape, so crazy !" (sarcastic tone)
Seems like a pretty silly comment. MVP_Black may not be miles ahead mechanically. HOTS by it's design is more difficult to dominate as an individual, but watch Rich in hero league streams and you can't say it's just because he is on a great team with great shot calling and drafting that he is dominant. Arthelon might be able to replicate some of Rich's plays with some practice, but replicating something in practice and replicating it in competitive games isn't the same thing and you still need to put in that hour or more of practice. Certainly other games have higher skill ceilings and some heroes have fairly low skill ceilings, but you aren't swapping any pro player for Rich and getting the same results for each team (even if both pros who were being swapped could fluently speak the other's language).
"MVP Black players don't have better individual skills than other pro teams. There is no real difference of individual skills between pro players"
"It's 90% drafting, some shotcalling and a bit of synergy I guess".
"When I watch Rich play, I tell myself "ok so he practiced that". One hour of practice and I could do that".
"There was this thread on reddit about some "crazy Falstad play". Wow there was 4 enemies and he used his ability to escape, so crazy !" (sarcastic tone)
Seems like a pretty silly comment. MVP_Black may not be miles ahead mechanically. HOTS by it's design is more difficult to dominate as an individual, but watch Rich in hero league streams and you can't say it's just because he is on a great team with great shot calling and drafting that he is dominant. Arthelon might be able to replicate some of Rich's plays with some practice, but replicating something in practice and replicating it in competitive games isn't the same thing and you still need to put in that hour or more of practice. Certainly other games have higher skill ceilings and some heroes have fairly low skill ceilings, but you aren't swapping any pro player for Rich and getting the same results for each team (even if both pros who were being swapped could fluently speak the other's language).
I think it would be a lot sillier of a comment if he had posted this opinion on reddit himself. Instead, it's just a few statements he made in the middle of a stream, which is kind of hard to assess the seriousness of. (Especially when he goes on to say he doesn't find the game fun and that he's been waiting for two years for the game to become something he feels is a good game)
On the positive side of things, it sounds like he's really enjoying playing for C9 right now.
Oh I wish there would be no individual skill involved in this game. It would be so much more chill if you only had to make sure team coordinations works fine.
On May 12 2016 05:53 FeyFey wrote: Oh I wish there would be no individual skill involved in this game. It would be so much more chill if you only had to make sure team coordinations works fine.
I think he is making a statement about skill differences between pro players, not in the general masses.
There isn't really much mechanical skill. The difference at the top is that really good players have superior tactical knowledge and are thus able to optimally leverage their heroes' capabilities and potential. This allows them to be far more aggressive (and succeed at it) than the rest of us.
On May 12 2016 05:57 xDaunt wrote: There isn't really much mechanical skill. The difference at the top is that really good players have superior tactical knowledge and are thus able to optimally leverage their heroes' capabilities and potential. This allows them to be far more aggressive (and succeed at it) than the rest of us.
Still you see large differences in mechanical skill amongst the top teams imo. MVPblack is winning much more on mechanics I think then people make it out to be. You see questionable strategic moves from them quite often but they just win 4v5s and that sort of stuff by sheer great mechanics. When i watch them compared to EU or NA games the amount of missed skillshots is quite a bit less.
"Skill" is such a nebulous term in a moba though. Knowledge, foresight and conviction play such a huge role in making you good at the game. If you don't value/enjoy expressing those factors in a game than a moba probably isn't for you.
Arthelon is definitely talking about pro players, and I presume he is talking about the top pro teams and not the "pro" teams that never place top 4 ever. Still there is certainly mechanical skill level differences between Bakery and Merryday's Kharazim and the average pro support playing that hero. There are differences in Glaurung's Zeratul and the average pro player's Zeratul. Bakery commented that the western teams at Spring World Championship couldn't currently play Tyrael to the level the Chinese and Korean teams did, and it would take several months before they likely would. Tyrael section is several minutes, but goes in depth on the issues leading to western teams not learning him to the level of the Asian teams:
Make sure you hear Grubby ask how teams should learn Tyrael for pro play. HOTS isn't the most mechanically demanding game by any stretch, but unless you are hitting 100% of your skill shots and dodging 100% of the dodge-able skill shots and always have perfect positioning and perfect timing on when to use your abilities you can't say there is zero room for mechanical improvement or that every pro player does it at the same level.
Certainly every game isn't 90% determined by draft as we have casters giving consensus that one team won the draft and then the other team wins the game all the time. Teams want more talented players, and players who have toxic reputations sometimes get another chance because of their talent, see Rich and Erho. It's very fair to say that individual skill plays less of a role in why pro teams win HOTS games compared to other games, but it's not accurate to say every pro player is at the same skill level.
On May 12 2016 05:53 FeyFey wrote: Oh I wish there would be no individual skill involved in this game. It would be so much more chill if you only had to make sure team coordinations works fine.
I think he is making a statement about skill differences between pro players, not in the general masses.
So he is saying that people who scrim against each other, because they are at the top and the best opponents to train against are fairly even in skill level. Fascinating !
Don't mind me, I just get silly when people state the obvious when talking about "skill".
But he should be careful. Things like this can easily turn you into a blame the team person, as a result you feel less inclined to work on yourself and instead of just getting mad at your own mistakes you get mad at your teams mistakes. Which in heroes is 4 times more likely to happen.
On May 12 2016 05:53 FeyFey wrote: Oh I wish there would be no individual skill involved in this game. It would be so much more chill if you only had to make sure team coordinations works fine.
I think he is making a statement about skill differences between pro players, not in the general masses.
So he is saying that people who scrim against each other, because they are at the top and the best opponents to train against are fairly even in skill level. Fascinating !
Don't mind me, I just get silly when people state the obvious when talking about "skill".
But he should be careful. Things like this can easily turn you into a blame the team person, as a result you feel less inclined to work on yourself and instead of just getting mad at your own mistakes you get mad at your teams mistakes. Which in heroes is 4 times more likely to happen.
Specifically he was claiming that pro matches are decided by the draft, shot calling, and playstyle synergies--- not raw mechanical skill.
"MVP Black players don't have better individual skills than other pro teams. There is no real difference of individual skills between pro players"
"It's 90% drafting, some shotcalling and a bit of synergy I guess".
"When I watch Rich play, I tell myself "ok so he practiced that". One hour of practice and I could do that".
"There was this thread on reddit about some "crazy Falstad play". Wow there was 4 enemies and he used his ability to escape, so crazy !" (sarcastic tone)
Seems like a pretty silly comment. MVP_Black may not be miles ahead mechanically. HOTS by it's design is more difficult to dominate as an individual, but watch Rich in hero league streams and you can't say it's just because he is on a great team with great shot calling and drafting that he is dominant. Arthelon might be able to replicate some of Rich's plays with some practice, but replicating something in practice and replicating it in competitive games isn't the same thing and you still need to put in that hour or more of practice. Certainly other games have higher skill ceilings and some heroes have fairly low skill ceilings, but you aren't swapping any pro player for Rich and getting the same results for each team (even if both pros who were being swapped could fluently speak the other's language).
Yeah, no one in the world is on Rich level. I've always been a proponent that shotcalling and drafting were by far the most distinguishing skills in Heroes of the Storm, but every time I watch Rich play, he wins a lot of fights by just being mechanically better than the other team.
EDIT: I also find it a bit funny that he says this while playing Abathur, which he is pretty terrible at. Fan is like 5 tiers above him when it comes to playing Abathur.
"MVP Black players don't have better individual skills than other pro teams. There is no real difference of individual skills between pro players"
"It's 90% drafting, some shotcalling and a bit of synergy I guess".
"When I watch Rich play, I tell myself "ok so he practiced that". One hour of practice and I could do that".
"There was this thread on reddit about some "crazy Falstad play". Wow there was 4 enemies and he used his ability to escape, so crazy !" (sarcastic tone)
Seems like a pretty silly comment. MVP_Black may not be miles ahead mechanically. HOTS by it's design is more difficult to dominate as an individual, but watch Rich in hero league streams and you can't say it's just because he is on a great team with great shot calling and drafting that he is dominant. Arthelon might be able to replicate some of Rich's plays with some practice, but replicating something in practice and replicating it in competitive games isn't the same thing and you still need to put in that hour or more of practice. Certainly other games have higher skill ceilings and some heroes have fairly low skill ceilings, but you aren't swapping any pro player for Rich and getting the same results for each team (even if both pros who were being swapped could fluently speak the other's language).
Yeah, no one in the world is on Rich level. I've always been a proponent that shotcalling and drafting were by far the most distinguishing skills in Heroes of the Storm, but every time I watch Rich play, he wins a lot of fights by just being mechanically better than the other team.
EDIT: I also find it a bit funny that he says this while playing Abathur, which he is pretty terrible at. Fan is like 5 tiers above him when it comes to playing Abathur.
There is so much wrong with his comments that you don't know where to start... He wants to tell me that there is no difference between Dunktrain and Merryday? Like their understanding of positioning, shotcalling, healing the right targets, understanding how much damage can the target take, movement... is worlds apart. Not to show disrespect to Dunktrain, I like the guy but he can't be compared to Merrday, pretty much no other support player can. Same could be said about Sake or Rich and even Sign... KyoCha's isn't necessarily better than other players but his strength isn't individual skill but versatility when it come to heroes, he can play everything and I think that he is a pro player with most different heroes played in pro games. It is hilarious hearing something like that from Arthelon, it sounds more like a complex than anything else. If he seriously thinks that he is quite delusional.
Guy that opened that thread on reddit also asked him about laning and if Rich isn't better than the rest how come he almost always wins a lane? To what Arthelon responded with "there is no laning in hots" yeah of course, sounds like a classical butthurt guy giving half-assed answers.
To be honest, I think Arth is just a salty kinda guy. He said he doesn't enjoy the game much, and clearly he was bummed about losing the final + C9's other slip ups leading to the whole "C9 aren't on top of NA/the world anymore". A natural competitor's response isn't "all those guys are better than us" it's "they're not better, they just got lucky" or whatever.
So yes, his comments are stupid, but I think born out of salt and frustration rather than sincere belief. The "draft decides 90% of games" etc is exactly the kind of rhetoric that comes from someone who is on tilt.
"MVP Black players don't have better individual skills than other pro teams. There is no real difference of individual skills between pro players"
"It's 90% drafting, some shotcalling and a bit of synergy I guess".
"When I watch Rich play, I tell myself "ok so he practiced that". One hour of practice and I could do that".
"There was this thread on reddit about some "crazy Falstad play". Wow there was 4 enemies and he used his ability to escape, so crazy !" (sarcastic tone)
Seems like a pretty silly comment. MVP_Black may not be miles ahead mechanically. HOTS by it's design is more difficult to dominate as an individual, but watch Rich in hero league streams and you can't say it's just because he is on a great team with great shot calling and drafting that he is dominant. Arthelon might be able to replicate some of Rich's plays with some practice, but replicating something in practice and replicating it in competitive games isn't the same thing and you still need to put in that hour or more of practice. Certainly other games have higher skill ceilings and some heroes have fairly low skill ceilings, but you aren't swapping any pro player for Rich and getting the same results for each team (even if both pros who were being swapped could fluently speak the other's language).
Yeah, no one in the world is on Rich level. I've always been a proponent that shotcalling and drafting were by far the most distinguishing skills in Heroes of the Storm, but every time I watch Rich play, he wins a lot of fights by just being mechanically better than the other team.
EDIT: I also find it a bit funny that he says this while playing Abathur, which he is pretty terrible at. Fan is like 5 tiers above him when it comes to playing Abathur.
Heh, he was commenting on bombard strain vs assault strain on the stream, so he was clearly just experimenting
I think a part of the problem with this entire discussion is we don't have a definition of "mechanics". Does knowing when you can dive into a fight mechanics? Or is it just the literal ability to press combinations of keys rapidly and "out-micro" an opponent?
Typically when I hear mechanics I think of a strong macro game in starcraft, but that doesn't really apply in heroes. If mechanics includes our general term of "gamesense" (knowing when you can dive with illidan, how to be greedy, etc), then it is both a much more difficult thing to define, but clearly there is some difference at the pro level.
"MVP Black players don't have better individual skills than other pro teams. There is no real difference of individual skills between pro players"
"It's 90% drafting, some shotcalling and a bit of synergy I guess".
"When I watch Rich play, I tell myself "ok so he practiced that". One hour of practice and I could do that".
"There was this thread on reddit about some "crazy Falstad play". Wow there was 4 enemies and he used his ability to escape, so crazy !" (sarcastic tone)
Seems like a pretty silly comment. MVP_Black may not be miles ahead mechanically. HOTS by it's design is more difficult to dominate as an individual, but watch Rich in hero league streams and you can't say it's just because he is on a great team with great shot calling and drafting that he is dominant. Arthelon might be able to replicate some of Rich's plays with some practice, but replicating something in practice and replicating it in competitive games isn't the same thing and you still need to put in that hour or more of practice. Certainly other games have higher skill ceilings and some heroes have fairly low skill ceilings, but you aren't swapping any pro player for Rich and getting the same results for each team (even if both pros who were being swapped could fluently speak the other's language).
Yeah, no one in the world is on Rich level. I've always been a proponent that shotcalling and drafting were by far the most distinguishing skills in Heroes of the Storm, but every time I watch Rich play, he wins a lot of fights by just being mechanically better than the other team.
EDIT: I also find it a bit funny that he says this while playing Abathur, which he is pretty terrible at. Fan is like 5 tiers above him when it comes to playing Abathur.
Heh, he was commenting on bombard strain vs assault strain on the stream, so he was clearly just experimenting
I think a part of the problem with this entire discussion is we don't have a definition of "mechanics". Does knowing when you can dive into a fight mechanics? Or is it just the literal ability to press combinations of keys rapidly and "out-micro" an opponent?
Typically when I hear mechanics I think of a strong macro game in starcraft, but that doesn't really apply in heroes. If mechanics includes our general term of "gamesense" (knowing when you can dive with illidan, how to be greedy, etc), then it is both a much more difficult thing to define, but clearly there is some difference at the pro level.
My two cents on this. Mechanics is your ability to play the game as efficiently as possible. This translates into precisely and quickly and precisely positioning your char/units, accurately hitting your abilities/spells, quickly splitting/dodging away from harmful effects/abilities, accurately stutter-stepping, focus firing and stutter stepping focusing.
Knowing how far you can dive to get a kill is mostly a matter of experience, knowing the damage output of your hero relative to the enemy hero and how much you can dish out before retaliation.
"MVP Black players don't have better individual skills than other pro teams. There is no real difference of individual skills between pro players"
"It's 90% drafting, some shotcalling and a bit of synergy I guess".
"When I watch Rich play, I tell myself "ok so he practiced that". One hour of practice and I could do that".
"There was this thread on reddit about some "crazy Falstad play". Wow there was 4 enemies and he used his ability to escape, so crazy !" (sarcastic tone)
Seems like a pretty silly comment. MVP_Black may not be miles ahead mechanically. HOTS by it's design is more difficult to dominate as an individual, but watch Rich in hero league streams and you can't say it's just because he is on a great team with great shot calling and drafting that he is dominant. Arthelon might be able to replicate some of Rich's plays with some practice, but replicating something in practice and replicating it in competitive games isn't the same thing and you still need to put in that hour or more of practice. Certainly other games have higher skill ceilings and some heroes have fairly low skill ceilings, but you aren't swapping any pro player for Rich and getting the same results for each team (even if both pros who were being swapped could fluently speak the other's language).
Yeah, no one in the world is on Rich level. I've always been a proponent that shotcalling and drafting were by far the most distinguishing skills in Heroes of the Storm, but every time I watch Rich play, he wins a lot of fights by just being mechanically better than the other team.
EDIT: I also find it a bit funny that he says this while playing Abathur, which he is pretty terrible at. Fan is like 5 tiers above him when it comes to playing Abathur.
Heh, he was commenting on bombard strain vs assault strain on the stream, so he was clearly just experimenting
I think a part of the problem with this entire discussion is we don't have a definition of "mechanics". Does knowing when you can dive into a fight mechanics? Or is it just the literal ability to press combinations of keys rapidly and "out-micro" an opponent?
Typically when I hear mechanics I think of a strong macro game in starcraft, but that doesn't really apply in heroes. If mechanics includes our general term of "gamesense" (knowing when you can dive with illidan, how to be greedy, etc), then it is both a much more difficult thing to define, but clearly there is some difference at the pro level.
My two cents on this. Mechanics is your ability to play the game as efficiently as possible. This translates into precisely and quickly and precisely positioning your char/units, accurately hitting your abilities/spells, quickly splitting/dodging away from harmful effects/abilities, accurately stutter-stepping, focus firing and stutter stepping focusing.
Knowing how far you can dive to get a kill is mostly a matter of experience, knowing the damage output of your hero relative to the enemy hero and how much you can dish out before retaliation.
And I think there is a fine line in mechanical skill that separates players. I noticed this in the DH finals, BoE, with Zuna on Kael'thas. It seemed like he didn't miss a gravity lapse.
Say an ability has an 8 second cooldown. That means every 8 seconds you could theoretically hit an opponent and do damage/stun/whatever. Putting yourself in a position to make the absolute best use of this is one thing. Actually hitting every single one - or as close to as possible - to ensure that everything is useful, everything has value - that's where real skill lies imo. Anyone can pick up Kael and do a shit load of damage with him. A very select few can hit every single E, position every single Q perfectly, use phoenix perfectly, and so on.
There is some grey area on what mechanics encompass, but even at the most basic level of moving your character and hitting skill shots with correct timing, every pro is not at the same level. Positioning is part of mechanics. Body blocking is mechanics. Dodging skill shots is mechanics. Timing your abilities to sync with your team, or to focus the right target the instant they are out of position. Every pro isn't at the same level on those areas. Sure another pro might be able to duplicate Rich's individual moves some of the time with practice, but Rich pulls them off almost all of the time with precise timing during pro games. Pro players lose games all the time just to missing skill shots, poor positioning, or not dodging a critical skill shot by the other team. Even simple mechanical and decision making errors can cost teams a game. iDream basically seals C9's loss in game 5 vs Naventic with his terrible positioning on Sylvanas:
I don't think that had anything to do with shot calling or the draft. At least one of the "equally skilled" warrior players from NA or EU should be on MVP_Sign's level with Tyrael by now if the mechanics were so simple that an hour of practice would get them there. Maybe by the summer championship they will be.
On May 13 2016 02:32 karazax wrote: There is some grey area on what mechanics encompass, but even at the most basic level of moving your character and hitting skill shots with correct timing, every pro is not at the same level. Positioning is part of mechanics. Body blocking is mechanics. Dodging skill shots is mechanics. Timing your abilities to sync with your team, or to focus the right target the instant they are out of position. Every pro isn't at the same level on those areas. Sure another pro might be able to duplicate Rich's individual moves some of the time with practice, but Rich pulls them off almost all of the time with precise timing during pro games. Pro players lose games all the time just to missing skill shots, poor positioning, or not dodging a critical skill shot by the other team. Even simple mechanical and decision making errors can cost teams a game. iDream basically seals C9's loss in game 5 vs Naventic with his terrible positioning on Sylvanas: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaS6-I8ZZnM&t=31m0s I don't think that had anything to do with shot calling or the draft. At least one of the "equally skilled" warrior players from NA or EU should be on MVP_Sign's level with Tyrael by now if the mechanics were so simple that an hour of practice would get them there. Maybe by the summer championship they will be.
This. I think it's incredibly silly when these pro's call the draft so important compared to the mechanics and the play. The drafts are extremely predictable and go the same way very often, teams really aren't making the big difference there. Mechanics and teamwork decide the outcome most of the time.
EPT
